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Orange Blooded [4367]
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Where does Brownell have to take us for him to be considered
Mar 10, 2013, 11:08 PM
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a success?
OP, while he reached a ceiling (whether that was Clemson Basketball's ceiling or his coaching ceiling won't be discussed) he did improve each of his first 4 years, leading into some NCAA appearances. Many, including myself, want more, but from a historical standpoint, that is very good for Clemson basketball.
It looks like Brownell will be given at least 4 years for improvement, maybe 6. The question is, by OP's 4th year, we became a solid force, and fan attendence was great. Being a student with both BB and OP, I can tell you people actually cared OP was our coach.
My main thought is not about giving Brownell another year. I agree he probably should, at least until the BOT/DRad decide what to do with basketball investment wise. What I'm wondering is why we should give a coach 4-6 years to get us back to the level our last coach left us at.
I understand injuries, and I also understand BB is a good coach. What I don't understand why some are saying Brownell deserves at least 2-3 more years at Clemson. If we were on the cusp of something or our sights were aimed much higher, I'd agree. However, what we are looking for is a team almost as good as the one he inherited. It shouldn't take 6 years for that.
He had bad luck this year. A lot of games didn't go his way, and he was killed by injuries. However, if next year is only a small improvement or even only a reasonable improvement, we still are left with a much worse team than the one we had 4 years ago. And as a Clemson fan, that is unacceptable to me.
He deserves 1 more year. Nothing anyone has told me has indicated he deserves any more than that. The ACC is going to only get stronger. We need to be better than we were in 2009-2010, not almost as good.
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Completely agree
Mar 10, 2013, 11:14 PM
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This line stuck out to me: However, if next year is only a small improvement or even only a reasonable improvement, we still are left with a much worse team than the one we had 4 years ago. And as a Clemson fan, that is unacceptable to me.
People may knock OP's coaching ability or recruiting, but we won games and had talent. Right now we have neither. Something has to change fast and that is the players and/or coach. We have never been top 25 with Brownell, and were ranked at various times throughout Purnell's last 4 seasons. That is indicative to me of how we have fallen, especially compared to where we were.
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Rooter [228]
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Re: Where does Brownell have to take us for him to be considered
Mar 10, 2013, 11:14 PM
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I concur!
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CU Medallion [58424]
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Consistently past the first round of the NCAA tourney
Mar 10, 2013, 11:19 PM
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in order to be considered an improvement over OP. Consistently to the first round and done would be the same, while not consistently making the tournament is a step back. Those are the facts.
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Orange Blooded [2565]
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Re: Where does Brownell have to take us for him to be considered
Mar 10, 2013, 11:19 PM
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JCCalhoun-- You obviously have not reviewed the empty cupboard of long-tem recruits OP left us without. ZERO juniors on this year's team---the ones that would have to have been recruited and signed by OP prior to his departure or BB within days of his hiring at Clemson. Did OP get some decent players here and get to NCAAs? Yes and Yes; but he struck out with many recruits that could have helped us get to an elevated posture in ACC. To get ACC players BB is going to have to find some hidden gems and develop some others to a level of strong competition within the ACC. And you are right---the injuries suffered during this season or before have been a real stumbling block.
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CU Guru [1900]
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I dont think Brownell should be here forever
Mar 10, 2013, 11:22 PM
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especially if he cant get the job done, but IMO its not as much coaching as it is the players as the reason were losing. When players are getting wide open from the type of offense Brownell runs, and they just cant hit the shot to save their lives, it comes down to the players, and not the coaching.
I think Butler runs a very, very similar offense as Brownell, and if you look at them during the years, when they have shooters, they're contending for national titles, when they dont have shooters, they look like Clemson this year.
It'll be hard for Brownell to recruit elite shooters to Clemson, a football school, when he's recruiting against basketball schools like Duke and North Carolina, but if he can bring in a few shooters (like Blossomgame and Rooks should be, and hopefully Coleman can produce) then Clemson basketball has a chance to be really exciting to watch.
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Orange Blooded [4367]
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And I agree.
Mar 10, 2013, 11:24 PM
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The players are partly to blame. But either recruiting a player or having him for 3 years, he becomes your player, and therefore your problem to fix.
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Walk-On [135]
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Re: Where does Brownell have to take us for him to be considered
Mar 10, 2013, 11:25 PM
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Getting back to where we were is the goal for now. I was not happy with the Brownel hire. However he is our coach now, and I think he should get a min. 5 yrs. The Clemson job is one of the toughest jobs in the conference. You need to let the coach get at least a full roster of his players. Next year we will have no seniors.
When you have a coaching change you lose 2 years. If you look back at posts during his hire, there were several people that predicted year 3 would be bad. I know I did. It was even worse due to injuries.
Again I did not like the hire. However, I have seen our team develop. Mainly on the defensive end. Offensively, we are what we are. A school that can't recruit a talented shooter. Don't think that is a coaching problem. This is a Clemson legacy problem.
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Orange Blooded [4367]
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So you'd be happy if in 5 years he gets us to the point
Mar 10, 2013, 11:30 PM
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we were 5 years ago?
Im sorry, but that just doesn't seem like it should be Clemson Athletics motto: "Lets stay stagnant"
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Walk-On [135]
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Re: So you'd be happy if in 5 years he gets us to the point
Mar 10, 2013, 11:39 PM
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Haha. Dont get me wrong. I would love to be top 10 tomorrow. However you do realize what the history of Clemson ball is? I am fairly young. Mid 30s. However I have been watching our Bball team since We had the twin towers. And I can count the number of great teams over the past 23 years on 1 hand. UNC, Duke, we're not built over night. It took smith and K years to build there teams. Clemson would be best served by picking a coach and staying with them.
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Orange Blooded [4367]
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It took coach K exactly 4 years to build the type of team
Mar 10, 2013, 11:42 PM
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I want to see at Clemson. A NCAA win and looking up.
So, my point is kind of made.
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Walk-On [135]
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Re: It took coach K exactly 4 years to build the type of team
Mar 10, 2013, 11:58 PM
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No. I don't think you have. first off Duke has always been a Bball school. They went to final fours before K was even their coach. he was charged with coming in after a few down years to get the program going again. that said he also happens to be one of the best all time. duke got lucky. We could only hope for that.
Clemson is a football school. if we were talking about football, I would expect our coach to right the ship in 4 years or less. Clemson invests, and has invested tons into football. To make that happen. We also have a legacy and facilities that help us recruit. Bball does not enjoy those advantages. This makes it harder.
We need to stick with a coach and get some consistency. It's going to take some time. Unfortunately longer than 4 yrs.
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Orange Blooded [4367]
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Re: It took coach K exactly 4 years to build the type of team
Mar 11, 2013, 12:10 AM
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And Clemson went to an Elite 8 before Brownell back in the day.
We may be a football school, but we had definite basketball support. It wasn't nearly as big as our football support, but it was there. The fanbase has eroded. I remember standing for hours to get into big OP games. Now I'm talking to all my brothers friends (he's a freshmen) friends and almost none have them have been to a Clemson MBB game, and most have no plans to do so. It no longer is a "you can't get in" type of event and has become a "please please come" type event.
I agree, we need consistancy. And I agree, it takes time. And to get where we want to be in the long run, you are right, it might take longer than 4 years.
However, if you are building a house and its supposed to be halfway done, you don't say "hmmm the foundation isn't even set yet, but he still has 2 more months". You look yourself in the eye and say "is there any way he can get to where we want to be by the time he was supposed to be finished?"
If the answer is no, that guy is not the answer.
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CU Guru [1198]
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Re: It took coach K exactly 4 years to build the type of team
Mar 11, 2013, 12:19 AM
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Purnell's teams weren't selling out games his first 4 years.
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CU Guru [1198]
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Orange Blooded [4367]
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He used Coach K as an example initially not me.***
Mar 11, 2013, 12:11 AM
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Walk-On [135]
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Re: He used Coach K as an example initially not me.***
Mar 11, 2013, 12:16 AM
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I used him because that is the type of program I want to get to. however I also know it was not built overnight. It took 10 years to get a championship. And that is with a Bball school. My point you have to start somewhere. Clemson needs to pick a coach and commit to them. There will be ups and downs but we need to get a coach for ten years than constantly changing every five.
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CU Guru [1198]
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Re: Where does Brownell have to take us for him to be considered
Mar 10, 2013, 11:28 PM
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What I'm wondering is why we should give a coach 4-6 years to get us back to the level our last coach left us at.
Because, in year three BB had no juniors. He had 2 seniors from Purnell's staff. That's the fact. It's not his fault. It's the way things happened.
In Purnell's 4th year, he had a SR point guard in Vernon Hamilton. And JRs Sam Perry, James Mayes, Cliff Hammnods. He also had the services of a FR Trevor Booker. They went to the NIT that year.
For the next 3 years, with Booker, and upper classmen,they lost 1st of the NCAA.
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Orange Blooded [4367]
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Brownell has had 3 years to coach 2 seniors.
Mar 10, 2013, 11:32 PM
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They turned out to be less brilliant than expected, but 3 years of that training is on Brownell.
You can't tell me Brownell wouldn't take what Booker and Jennings were expected to be their senior year of high school right now. They would have been recruited just as hard by him. Purnell had a year with them. Brownell has had 3.
I like Brownell, but a .500 season is not what I want to see, regardless of youth.
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Plus where is the good recruiting?
Mar 10, 2013, 11:38 PM
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How hard is it to sell a program that went to the NCAA Tournament for 4 straight years?
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Walk-On [135]
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Re: Plus where is the good recruiting?
Mar 10, 2013, 11:43 PM
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It is really hard. Have you visited our comp? Our trophies in Bball barely fill a broom closet. Go to Unc, duke, state. They have Bball palaces. It makes a difference.
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CU Guru [1198]
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Re: Plus where is the good recruiting?
Mar 10, 2013, 11:51 PM
[ in reply to Plus where is the good recruiting? ] |
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They are Freshmen, Sophomores out with injuries. How hard is it for to grasp numbers?
Brownell won a NCAA tournament game. He didn't have Trevor Booker either.
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: Plus where is the good recruiting?
Mar 10, 2013, 11:53 PM
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I'm sorry, but Jaron Blossomgame and Devin Coleman are not the difference between 5-13 and 9-9 in the ACC. They certainly do not make us an NCAA Tournament team. Am I wrong there?
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Rock Defender [53]
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This year's team could have won 9.
Mar 11, 2013, 1:47 AM
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Then how much better would they have been with Blossomgame, Coleman, Sapp (with his head on straight), and a couple of experienced juniors? BB is not that far away from success. Maybe Brad could have taught Thornton, Noel Johnson, etc. effectively - but we'll never know.
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Legend [16158]
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Brice Johnson is a good example...Had him bout locked up
Mar 10, 2013, 11:51 PM
[ in reply to Plus where is the good recruiting? ] |
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and UNC comes in with a late offer and POOF off to ride their bench instead of getting starter minutes with us.
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Orange Blooded [4367]
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So give me a reason if next year is as bad as this year
Mar 10, 2013, 11:54 PM
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that he should be given 1-2 more?
I get it, we are young this year. We are injured this year. We still have some of OP's highly recruited players that either weren't as good as advertised or were poorly developed.
However, tell me what we can learn in year 5 that we won't already know after the end of next year? That he might do slightly better with older players?
I'm not looking for a coach that can go 10-7 in conference play on his best year. I want a person that can take youth and play reasonably well with it(read better than 16-15), and when the stars align and we get a veteran roster do better than OP could do.
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Walk-On [135]
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Re: So give me a reason if next year is as bad as this year
Mar 11, 2013, 12:09 AM
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Program development. It's getting late. And I need to call it quits for tonight. however with Purnell, we did not see positives until year 5. I know bb inherited a tourney team. However his style of play was completely different than op's. I think it will take bb at least that amount of time. All honesty, probably longer, due to his style of play. I personally believe that Clemson does not have the work in place to get the recruits needed to run a motion based offense. But that is just my opinion.
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Orange Blooded [2457]
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Re: So give me a reason if next year is as bad as this year
Mar 11, 2013, 12:13 AM
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Purnell was at least in the NIT in year 2. We are not even looking at a .500 record next year.
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Walk-On [135]
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Re: So give me a reason if next year is as bad as this year
Mar 11, 2013, 12:26 AM
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Good point. But we were also 5-11 acc in year 2. And I bet our schedule was easier. We played a tough schedule this year plus 2 more conf games. Look, I hate we're we are as a Bball team. I love Bball more than fball. I grew up in North Carolina. However, I know Bball is an up hill battle at Clemson. If I though bb was another Larry shyatt, I would say let's get rid of him. However, if Clemson people want to see this type of Bball instead of a press based system, then I don't think we will get better than bb, at this time.
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CU Guru [1198]
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CU Guru [1198]
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Re: So give me a reason if next year is as bad as this year
Mar 11, 2013, 12:32 AM
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and understand Clemson lost 5 games by less than 5 points. They had a couple of guys (injured) on the bench that they were planning to get those 5 points.
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Walk-On [135]
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I think we are on the same page!
Mar 11, 2013, 12:33 AM
[ in reply to Re: So give me a reason if next year is as bad as this year ] |
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We keep saying about the same thing. I know the others want the same thing as well. This is definitely a frustrating season. but hopefully a growing pain that will lead to better days.
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CU Guru [1198]
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Re: So give me a reason if next year is as bad as this year
Mar 11, 2013, 12:17 AM
[ in reply to So give me a reason if next year is as bad as this year ] |
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If it's this bad next year, yeah, he's probably going to be shown the door. Or given an ultimatum. Then we will cycle thru this again. Like with Shyatt to Purnell to Brownell.
I think there will be improvement. BB did win his first year. Regardless where the players came from, that proved he could do it with some experience on the team. Something he is missing now. I think he'll get things on the right track starting next year. Then I'd expect some progression in tournament wins.
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All-In [28802]
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top half of the conference, consistently in the tournament
Mar 10, 2013, 11:35 PM
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I don't think Clemson will ever be a team that wins the ACC with any frequency, but I do think Clemson ought to be a team that gets into the top 25 and at least challenges the Duke/UNC's every few years. That, plus a sense of improvement from year to year, will allow a basketball coach to stay at Clemson for a long time.
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110%er [7191]
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Re: Where does Brownell have to take us for him to be considered
Mar 11, 2013, 5:01 AM
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Twenty wins,and an NCAA appearance would be a good start. Eighteen wins and an NIT bid might be consideration. Anything less,and you might want to start thinking of a change.
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110%er [7166]
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for Clemson it is all about Recruiting in Basketball...
Mar 11, 2013, 8:18 AM
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and if we can't pull in some decent recruiting classes like OP did then we won't have a chance. The only reason we had good teams with OP is b/c of his recruiting. 4star athletes don't usually come here but he pulled in some 4 stars every year. Now his method wasn't sustainable but his brand apparently was.... i think if Brownell got some talent started here then we could see it work b/c his method i believe is sustainable. Unfortunately his brand has yet to be discovered by high school athletes. Which in turn...sucks for us.
To be honest...here at Clemson for basketball, we have to stand out. Because there are about a hundred Brownell's o ut there...meaning low-key white dude... with OP he brought a package of high energy, high reps, that kids saw and knew they were going to have fun. Brownell's scheme is more practical and sustainable but is very similar to everyone elses' style...so at that point you're having to sell the school, the facilities, and unfortunately the history..which we don't have much....at least from the the outside looking in.
i know it sounds crazy but a guy like bruce pearl could get some excitement back (maybe for the worst though) and a guy like Shaka Smart would be great if they could somehow get him to come back here.... but boring basketball won't sell at Clemson...maybe at indiana where it was born...they'll get players regardless and in turn Brownell's system would work great...he just has to have better players to compete with our league...and it starts with a coach who gets kids excited and then facilities that wow kids into coming here....unfortunately its not about who is the best x's and o's guy these days.
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