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110%er [8008]
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What must be done eventually
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Mar 12, 2023, 8:46 PM
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should be done immediately. Giving Brownell another year accomplishes nothing. With 13 years of data, would 14 really matter?
However, I’m under no illusion Neff will make a bold move. I think another strongly worded letter from the AD is in our future.
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CU Medallion [56756]
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It will be done eventually. Brad can’t live forever.
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Mar 12, 2023, 8:49 PM
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None of us will. But he’ll stay at Clemson as long as he wants.
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All-In [31200]
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Re: It will be done eventually. Brad can’t live forever.
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Mar 12, 2023, 8:52 PM
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I believe you are correct. We are currently experiencing a utopia in Clemson basketball. No need to mess things up.😳
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CU Medallion [65037]
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All-TigerNet [13421]
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Re: What must be done eventually
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Mar 12, 2023, 8:52 PM
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The last letter wasn't very strongly worded. Basically, it said Brad and I agree that the goal is making the Big Dance and we need the plan to get there. No consequences for missing were discussed in public and if they were discussed in private then we will know that soon enough.
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
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AND HIRE WHO?
Mar 12, 2023, 8:59 PM
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Who are you going to get for a geographically disadvantaged basketball program with historically low support and get different results in todays one and done environment.
I'm all for winning. Convince me and those that have been in charge for over a decade they are total idiots for not firing him after last season.
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110%er [8008]
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Re: AND HIRE WHO?
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:13 PM
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It’s obvious nothing I say will change your mind, just as you’re not convincing me keeping Brad is in Clemson’s best interest. So why bother.
But the “AND HIRE WHO” mindset suggests there isn’t another coach out there who could do a better job at Clemson. I’m glad you weren’t the AD making the decision when Brad, oops, I mean Bowden was struggling to be a little more than mediocre.
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
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Re: AND HIRE WHO?
Mar 12, 2023, 9:18 PM
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That response is exactly why I'm challenging you.
Where did I say you were wrong about call for change? My point is you have no answer to my question.
I do like the Bowden recycled analogy bullschit. It's super fresh and data-driven.
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110%er [8008]
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Re: AND HIRE WHO?
Mar 12, 2023, 9:31 PM
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There are coaches I think would do a fantastic job at Clemson, but I’m sure anyone I list will only provide you an opportunity to pick apart with some bullschit excuses of why they wouldn’t come to Clemson, or why they wouldn’t win any more than Brad. You’re not wanting to discuss who might be better. You’re only interested in criticizing those of us who want and think Clemson deserves better.
As for the Bowden comparison…it’s just so appropriate, fresh or not.
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
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Gaslight on, Amigo.
Mar 12, 2023, 9:37 PM
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You either didn't comprehend my reply or you just. Can't. Answer. My. Question.
Either way, it's an L. Fire Brad right now for all I care. Have a Riley > Streeter-worthy comparison if you can, but I don't think you've got a clue.
No, it's really not. Not at all. Bowden was in charge of a NC winning football program. CU has never done a GD thing to achieve any basketball accolades. No? Arguments, please continue.
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110%er [8008]
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Re: Gaslight on, Amigo.
Mar 12, 2023, 9:51 PM
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You know where I stand. I’ve clearly stated my position. You seem to be bothered because I believe a change is needed. Then you say fire Brad now for all I care. So my question to you is…do you think Clemson should keep Brad or part ways? Without your usual insults please.
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
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Your posts have been passive aggressive at best.
Mar 12, 2023, 10:06 PM
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I asked you simple questions, but you seem intent on deflecting and evading it. No, not bothered in the slightest by your thoughts or opinion. I'm bothered by it being such a nebulous thought to so many "fans" of the program that can't answer such a simple question in return. So I'm calling it out. I'm open to the idea that Brad could be replaced by a better coach. Show me the money then. It's clear that neither of us are paid nor valued for our thoughts on why this hasn't happened, as disgruntled as we all are by our lack of success, but if someone is willing to say X, why get defensive when someone asks for your proposal for better...?
Only answer I can come up with is you "feel" a certain way but have to answer to the contrary, which is exactly where you are right now.
Do tell me where you feel I insulted you. Or is that more manipulation...
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110%er [8008]
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Re: Your posts have been passive aggressive at best.
Mar 12, 2023, 10:32 PM
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No manipulation by me. That’s not something I do, partly because I’m not very good at it. Lol
Your “simple question” seemed more like an attack to me. Maybe because of the all caps “AND HIRE WHO” in the title, coupled with the last sentence about convincing Clemson Admin what idiots they were for not firing him last year. If that wasn’t the case then I’m sorry for going there, but that’s why I didn’t answer you directly.
As for insults, it’s your condescending posts and frequently calling me and others clueless.
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
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It's not an attack at all. It's not an infrequent comment
Mar 12, 2023, 10:44 PM
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with no substantiation is the annoying part.
I'm still curious of the answer though.
Can you be more specific about my condescending posts and "frequency" of calling you clueless and or others? I didn't say you were clueless btw, I said "I don't think you've got a clue"
As to the topic I posed, characterized by you're still not answering it. I'm still there, no offense.
I guess you can see why I detect manipulation even after this post.
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110%er [8008]
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Re: It's not an attack at all. It's not an infrequent comment
Mar 12, 2023, 11:02 PM
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It’s not manipulation to chose to not answer a question I believe is only intended as a got ya. Why is it so important to you that I declare who I would want hired? I’m a former, long time season basketball ticket holder, but I have zero influence in hiring or firing anyone. That doesn’t change the fact I believe it’s time for a change.
Have a good night, BBO.
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
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Re: It's not an attack at all. It's not an infrequent comment
Mar 13, 2023, 12:45 AM
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It's not important. Nor is the fact you've decided not to answer anything I've opposed you've claimed otherwise.
It does though bolster my original assertion.
Best to you and yours.
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110%er [9165]
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Re: AND HIRE WHO?
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Mar 12, 2023, 11:06 PM
[ in reply to Re: AND HIRE WHO? ] |
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Instead of beating around the bush, make the suggestions and see what he says. In business we always say don’t bring up a problem unless you have a solution… what’s the solution?
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Orange Blooded [2750]
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How about this . . .
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Mar 13, 2023, 10:03 AM
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how about let's distinguish the ultimate solution from a proximate solution. The ultimate solution may be who to hire, but the proximate solution is to admit we have a problem and decide to move forward and do something about it. I think the reason he's not wanting to take the "and hire who?" bait is precisely b/c it is, indeed bait.
Asking who we should hire b/c you're genuinely interested in **that** facet of the solution - for it's own sake - is just fine. But to the extent it is a pretext for deflecting the question of whether or not Clemson should fire BB is another. The question could responded to this way: "Currently, I have no settled opinion on who we ought to hire, but do you deny that having a settled opinion is not a prerequisite to acknowledging that we need to move on? Or, do you believe that having that opinion **requires** an ultimate solution (a name) in mind?"
That's plenty fair. Who we might hire is fair enough question for general consideration, but it's certainly no requirement to coming ta conclusion on BB's status.
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110%er [8008]
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Re: How about this . . .
Mar 13, 2023, 12:40 PM
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Thank you. You stated that perfectly.
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Orange Blooded [2750]
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Sure thing . . .
Mar 13, 2023, 2:55 PM
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I think your point is totally fair. The candidate question is just an end-around. It's quite silly to think that a coach should be safe simply b/c there's no automatic candidate list.
After last season I sort of thought BB should have been let go, but I wasn't overly worked up about him being given one more year given the semi-"warning" from Neff. This year made the situation a tad tricky from a PR perspective, since we did have a good team and a decent season. But to see what we did with what we had sort of confirms the unfortunate truth. How will we ever make significant strides forward as a program if we can't even squeak out an NCAA invite (even as a low seed), when we have a team that was clearly good enough to have finished, say, 26-7, 28-5 (or, I would argue possibly even better, actually), rather than 23-10?
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
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A disingenuous response at best.
Mar 13, 2023, 3:24 PM
[ in reply to How about this . . . ] |
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You also failed to comprehend the entirety of my original response which begs the question how we overcome substantially more than some wondrous hire people claim will solve all the problems Clemson basketball has suffered for decades; far longer before we lost the last coach that failed at Clemson.
We have a problem. Ok, what should we do about it. Idk.......
You don't know because you're just an outsider looking in. That won't change no matter how often or how loud you whine about it.
If you want to really get into the weeds and RCCA, you just might need all the information to determine what the root cause is. Is it Brownell? Maybe. Then why has CU kept him all these years with similar results? Why has the program NEVER achieved anything more than an NCAA mid-tournament run since the 64 team format? Why such reluctance to address that portion of my question? No need to answer.
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Orange Blooded [2750]
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No, it's not disingenuous at all . . .
Mar 13, 2023, 4:18 PM
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No, there's no failure of comprehension underlying my response. I grant 100% that questions regarding structural/programmatic challenges, over and against the isolated issue of the Head Coach, are fair game for a full-orbed discussion on the program's trajectory. Fair enough, no beef there at all. Yeah, that is complicated and tough, and goes beyond the HC job itself. As such, I don't think that firing a coach ought to be done whilst ignoring these other factors you raise, as it if would be some sort of panacea. We had the likes of Rick Barnes and Oliver Purnell and couldn't keep them. Even when you get a gem of a coach it's not a cure-all. I get it. Right on and Amen.
That said, there's no reason to conflate attention to one issue (HC) with denial of the other factors. The question of whether to fire can't be reduced to "he's not the only problem," any more than whether to bench a QB comes down to whether or not other unit positions are up to snuff. All factors are, well, - factors. But that cuts both ways. And one factor (yes, admittedly, among many), is whether or not we're doing as well as we could reasonably be expected to do under Brad. Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge you or anyone else the prerogative to disagree on that. If someone concludes that our program's current challenges and limitations make Brad's real or perceived shortcomings virtually irrelevant, and that the downside of letting him go would outweigh the risk of a new hire (that we may lose some level of stability we have now), then fair enough. We can disagree on that, and that's fine. But none of that means that we can buy into a dichotomy of the decision in which one must have a candidate at the ready before that analysis is even broached. It simply does not follow that Brad is doing as well as could reasonably be expected **unless** we have an name ready.
Now, when it comes time to make that decision, I certainly don't endorse that Neff ought to pull the trigger w/o a plan or candidates, and just shoot from the hip w/o preparation. I'm not saying that. But a general assessment of whether it's time to move on cannot made by simply demanding a name. To say otherwise is to set up a false dichotomy that confuses the analysis and conflates issues.
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Orange Blooded [2750]
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correction: . . .
Mar 13, 2023, 4:32 PM
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in that one line, I should have said: "outweigh the **potential benefit**" (not "risk"). My bad.
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
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You won't find my arguing that Brad has shortcomings
Mar 13, 2023, 5:06 PM
[ in reply to No, it's not disingenuous at all . . . ] |
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or that he may not be the best coach for Clemson, but I don't know what I don't know. My original point wasn't a means to divert the attention from the argument as to why we should fire Brad, but a real question that certainly affects his ability to compete as well as calls into question why people in high places have allowed him to stay as long as he has, why other ACC coaches sing his praises and mention things like "Brad does a stellar job with significant challenges," or why no previous coaches have ever met any of the expectations we have of Brad and the program.
I want CU basketball to the best. I want that at whatever cost, but I can't stand this faction of fans that offer no enlightenment and or refuse to consider the problem just might be bigger than whatever coach is at the Helm. Bashful is the perfect example of one when challenged, selectively answered what he knew he could manipulate and shewed away the balance. Take a good look at the exchange we had. It's the same, tired, lazy and uninformed drivel spewed too often which has gotten us exactly nowhere in almost a century of basketball.
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Orange Blooded [2750]
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your original point -
Mar 13, 2023, 7:48 PM
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your original point may not have been aimed at distracting from whether or not he should be fired (and I've concurred with the legitimacy of the factors your referenced), but when one reduces that question/analysis to "who else do you have in mind?" ... then that definitely is, at that juncture, at least, a distraction from *that* part of the equation (of whether or not CBB is performing satisfactorily given the landscape here). Demanding a candidate name doesn't advance the argument that other legitimate factors ought to be included in the calculus. It only implies that having a ready-to-order solution is a prerequisite to noticing and assessing the HC's job performance under the circumstances.
None of this necessitates ignoring other factors. But that point doesn't justify ignoring or marginalizing this one either. If the landscape is very fraught and challenging for Clemson BB, and CBB is doing a superb job- as best as anyone could reasonably be expected to do, then ok. But I think what many folks believe is that all those challenges and limitations are real, and that CBB is adding a certain element of under-performance to the equation that is compounding the situation and making it unnecessarily more difficult to surmount those challenges. Maybe they're right, or maybe not, but none of this means we must be required to fully account for all the problems in the entire basketball landscape before we can justify concluding that Brownell is carrying his weight.
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Varsity [217]
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Bob Richey
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:14 PM
[ in reply to AND HIRE WHO? ] |
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The guy at Furman that Brad won’t play because he will get beat. Just like South Carolina
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
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You honestly think Brad is scared to play Bob?
Mar 12, 2023, 9:19 PM
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Bob is fantastic, but that is the dumbest comment of the day.
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Varsity [217]
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From Bobs mouth to my ears…
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:22 PM
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Is that stupid? Is it stupid that he knows if he loses to Furman it would be another nail in his coffin?
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
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Yes. It is. You're a random poster with no evidence.
Mar 12, 2023, 9:29 PM
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Maybe your neighbor, Bob, told you so. I just don't believe you. And actually thinking that would help support your argument makes you all the more awkward and ridiculous.
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Varsity [217]
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Well Bob Richey is in the tournament and…
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:37 PM
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we are not. Believe that
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
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Is this your first debate?
Mar 12, 2023, 9:39 PM
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Yikes.
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Varsity [217]
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Varsity [217]
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Legend [16058]
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There are TONS of GREAT coaches out there!!! Have you...
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:15 PM
[ in reply to AND HIRE WHO? ] |
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watched college basketball this year???
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
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Then answer me, tough guy.
Mar 12, 2023, 9:20 PM
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Answer the question instead of spewing nonsense because you don't even understand the game.
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CU Guru [1016]
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Re: Then answer me, tough guy.
Mar 13, 2023, 10:18 AM
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I see you didn’t even respond to MrMatt’s reasonable logic.
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
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Sorry, I don't live in a lazy boy.
Mar 13, 2023, 3:32 PM
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You can now read and get butthurt by my response therein as well.
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Scout Team [188]
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
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Beats being a lowbrow.***
Mar 13, 2023, 3:33 PM
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Orange Blooded [4086]
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Re: AND HIRE WHO?
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:16 PM
[ in reply to AND HIRE WHO? ] |
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Tell that to Tennessee and Auburn and Alabama...
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Varsity [217]
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Alabama was a nobody…
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:21 PM
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Now they are a somebody. We are a nobody and have been the whole time he has been here. The “who we gonna get” posts make me physically ill
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
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Trust me hoss, your response was barf-worthy.
Mar 12, 2023, 9:33 PM
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Mr. Bob Ritchie told me Brad is too scared to play me is gold...
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Varsity [217]
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Don’t you find it odd that Furman is …
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:39 PM
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right down the road and we don’t play them? You think we just can’t get the schedules to line up??
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
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We don't play Wofford every year either....
Mar 12, 2023, 9:41 PM
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Don't you find that odd???
BTW, Bob has been at Furman since 16. When did Brad get to Clemson? Was Brad scared to schedule Bob before Bob got to Furman?
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Varsity [217]
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We played South Carolina
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:44 PM
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And they beat us. Another embarrassing loss under this guy
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
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Umm, professor,
Mar 12, 2023, 9:50 PM
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we play them EvERY YeAR!!!!!
You're done. Stop responding. It's embarrassing.
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Varsity [217]
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Its called high expectations..
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:54 PM
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If you don't have them you will never achieve anything. What are Brads expectations? Do you even know? Win an ACC championship? Regular season? Go to the tourney every year? Every other year? Top 20 recruiting class? Please tell me
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Varsity [217]
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Dabos are..
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:58 PM
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1) win the opener 2) win the state championship 3) win the atlantic 4) win the conference 5) win the last one. You see these are MEASURABLE. He can measure his success based on his stated goals every year. He can see how he did and hold himself accountable. Brads?
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Varsity [217]
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Do you know why you don't know what his expectations are?
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Mar 12, 2023, 10:07 PM
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Because he doesnt tell anyone. Because if he did you would have something concrete to measure him by and then when he fell short he would not be able to extract $2 million a year from Clemson anymore like he has done for the last 13 years
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
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I'm going to let you off easy.
Mar 12, 2023, 10:10 PM
[ in reply to Its called high expectations.. ] |
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I have better debates with my neighbors' doorknob.
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Varsity [217]
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Thanks man that was a relief...
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Mar 12, 2023, 10:16 PM
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If you come up with any of Brads goals we would love to hear them. If they are go to the NCAA tourney 3/13 years, no regular season ACC championships, no ACC tourney championships/ (not even play for one), no Top 20 recruiting classes, no players in the NBA in 13 years he has accomplished them all
Night night smartest guy in the room
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
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How many titles did we obtain before Brad?
Mar 12, 2023, 10:20 PM
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How many appearances?
Your night night occurred before I ever, half-asleep, gave your nonsense a glance, hoss.
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Scout Team [158]
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Re: How many titles did we obtain before Brad?
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Mar 13, 2023, 1:00 AM
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John Schyer, Duke basketball coach, did something in his First year of coaching, at 35 years of age, that Clemson has never done in the history of the basketball program in
All Time : Won a ACC Championship Title .
Let that sink in
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Oculus Spirit [76751]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 28551
Joined: 12/1/18
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Speaking of sinking in,
Mar 13, 2023, 2:00 AM
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hola dementia.
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Legend [17522]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14121
Joined: 10/24/10
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Because Dabo Swinney & Nate Oats at Bama were sure things
Mar 13, 2023, 1:23 AM
[ in reply to AND HIRE WHO? ] |
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to push their teams to #1? #### no. You keep trying as a university and athletic dept until you strike gold. No one is asking Clemson to hire Bill Self. But Clemson had earlier career opportunities to hire Shaka Smart, Nate Oats, Gregg Marshall and others and were not proactive.
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CU Medallion [51986]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 22973
Joined: 10/10/11
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Re: AND HIRE WHO?
Mar 13, 2023, 5:54 PM
[ in reply to AND HIRE WHO? ] |
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We can be as good as any team. I don't agree that it's geographics and poor fan support. We've had some pretty great teams with standing-room-only type of support in LJ. I was there for every game for years. I will always support our players but have to admit that it's felt like groundhog day for quite some time. That is not conducive to sellouts in LJ. As for who to hire, break open the piggy bank and you'll receive interest from the best.
Time to move on to spring sports. Go Tigers!!!
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