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Athletic Dir [865]
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ESPN article....is this right?
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Sep 25, 2023, 12:15 PM
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Thoughts about this part? Is this a correct assessment as to the trend of Clemson Football?
"For so long, Clemson dominated those margins. From 2015 to 2020 -- the glory years in Death Valley -- Clemson was an astounding 24-6 when losing the turnover margin. In the past three seasons, it's 7-6. From 2015 to 2020, Clemson was 18-4 in one-possession games, an elite mark. Over the past three seasons, it's a more mundane 8-4. During those glory years, the Tigers were 13-7 after being tied or trailing in the second half, the third-best mark in the country. Since 2021, they're 5-8.
The point isn't that Clemson has bad luck now. Its luck looks more or less as one would expect. It looks, well, average. But before this run, Clemson's roster was so good, so filled with legendary talents like Trevor Lawrence and Travis Etienne Jr. and Tee Higgins, that luck had nothing to do with it. The Tigers won because they were flat-out better than everyone else. Now, they're experiencing life as mere mortals."
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38470661/clemson-dabo-swinney-struggling-not-panic-2023
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Legend [17805]
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Athletic Dir [865]
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Re: ESPN article....is this right? I think so
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Sep 25, 2023, 12:49 PM
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Thanks
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Orange Blooded [3637]
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Re: ESPN article....is this right?
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Sep 25, 2023, 12:21 PM
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Maybe... not all turnovers are created equal.
For some of that time our offense thrived on 50/50 balls, and so a turnover was something we were willing to tolerate because oftentimes we would win the jump ball and even if the defender did get it it was downfield and kind of like a punt.
Bad... but it was what we did and we had a good defense so not really momentum shifting.
However, the past few years our offense hasn't been good and so the turnovers really are more damaging. And this year in specific the turnovers are catastrophic in that they are directly leading to points for the other team (pick 6 or scoop and score type deals).
So while I agree we've come back to Earth a bit on the numbers... the quality of these turnovers is really different than the ones during our '15-'18 run.
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Orange Blooded [4820]
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Re: ESPN article....is this right?
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Sep 25, 2023, 12:25 PM
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I'd say pretty accurate. DW4 and TL16 both threw a lot of INTs. But the talent we had on both sides of the ball always bailed us out. This year, there is not the same level of talent and really bad luck that a single missed block ends up as a 14 point swing of the game the other way.
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Orange Blooded [3561]
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Re: ESPN article....is this right?
Sep 25, 2023, 12:30 PM
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No.
As I recall, Cade Klubnik broke records at Westlake High School in Texas. A very elite high school program in Texas, one of the most successful high school football states. Cade was a 5-star. #1 QB in the country.
Will Shipley was a 5-star.
Receivers are of the same caliber (recruiting wise) as they ever were.
Just look at every position on our team, and there at least should be a 4-star playing at it, or at least a 3-star who has developed greatly.
There’s has never been a difference in recruiting talent that we have gotten since 2020. It’s just been the amount of commits we get. We still consistently grab 5-stars.
DJ was one of the highest rated QB recruits of all time. And for whatever reason, he never panned out. Even at Oregon State now, he is the same. Which proves that it was him. Along with Streeter. Along with transitioning from Brent Venables.
Our team has more roster talent than FSU. It was a glaring fact from how much faster we were playing than them.
I do think that other teams have obviously caught up with roster talent BECAUSE AND ONLY BECAUSE THE TRANSFER PORTAL. And this was implemented because teams like Clemson could not be beat.
So, no. They are incorrect once again.
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Athletic Dir [865]
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Re: ESPN article....is this right?
Sep 25, 2023, 12:46 PM
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So are you saying our coaching has diminished their talent?
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110%er [6453]
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Re: ESPN article....is this right?
Sep 25, 2023, 1:13 PM
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Yes, I’m saying that.
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CU Guru [1045]
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Re: ESPN article....is this right?
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Sep 25, 2023, 12:51 PM
[ in reply to Re: ESPN article....is this right? ] |
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No, they are correct. None of the receivers on the team have the physical abilities of Mike Williams, or Tee Higgins. None of the running backs have the physical abilities of Travis Etienne. None of the quarterbacks have the physical abilities of Trevor Lawrence or Deshaun Watson. The article is correct.
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All-Conference [439]
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Re: ESPN article....is this right?
Sep 25, 2023, 4:29 PM
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That's what I've been saying. This team still has good talent, but there is nobody on the roster with elite anything. Nobody on either side of the ball is making coordinators stay up late wondering how they're going to stop them. There isn't a Sammy Watkins who can blow the top off of any defense at any time. There isn't a Travis Etienne who can turn one missed tackle into a 75 yard TD. There isn't a Deshaun Watson who can improvise when everything breaks down and turn a busted play into a critical 1st down. There isn't a Dexter Lawrence who can occupy 2 or 3 offensive linemen to free up the rest of the front 7 to make plays. There isn't an Isaiah Simmons who can basically wreck your entire offensive gameplan from anywhere on the field. You can still win with "good" talent, but your coaching and gameplan better be rock solid, and ours is anything but that.
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CU Guru [1858]
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Re: ESPN article....is this right?
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Sep 25, 2023, 12:52 PM
[ in reply to Re: ESPN article....is this right? ] |
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You really think our WR room is the same caliber as 2019 and back? The delusion is real people. Feel free to update me on the NFL receiving stats of Ngata, Beaux Collins, Ladson, E.J. Williams, Ajou Ajou, Stellato, Will Swinney, etc. over the coming years. The 2019 and back guys are still collecting paychecks for Sunday ball.
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Hall of Famer [22336]
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Damm... Big Tig with the flamethrower. Hard to argue with any of that.
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Sep 25, 2023, 1:21 PM
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Athletic Dir [865]
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Head Coach [785]
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Re: ESPN article....is this right?
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Sep 25, 2023, 1:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: ESPN article....is this right? ] |
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TU Big Tig, this is spot on. I honestly don’t understand how anyone can say with a straight face our talent is the same. I’m not talking about recruiting rankings. Talent can be further developed and even if, on aggregate, our freshman talent is the same (I’d argue it’s not) we are not playing with anywhere near the same talent on the field. Any average sports fan who saw us in 2015-2018 and watching Clemson now can see that.
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All-TigerNet [13549]
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Re: ESPN article....is this right?
Sep 25, 2023, 1:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: ESPN article....is this right? ] |
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"I do think that other teams have obviously caught up with roster talent BECAUSE AND ONLY BECAUSE THE TRANSFER PORTAL. And this was implemented because teams like Clemson could not be beat."
So, if you are saying the portal, from a talent perspective, is being used to make other teams more competitive and catching up with us, would it not seem right to use the portal to supplement our better talent, to make us even more talented, and continue to maintain our talent edge?
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Orange Blooded [3629]
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Re: ESPN article....is this right?
Sep 25, 2023, 1:11 PM
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Well, we don’t use it by choice but .. our opponents portal players have been kicking our buts …
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Freshman [2]
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Re: ESPN article....is this right?
Sep 27, 2023, 8:35 AM
[ in reply to Re: ESPN article....is this right? ] |
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Again, last Saturday Dabo’s recruiting system outplayed all those big bad “portal” guys. There are many more duds that come through portal system than the stellar ones. It’s a deceptive fantasy much like winning the lottery or being jealous of some new gadget your neighbor just got. Reality is tough but the Tigers will work through this.
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Heisman Winner [140604]
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I don't trust the evaluation of others...
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Sep 25, 2023, 1:15 PM
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without doing my own first.
I didn't read the article, so I don't have an opinion on it.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: ESPN article....is this right?
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Sep 25, 2023, 2:02 PM
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The stats are right but I think there are a couple crucial misinterpretations. Our 247 total team talent index averaged 8th during our 6 year CFP run. So talent alone wasn’t winning those games. We may have been overcoming turnovers to win against regular season opponents but in the CFP we won the game if we tied or won the turnover margin and lost win we didn’t - except on 2016 when we lost turnover margin on both games. Our total talent index averages 5th over the last three years. So our team is as good top to bottom as good as it’s ever been, but weaker at the most important position, playing improved competition, and unable to overcome losing turnover margin in a way it accustomed too. Clemson won the turnover battle in 4 of 10 CFP games. They were 4-0 in those games and 2-4 in the games they lost turnover battle. I’d say it’s an area that needs focus.
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All-In [48402]
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Re: ESPN article....is this right?
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Sep 25, 2023, 2:35 PM
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Thanks for posting. I was just about to post it again. If you read it, you'll realize it's spot on. Those that say otherwise are ignorant, or just want to be a smart-ass.
This has been laid out by some posters here that seriously understand x and o's, jimmy and joes... then you have the posters who just want to be popular and make jokes.
T-Net forum used to be a place to come and enjoy good discussions such as these. Not so anymore.
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Legend [16158]
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POTD***
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Sep 25, 2023, 2:38 PM
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110%er [6139]
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Re: ESPN article....is this right?
Sep 27, 2023, 9:04 AM
[ in reply to Re: ESPN article....is this right? ] |
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Absolutely. Seems like we've always had a turnover problem and some questionable coaching decisions, but we had so much talent that we were able to overcome it. Now the really good players at non-P5 schools or that are blocked at a P5, are going to places where they can play which elevates the talent level across the board. It's really a few reasons why we are 1-4 in our last 4 P5 games - not enough attention to detail leading to turnovers and missed assignments, questionable coaching decisions, and not elevating our talent in positions of need through the portal as other teams are doing. We've been caught and the "luck" seems to have run out.
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Orange Blooded [2893]
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Re: ESPN article....is this right?
Sep 27, 2023, 9:14 AM
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The article makes fair points, but David Hale never misses an opportunity to show his disdain for Dabo. Too often his articles drip with it. Even when he’s right I find I can’t stand to read his articles.
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CU Medallion [65605]
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Pretty much the case. Our offense was so prolific under DW4
Sep 27, 2023, 9:17 AM
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or TL16 that we just shrugged off those turnovers for the most part. The talent level may have decreased some, but another aspect is that Clemson has lost that aura of "invincibility". We used to hit the field EXPECTING to win. Now we hit it HOPING to win. And, as a result, our opponents now see us as a "gettable" win on their schedule. It is going to take a whole lot of continuous winning to get back, in our OWN minds, to where we EXPECT to win again whenever we take the field.
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