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All-TigerNet [14312]
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Interesting...
Sep 17, 2013, 2:37 PM
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The good, the bad, the facts.
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Rock Defender [54]
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My problem summed up...only 6% unchurched
Sep 17, 2013, 2:46 PM
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Cam...that's the root of the obsession you say I have.
If these megachurches were reaching thousands of unchurched people here in our community, I'd probably be singing their praises....but the vast majority of growth is simply taking people from other churches.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Cam makes it sound like
Sep 17, 2013, 2:49 PM
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Witches covens are breaking up and heading to mega churches on a weekly basis.
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All-In [28802]
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only if you're being entirely uncharitable
Sep 17, 2013, 3:48 PM
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Which is exactly what I expect in here, I guess.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Charity...are you poor?
Sep 17, 2013, 3:51 PM
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Get out there and start a mega church. You're waisting your best material in the jounge. I'm sure there are plenty of abandoned K-Marts just waiting to be converted.
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All-In [28802]
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case in point***
Sep 17, 2013, 4:01 PM
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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I feel like my point has been made several times
Sep 17, 2013, 4:04 PM
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I feel like "Mega Churches" are truly and affront to God, and people who become millionaires off collections plates deserve a nice fiery afterlife. You seem to feel differently.
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All-In [28802]
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this is what I was responding to
Sep 17, 2013, 4:07 PM
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Which is just silliness: http://www.tigernet.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=14333018
Like I said, I wouldn't expect much more. Still, it's a little hard not to think that some of these criticisms aren't about something other than glorifying God when what's said is so lacking in charity.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Oh, no, someone not being serious in the jounge
Sep 17, 2013, 4:10 PM
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I didn't realize this was the serious theology discussion board. NO JOKES ALOUD CAM SAID SO!
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All-TigerNet [14312]
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I thought about you when I read the 72%.
Sep 17, 2013, 2:52 PM
[ in reply to My problem summed up...only 6% unchurched ] |
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Don't get me wrong, there is a time and place to leave a church for another, but not for entertainment sake.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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but what if they have stadium seating and electric guitars?
Sep 17, 2013, 2:53 PM
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What then?
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All-In [28802]
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so what's actually wrong with stadium seating...
Sep 17, 2013, 4:10 PM
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and electric guitars?
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Nothing
Sep 17, 2013, 4:11 PM
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But if I wanted to be entertained I would stay home and watch cartoons.
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All-In [28802]
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6% of 2,000 is still 120 people
Sep 17, 2013, 3:46 PM
[ in reply to My problem summed up...only 6% unchurched ] |
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And that's just in the "megachurches" that meet the minimum for megachurch membership. Obviously we're just talking about an average, but if a church somehow has 22,000 in attendance every Sunday (I don't even know how that's possible), then you're talking about more than 1000 of those people coming from unchurched backgrounds.
Keep in mind, also, that many of the people who are being counted as "churched" may be people who have some church affiliation but who rarely attended, or people who have become disaffected with one church (as is the case with a lot of former Catholics who feel that they were never taught the Bible) and who are looking for other church communities.
With that in mind, I don't really have a problem with people leaving one church to attend one of these megachurches. Where I think it becomes a problem is when people are leaving more traditional churches that require more of their members and moving to megachurches where it's easier to hide, even if the experience seems more authentic and modern. It's much more difficult to just be a face in the crowd on Sundays at a church of 100 than it is to disappear after the service in a church where 20,000 people are there.
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All-In [28802]
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I also think it's funny that the quotes from...
Sep 17, 2013, 3:59 PM
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some of the pastors they think make too much money are all about tithing, as if tithing is something that only money- grubbers care about. Of course you know it isn't. There's a clear heresy being preached by people like Joel Osteen who teach a "prosperity gospel," but unless you're telling people that material grace is ensured by the Gospel, I don't think it's wrong to preach about tithing every once in a while. Maybe some of the belly-aching should tell us just how unwilling people are to give that part of their lives to God (and maybe some of the other complaining is due to the immodesty with which some pastors and churches live... then again, shouldn't the architecture of churches remind us of God's glory? Would we really be better off if the Vatican sold off all its property and gave the money away?).
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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When I tithe
Sep 17, 2013, 4:02 PM
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I expect my money to be used for the greater good, not the greater good of the huckster scamming the masses every Sunday.
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Rock Defender [54]
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That's the problem...everyone wants their money going
Sep 17, 2013, 4:46 PM
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to something noble.
Nobody wants to tithe so that the church can pay for the septic tank to get pumped out.
Give as unto the Lord.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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No, that's not it
Sep 17, 2013, 4:50 PM
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I consider getting the churches septic tank pumped out, paying the power bill, etc part of the greater good. Once the basics are taken care of, I start getting interested on where the money goes. At our church the rector accounts for each dime collected in the budget, and where that money goes.
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All-In [28802]
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that's the same at nearly every church***
Sep 17, 2013, 5:33 PM
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Oculus Spirit [82258]
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Huge props to the last three***
Sep 17, 2013, 2:47 PM
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Rock Defender [54]
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Craig Groschel's church, Lifechurch.tv is behind YouVersion
Sep 17, 2013, 2:51 PM
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the #1 Bible app. Tons of translations/paraphrases, audio...all el freebo
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CU Guru [1599]
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I wonder how much of the last 2 sections is true
Sep 17, 2013, 3:48 PM
[ in reply to Huge props to the last three*** ] |
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Nevertheless, the last three does make me feel good.
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Oculus Spirit [82258]
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Well, the other section is probably true, but if you
Sep 17, 2013, 3:51 PM
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think about it, I'm sure the "greedy" ones the article tries to pin as greedy give more percentage wise than we do.
Then I tried to look up Osteen and found this...
"Joel Osteen has said that a person should never feel guilty for being rich, as God views that as an insult. Instead, he should praise God for blessing him with the money."
Yea, screw him.
http://www.howmuchmoneytheymake.com/public-figures/joel-osteen-net-worth-and-salary-lakewood-church.htm
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All-In [28802]
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Osteen preaches a "prosperity gospel"
Sep 17, 2013, 4:00 PM
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which has been really popular among pentecostals and churches with more poor people, but which almost any orthodox theologian will tell you is a heresy.
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Ring of Honor [32958]
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Big churches have merely been more blessed by God
Sep 17, 2013, 2:50 PM
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you devil worshiper.
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Oculus Spirit [79823]
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This would make Perry Nobles blood boil...
Sep 17, 2013, 3:05 PM
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Not because it's a false portrait of what Newspring is, but because he's not on the list of highest paid pastors.
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Oculus Spirit [79246]
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Creflo Dollar is a cool name***
Sep 17, 2013, 3:38 PM
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110%er [6101]
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Re: #### Dolla
Sep 17, 2013, 6:11 PM
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CU Guru [1723]
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Churches should influence the culture, not the other
Sep 17, 2013, 4:14 PM
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way around. If you like everything that your pastor says and everything about your church, you probably are in the wrong one. The Bible has some hard parts and you can't shave those edges off to keep the numbers up.
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All-In [28802]
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Re: Churches should influence the culture, not the other
Sep 17, 2013, 4:27 PM
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Most of those churches aren't "shaving the edges off." Mainline protestant churches, in their shift to liberal theology, already tried that, and it resulted in much lower numbers. The only modern accomodation most of these churches has made is in architecture and liturgy, and I've yet to hear anybody on here criticize them for that (except drewtiger, who says church shouldn't be entertaining but who doesn't give a reason why he thinks stadium seating and electric guitars are inherent more entertaining than hymns written in a certain mode or whatever music he's used to at church).
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Yup, you shouldn't go to church expecting a show
Sep 17, 2013, 4:29 PM
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You should go to church expecting to feel closer to God.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Quick question
Sep 17, 2013, 4:32 PM
[ in reply to Re: Churches should influence the culture, not the other ] |
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You're going to a concert, looking for some entertainment, do you show up at the one with the electric guitars or the one with the lady playing the organ and the volunteer choir?
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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As for the stadium seating
Sep 17, 2013, 4:33 PM
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I could think of a few million other things to do with that money that would serve the greater good.
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All-In [28802]
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All-In [28802]
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depends who's playing the organ and what they're playing
Sep 17, 2013, 4:46 PM
[ in reply to Quick question ] |
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Seriously. I'd rather hear Bach played by a master on the organ than hear some crappy garage band bang away on guitars. But that's just me.
I also don't think that any song played on an organ and written during a certain time period is inherently more worshipful. Plato seemed to think that certain modes of music and certain rhythms manipulated the soul in different ways, so he wanted to ban all but the music that led to a well-regulated soul. We're obviously not talking about that here, so it seems like we're actually just talking about personal preferences.
My own personal preference is for a pretty eclectic worship service rather than one with a lot of "praise choruses" backed up by electric guitars, but what's the real difference between a guitar solo and 20 measures of organ solo? When was God's Music written, and on what instruments should it be played? Or should music never be played on instruments in church, as they say in many churches of Christ (http://cconline.faithsite.com/content.asp?CID=51223).
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CU Guru [1723]
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If you are interested, Indelible Grace
Sep 17, 2013, 4:54 PM
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is pretty good stuff. They kind of combine the old with the new. Great hymns from the 1700-1800s rearranged with a kind of folky sound. Some of it is really good and some just average, but definitely worth giving a listen.
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110%er [5156]
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"Some of it is pretty good.."
Sep 18, 2013, 1:33 PM
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This has always been sort of a weird comment to me.
Not a church-goer, but I was under the impression that entertainment value wasn't the purpose of worship.
Not bashing you, personally. Just always struck me as weird that people rate and review hymns or worship bands or liturgies at all.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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I have no problem with personal preferences
Sep 17, 2013, 4:55 PM
[ in reply to depends who's playing the organ and what they're playing ] |
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However, when the show become more important than message, it becomes less about saving souls and more about putting butts (with wallets attached) into the seats. I don't believe a church should require a sound man and a mixing board.
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All-TigerNet [14312]
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uh oh, I'm a sound man that runs a mixing board at
Sep 17, 2013, 4:57 PM
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a church.
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CU Guru [1723]
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All-TigerNet [14312]
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jinx...lol***
Sep 17, 2013, 4:58 PM
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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All-In [28802]
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nearly every church with a sanctuary that seats...
Sep 17, 2013, 5:31 PM
[ in reply to I have no problem with personal preferences ] |
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more than 50 people needs a soundboard because they have to use microphones. I also see nothing wrong with making worship as beautiful as it can be, and that sometimes requires technological enhancement (like microphones, projectors, or even certain architecture).
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Rock Defender [54]
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CU Guru [1723]
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Yeah...too much there to even try to make sense of...
Sep 17, 2013, 4:47 PM
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I just have to shake my head and feel sorry for the old man and anyone who buys what he is selling.
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All-TigerNet [14312]
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Just think, the same church would have
Sep 17, 2013, 4:47 PM
[ in reply to Tell that to this new pope. ] |
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excommunicated him 1500 years ago for that.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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You're being much to kind
Sep 17, 2013, 4:51 PM
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They would have fired up the heretic BBQ.
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All-In [28802]
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this isn't what the pope said...
Sep 17, 2013, 5:22 PM
[ in reply to Tell that to this new pope. ] |
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but, as with much religion reporting, it was twisted into something that non- Christians or liberals would've like the pope to have said.
He was merely pointing out that atheists are every bit as subject to God's grace as Chrisitians are, and that God saves who he will based on their seeking of his grace.
Here's a good explanation (from a Greenvilian!), with the complete translation of the comment:
In a winning style that is reminiscent of Pope John Paul I’s charming letters to the various historical figures, Pope Francis has written a very personal letter to the founder of a major Italian newspaper. Over the summer, Eugenio Scalfari – an agnostic – wrote a series of editorials posing some theological questions. Pope Francis responded with a warm-hearted explanation of the Christian faith and the personal encounter with Christ that lies at the heart of it. Journalists ignored the strong gospel message of the Pope’s letter to focus on one paragraph in which Pope Francis addresses the question of whether God can forgive agnostics and atheists. The Daily Telegraph’s Nick Squires reports that the Pope says, “God forgives those who follow their conscience.” However, in the Zenit translation of the letter, these words do not appear. The Pope writes:
First of all, you ask me if the God of Christians forgives one who doesn’t believe and doesn’t seek the faith. Premise that – and it’s the fundamental thing – the mercy of God has no limits if one turns to him with a sincere and contrite heart; the question for one who doesn’t believe in God lies in obeying one’s conscience. Sin, also for those who don’t have faith, exists when one goes against one’s conscience. To listen to and to obey it means, in fact, to decide in face of what is perceived as good or evil. And on this decision pivots the goodness or malice of our action. Nowhere does the Holy Father state that “God forgives those who follow their conscience.” What he does state is that “the mercy of God has no limits if one turns to him with a sincere and contrite heart.” Strange how Mr. Squires omitted that important word, “if,” and what came after it. God’s mercy is everlasting, and he does desire that no one should perish. But as the Pope teaches, we cannot receive God’s mercy if we do not ask for it, and we do this by turning to him “with a sincere and contrite heart.” Simply obeying one’s conscience is not enough, and the Pope never said it was. Instead, the Pope is teaching that without the light of faith and belief in God, the only thing left for the agnostic or atheist to follow is the light of their conscience. This limited light can help a person decide between good and evil, but the light of the human conscience alone, without divine grace and the acceptance of divine revelation, is very limited. Not only is one’s conscience on its own a limited light, but that light is shaded by the influences of the secular world and distorted by individual sin and ignorance. The light of individual conscience is like a match flame in the darkened cave. It is better than nothing, but it does not compare to the full strength searchlight of God’s enlightening grace. Once again, the secular writers have taken a snippet of the Pope’s comments out of context and distorted them to make Pope Francis fit into their “progressive” agenda. It is heartening that the journalists emphasize God’s mercy, but what Squires and others have missed are the Pope’s reminder that to find God’s forgiveness, one must turn to him with not only sincerity, but a contrite heart. A contrite heart is a penitent heart. It is a heart and mind that says first and foremost, “I am a sinner in need of God. I need assistance and forgiveness. I need the Divine Mercy.” As soon as any son or daughter of Adam turns to God with such a state of mind, the everlasting mercy overflows.
Fr. Dwight Longenecker is the parish priest of Our Lady of the Rosary Church in Greenville, South Carolina. His latest book, The Romance of Religion, will be published by Thomas Nelson in February of 2014.
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110%er [5156]
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The Catholic and Orthodox views on ignorance...
Sep 18, 2013, 12:35 PM
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both vincible and invincible are interesting to me, and depending on which iteration I read (depending on the source), the more confused I get.
To me, as a functional atheist, but one who is a perpetual "seeker," I have a hard time with dogmatic presumptions of salvation based on belief.
I know you disagree to a large degree, but I think it's self-evident that belief and/or non-belief is largely involuntary.
It doesn't keep me up at nights, but it is troubling that something entirely out of my control could keep someone out of heaven.
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Orange Blooded [3978]
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110%er [6101]
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Re: Always enjoy watching these scumbags get caught***
Sep 17, 2013, 6:13 PM
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nm
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