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Hall of Famer [21848]
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My argument is still valid.
Apr 15, 2013, 8:57 AM
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I hope we win it all this year and finally gets us over that hump. If that happens everyone including myself can praise Jack for what he's done, but until he wins big time MEANINGFUL games I hold my reservations that we MIGHT be better with new blood moving forward. I've said it many times our team has been stagnant and hasn't taken steps forward in a while. Do we win? Yes we win but has he taken that next step? No.
Everybody wants to get excited about a 10 game streak and it is impressive don't get me wrong but....who did we beat that we shouldn't have? The first game against UNC was a good win but outside of that we've played teams we should beat.
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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My argument is still valid.
Apr 15, 2013, 9:04 AM
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I hope you post something meaningful this year and finally contribute something to the board. If that happens everyone including myself can praise you for what you've done, but until you post THOUGHTFUL comments I hold my reservations that we MIGHT be better with none of these posts moving forward. I've said it many times our Board has been illogical and hasn't taken steps towards coherent discourse in a while. Do you post? Yes you post but have you taken that next step? No.
Everyone wants to get excited about 10 thumbs-up and it's impressive don't get me wrong but... who thumbs-up you that shouldn't have? The first post that DSP thumbs-up was a good one but outside of that you've been thumbs-downed.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: My argument is still valid.
Apr 15, 2013, 9:05 AM
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+1 for creativity.
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Thanks for the originality....
Apr 15, 2013, 9:06 AM
[ in reply to My argument is still valid. ] |
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lack of creativity has clearly taken you far in life....
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Head Coach [762]
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your pessimism has not***
Apr 15, 2013, 9:09 AM
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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How am I pessimistic? I'm realistic....
Apr 15, 2013, 9:17 AM
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All you Jack Homers want to sniff his jock when the fact is he hasn't won the BIG games. In fact he has consistently choked on the big stage.
I love how you all get up in arms when someone posts factually. Outside of the uncheat win, who have we beaten that we shouldn't have(during the streak)? We lost series with UNC, USUC, and UVA. Our best series win is 2/3 against NC State. The only ranked team we took the series. Keep touting our SOS but we didn't beat the good teams....
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Orange Blooded [3121]
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The argument goes both ways...
Apr 15, 2013, 10:05 AM
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If you want to say that we've only beaten the teams we were supposed to... well, we've only lost series to teams we were ranked lower than, which means we were supposed to lose those. Right? It cuts both ways.
FWIW, winning the games and series IS a step forward for this young team. Just last year we got swept by a Wake Forest team that we should have won 2 out of 3 against at a minimum. It's similar to what the football team did last year... we won every game we were supposed to win, and most rational people consider than an improvement.
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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Common sense is not his strong point.***
Apr 15, 2013, 10:17 AM
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Obviously Big Games arent ones were "supposed" to win
Apr 15, 2013, 10:27 AM
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Who has an issue with common sense??????
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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However, on the big stage
Apr 15, 2013, 10:28 AM
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he has choked to teams we're "supposed" to beat. see post below.
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All-In [49613]
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Re: How am I pessimistic? I'm realistic....
Apr 15, 2013, 10:59 AM
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To be realistic today is to be visionary. To be realistic is to be starry-eyed.
Hubert H. Humphrey
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Hall of Famer [22965]
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Hubert Humphrey?!?!?!
Apr 15, 2013, 11:07 AM
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lol
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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VP vs actor/rapper....
Apr 15, 2013, 11:11 AM
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hmmmmmmm
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Hall of Famer [22965]
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Yeah, well, Spiro Agnew was a vice-president too
Apr 15, 2013, 11:33 AM
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I don't think you'll find Humphrey, Agnew OR Will Smith listed amongst the formidable minds of the last century.
Course, Humphrey wasn't convicted of a felony (that I'm aware of) like Spiro T either.....Just the fact that you wanted to compare some pithy thought made by Will Smith with an equally pointless remark by HHH is what is comical.
Message was edited by: tigrjm76®
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Head Coach [762]
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All-TigerNet [14470]
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Re: My argument is still valid.
Apr 15, 2013, 9:27 AM
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If you can't get excited about the young talent on this team and what is on the way next year and the year after I feel very sorry for you.
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Don't feel sorry for me....
Apr 15, 2013, 9:29 AM
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If you haven't figured out the "we're a young team" excuse by now I feel sorry for you.
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All-TigerNet [14470]
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Re: Don't feel sorry for me....
Apr 15, 2013, 9:32 AM
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You mean the young team that will be ranked in the top 15 this week. That team.
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Yep that one....
Apr 15, 2013, 9:33 AM
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the one that Jack will likely choke with(if history repeats itself) when it counts.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: My argument is still valid.
Apr 15, 2013, 9:38 AM
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Anon - you're pizzing in the wind on t-net boards talking badly about Jack. Nobody gets wet but you. And nobody will bother to be the least bit open-minded on certain things - Jack being one of those things. For me - Jack is Frank Howard in many ways - you have to endure the bad times because he brought you many good times. Just roll with it dude - nothing is going to change until Jack says it will. Be very thankful for what you have, because CLEMSON will someday replace Jack with a totally "UNPROVEN" new coach - and then you will really complain. Be very thankful.
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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I Completely understand what you are saying, however
Apr 15, 2013, 9:47 AM
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I have my opinion and as a Clemson man I want what's best for our programs and I want to win on the biggest stage(Jack's been close but no cigar). I hate that people cant be logical and get out of their own way.
Also, I'm not trying to talk badly about Jack and I am thankful that Clemson baseball has been relevant for many years and he's won many games for many years. My only knock is that he chokes when it counts. He doesn't win the big ones and anyone that says otherwise either doesn't know anything about Clemson baseball or is crazy.
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All-In [27374]
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Re: I Completely understand what you are saying, however
Apr 15, 2013, 10:04 AM
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Please define 'Clemson man' for me. I think Clemson has beaten five teams in the polls this year already. If you don't like Coach Leggett, I have no problem with that. He probably doesn't give a rip for you either. I just love a positive 'Clemson man'. Anonymous???
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Can you define what would make me a "Clemson Man"
Apr 15, 2013, 10:25 AM
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in your eyes?
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Legend [16902]
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Re: I Completely understand what you are saying, however
Apr 15, 2013, 10:05 AM
[ in reply to I Completely understand what you are saying, however ] |
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You are talking badly about Jack. Is winning the CWS the ony way to get "over the hump?" I assume that is what you mean by "win the big one". He's taken every player that's ever given him four years a trip Omaha. An accomplishment, among others, that has him in the Hall of Fame. On his last trip, he took Clemson to the equivalent of a semi-final, the furthest Clemson has ever made it. If winning it all is the only acceptable outcome then how often does it it need to be done? Regardless, I guess you believe FSU needs to fire Mike Martin. He makes Jack's CWS "choking" seem pedestrian. Actually, by your standard every single program in the ACC should fire their coaches. Oh, Flordia and Vanderbilt need to fire theirs also. And, since you know for certain that it is as simple as getting out of our own way, please let me know which coach is going to immediately begin accomplishing the simple task of winning the CWS with regularity as soon as we make him coach?
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Let's look at his CWS trips
Apr 15, 2013, 10:24 AM
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1995- 4th seed 2 and out with losses to lower seeded teams(1st round)
1996- 4th seed 2-2 semi appearance loss to miami(14-5)
2000- 4th 1-2 both losses to lower seeds (2nd round)
2002- 2nd seed 2-2 lost to usuc in semis by combined score 22-6
2006- 1 seed 1-2 both losses to lower seeds(2nd round)
2010- 2-2 lost to usuc in semi’s by combined score 9-4.
All of those losses to lower seeds and usuc(lower seed) says choking to me.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Let's look at his CWS trips
Apr 15, 2013, 10:30 AM
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Great - now answer any of my actual questions. Mike Martin gone? Augie Garrido gone (hasn't win in 11 years)? O'Sullivan gone? Corbin gone? And who is the savior we are all standing in the way of?
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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You're trying to make a point based on other schools????
Apr 15, 2013, 10:40 AM
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Why should I give a rat about other schools? I want Clemson to WIN...is that to much to ask?
BTW the coaches you've named have done way more than Jack
Martin - 2 CWS finals
Garrido- 2 NC's
O'Sullivan - in 6 years 3 CWS's and 1 finals appearance.
Jack has never made a final.
What point exactly are you trying to make?????
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Legend [16902]
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Re: You're trying to make a point based on other schools????
Apr 15, 2013, 10:57 AM
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YOU have said Jacks needs to "WIN IT ALL" to "GET OVER THE HUMP" and get your approval. Of those coaches only Garrido has titles - a requisite from what you previously stated was necessary to "GET OVER THE HUMP." I am using your words, I then highlighted the fact that, with the full weight and resources of the University of Texas, Garrido has only done it once and not in more than a decade. All of them were used to point out how ridiculous setting winning a CWS as your sole measure of success is.
So once again. Which coach will be able to immediately and regularly win titles? If your measure of success is intellectually sound why shouldn't I ask to see how you would apply it those other coaches, I Garrido had been the coach at Clemson for the last 10 years and had the exact same record he had a Texas what would your evaluation be? Would having won at previous schools be good enough. What about the others. Would Jack be okay with you with their records. Suddenly the championship isn't mandatory? By your previous standard, Florida as overall 1 seed losing to 8 seed South Carolina in 2012 should be cause for scorn but you seem to leave that out. Oh they were beat by lower seed South Carolina in 2011. In fact, they were eliminated by two straight lower seeds in 2010 as well. If it was Jack, you'd call that "choking." In 2011 and 2012 Florida and Clemson were eliminated from the postseason by the exact same team.
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Jack has never made it to the Finals
Apr 15, 2013, 11:10 AM
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Is that not a hump? Answer my questions for once...can you logically argue that Jack and his teams haven't choked at the CWS? That's my point...our teams have been stagnant and get to a point in the CWS and choke.
And I didnt say he needs to win it all to get over the hump. I love your paraphrasing to try to prove your point with context.
I said "I hope we win it all this year and finally gets us over that hump".
Winning a championship is another hump he hasn't gotten us over. Are you happy with him constantly underachieving at the CWS? Are you happy with going and getting to the semi's to lose?
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Jack has never made it to the Finals
Apr 15, 2013, 11:18 AM
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What question have I not answered? And yes the final could be a hump. YOU said "WIN IT ALL." I'm trying to clarify. So Jack is an A #1 perfect coach as long as he starts making it to the finals and only loses to lower seeds? I'm just trying to make sure I understand exactly what you're looking for.
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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I'm looking for improvement....
Apr 15, 2013, 11:31 AM
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Making it to the same spots over and over isn't getting better or worse...its called being Stagnant which has been my main argument. Under jack we can expect the same things every year. Nothing more or less.
I want to see IMPROVEMENT which is making it to the finals for one and winning the finals also.
Are you happy with being stagnant? are you happy not making it any further? are you ok with settling for a 4th-8th finish instead of 1st?
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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I'm not talking badly about jack just stating my opinion
Apr 15, 2013, 11:24 AM
[ in reply to Re: I Completely understand what you are saying, however ] |
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backed by facts that he seems to underachieve. Going to a final would take us to a next step. winning would also do that.
I would love to see us make the finals at least once every 4-5 years. Is that unrealistic? Maybe, but we've had some very good teams not make it.
I don't care if any other school should fire their coach. I couldn't give 2 sh!ts less about another school. I want clemson to win.
I don't have an opinion on a replacement I would like to see new blood though if Jack cant win it all.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: I'm not talking badly about jack just stating my opinion
Apr 15, 2013, 11:47 AM
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There - we could actually have a constructive conversation.
I think making a semifinal was a previous step in the right direction. It might not be good enough for you but it was an improvement. It has just been completely undermined by what our chief rival has done. I don't hang that on Jack. You do. Which seems to create the rift in our outlook on this coach and program.
I don't think a finals evey 4-5 years is particularly realistic but I would like to see us get there back to back again. I think returning CWS experience is priceless. It is part of why I've let myself get excited about this team and sucked into these debates defending them. They are young and are getting better every day. I'm not saying it as any type of excuse. I'm saying it because it is exciting to watch a team that will essentially stay together for two years find their stride. We should bust into all the polls today. We are #16 in RPI so in the drivers seat to host a regional. A lot of the teams in front of us had bad weeks. We could very well be playing ourselves into a Super Regional host if we can keep up the pace. If we can win the series at Miami, don't need to sweep, it would be another huge boost to RPI. Would love to keep on winning though.
I think if you are so adamant about needing to replace Jack you should spend a minute seriously evaluating what the replacement might look like. With that statement (I would like o see new blod) you are advocating change for the sake of change. Across the spectrum of sports, playing the coaching carousel is far more likely to work against than for you. I think the ideal scenario is that sometime, probably in the not too distant future, Jack will pick a successor much like Wilhelm did with him. I think O'Sullivan and Corbin make important examples because they are two of the names most commonly floated to replace Jack. O'Sullivan certainly has better resources at Florida and still can't win one. Corbin would probably have a much easier time recruiting at Clemson and maybe it would be enough to propel him/Clemson to another level. But, I doubt either of those guys is coming to replace a forced out Leggett. Clemson has one of the best coaching trees in the business. It would be particularly sad to see Clemson do Leggett wrong and have the working against rather than for you.
Message was edited by: viztiz®
Message was edited by: viztiz®
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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I'm guessing Corbett = Corbin???***
Apr 15, 2013, 11:55 AM
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Legend [16902]
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Re: I'm guessing Corbett = Corbin???***
Apr 15, 2013, 11:58 AM
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Yes - sorry. Not sure if auto correct or if I've just been typing too much.
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110%er [6937]
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Legend [16902]
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Re: My argument is still valid.
Apr 15, 2013, 9:51 AM
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I think it is sad that you are clearly agitated by Clemson winning baseball games and it calls into question what kind of fan you are. You have a preconceived expectation of Jack/Clemson baseball and you've gone out of your way to voice it. Now, you look silly for having bashed this team so you dismiss the present and create a argument about what will happen in a hypothetical future. In the process refusing to offer any honest appreciation for what this team has done. Watching sports is supposed to be fun for more reasons than reading a stat sheet at the end of the season. If you don't like watching Boulware blow it up, if you don't like watching our young hitters improve daily, if you don't like watching our team rally to help our best pitcher while he has struggled the last few weeks, if you are aren't rooting for Baum to shake off the funk then you aren't much of a Clemson fan in my book. You can mock the "young" excuse but it isn't an excuse. If you paid attention you'd know we return our entire current weekend rotation next year. I'm pretty sure Brittle is the only bat we lose next year. This team could be setting us up for a really nice run. But just pout in your corner and tell us how terrible Jack is some more. I'm going to enjoy some more baseball.
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Please be factual when referencing my beliefs.....
Apr 15, 2013, 10:01 AM
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you obviously like to make crap up in order to make your point...when have I bashed this team? when have I said anything outside of Jack is stagnant and has choked in big games and has not gotten us over the hump?
And yes I will go out of my way to voice displeasure because nothing will ever change if everyone sits idle and is OK with winning 40 games but never a championship.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Please be factual when referencing my beliefs.....
Apr 15, 2013, 10:13 AM
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How in your minds eye is it not "bashing" to say that the 10 win streak doesn't matter because it is only against teams we should have beat (ignoring things like WF moving their Friday starter till Sunday to try and salvage a win) and that we will "choke when it matters".
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Once again making stuff up....
Apr 15, 2013, 10:29 AM
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where did I say it didn't matter?
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Once again making stuff up....
Apr 15, 2013, 10:36 AM
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Are you trying to turn this into a semantics fight? When you declare that the outcome of something is already known - i.e. Jack will "choke when it matters" (you used the word "matters") - then you are saying that these games effectively don't "matter." Words have meanings.
Additionally, in one of your replies you said something along the lines if starting this threads because "jack jock sniffers" were getting carried away after this 10 game streak. Where exactly are all these pro-jack messages. I can't find any in the last two days except possibly responses to threads like this where those of us who support this team feel the need to be defensive.
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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History has shown that jack and his teams
Apr 15, 2013, 10:42 AM
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CHOKE on the big stage(CWS) when it matters...look at his CWS stats from the previous post. Can you argue with this?
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Legend [16902]
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Re: History has shown that jack and his teams
Apr 15, 2013, 11:15 AM
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Why can't you actually answer any of my actual questions? There is a thread full of them. Just try it. I'll show you how.
You're using the word "choke," which has an obviously negative connotation, to describe the results of Clemson's results under Jack Leggett at the College World Series. I do not agree with that assessment. The CWS is the equivalent of the Elite Eight in basketball - an accomplishment we have never achieved. But at baseball we achieve this with regularity. I would, of course, like to see us win it all. I also have faith that Jack is as capable as anyone in college baseball to get it done. The only year, and I was there, that I think you can remotely use the choke term was 2006. That was the best team in college baseball. Berken, Colvin, Moskos, Mitchell - it was absolutely sick. So the question becomes do I believe that the coach that assembled that team - and coached them through an ACC championship and a Super Regional and what I believe is a record number iof ACC regular season wins suddenly forgets everything he knows about baseball and actively causes his team to fail? I don't believe that. Sometimes the better team loses. In 2010 we weren't that great - probably the worst Clemson team to make a CWS - and we found our way to the semifinal after knocking out the 1 seed. That's not choking. And at the time losing to Michael Roth might have seemed like choking. But, perhaps as he is now only the 2nd player from the 2012 draft to make the majors and he starts out striking out 4 in 2 innings and picking up a win in his first MLB appearance it is time to fairly access Roth as something more than a Tiger-killer. So no, I don't agree with you. And it is why the schools/coaches are relevant. It undermines your notion that is just a matter of changing coaches.
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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Baker and Greene played for Clemson in 2006?***
Apr 15, 2013, 11:35 AM
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Baker and Greene played for Clemson in 2006?***
Apr 15, 2013, 11:56 AM
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No, I f'ed that all up. What I get for going on memory - getting old. Greene/Baker/Jackson was 2002. 2006 was Mitchell, Widman, Colvin, Berken, and Moskos. Still should have won it that year.
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Hall of Famer [21848]
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'95-96, '02, and '06
Apr 15, 2013, 12:00 PM
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were big disappointments IMHO. I was very young for '95-96 but still remember it.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: '95-96, '02, and '06
Apr 15, 2013, 12:23 PM
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95-96 were Kris Benson years? It's actually not easy to dig some of this stuff up. I probably only saw Clemson/Carolina those years. And none of that stuff was on TV and there was certainly no internet broadcasting. So it is hard to really have an opinion on what happened. Even in 2002 I think the series was still on CBS and only televised 2 games. That was in the short lived days of the one game final. Texas had no losses and Carolina had one. In the pre-CBS format it was a true double elimination and South Carolina would have needed to win twice. But they went to the one game final - fortunately Texas took care of business.
I went in 2006 and 2010. Obviously I'm no lucky charm. But the event is one of the best and I'd recommend any sports fan make the trip.
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Hall of Famer [21848]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15708
Joined: 10/23/12
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Re: History has shown that jack and his teams
Apr 15, 2013, 11:40 AM
[ in reply to Re: History has shown that jack and his teams ] |
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"That was the best team in college baseball. Baker, Colvin, Benson, Greene - it was absolutely sick"
I'm assuming you mean Jeff Baker, Tyler Colvin, Kris Benson, and Khalil Greene....If so you just mixed and matched 3 Clemson Teams.
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Hall of Famer [21848]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15708
Joined: 10/23/12
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Re: Once again making stuff up....
Apr 15, 2013, 11:26 AM
[ in reply to Re: Once again making stuff up.... ] |
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not a semantics fight and I didnt declare its a known outcome. I said if history repeats itself(which it seems to).
There have been threads started praising this 10 game win streak and Jack is back, etc. If you cant find them then you aren't looking.....
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Hall of Famer [21848]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15708
Joined: 10/23/12
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110%er [6937]
TigerPulse: 88%
Posts: 22594
Joined: 5/4/03
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Legend [16902]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10768
Joined: 1/25/07
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Re: Watch him. He will tell you that UVA spent 45 million in
Apr 15, 2013, 11:19 AM
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14270 intelligent things to say.
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Legend [19202]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 16712
Joined: 9/2/08
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Why post this nonsense if we are winning! PULL FOR THE
Apr 15, 2013, 10:03 AM
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TIGERS not against the man coaching them.
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Hall of Famer [21848]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15708
Joined: 10/23/12
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I am pulling for the Tigers...
Apr 15, 2013, 10:09 AM
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I'm posting this because people think winning 10 straight(9 against not very good teams) means Jack is amazing.
3/9 combined against the best teams we've played is where my head keeps going.
But hey if people want to stick their head in the sand that's fine by me. Just don't expect me to do it.
I'm offering a little perspective but obviously most would rather turn a blind eye.
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Legend [19202]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 16712
Joined: 9/2/08
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I don't think this team is elite because we ARE SO YOUNG.
Apr 15, 2013, 10:12 AM
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That is a fact. I DO THINK we are getting better--our young men are learning to be a team and play at a high level--and since the UNC win we have gained some confidence and momentum. I am pulling for us to move forward. To host a regional would be a milestone for this bunch. To get to Omaha would be huge.
GO TIGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Commissioner [907]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 984
Joined: 10/10/11
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Re: I am pulling for the Tigers...
Apr 15, 2013, 10:47 AM
[ in reply to I am pulling for the Tigers... ] |
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Anony .... I'm betting that my faith in these young Tigers is going to prove better than the facts you tout. I am thrilled they are winning, even if they beat the Sisters of The Poor from Pasedena. Get on the Tigers side man! Be a fan not a man waiting for a fail to happen. Go TIGERS beat Furman!!!
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Hall of Famer [21848]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 10/23/12
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VIZTIZ I've answered your "questions"....
Apr 15, 2013, 11:27 AM
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anything else?
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110%er [6937]
TigerPulse: 88%
Posts: 22594
Joined: 5/4/03
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Re He is getting his stats together.***
Apr 15, 2013, 3:55 PM
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