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Replies: 34
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Paw Master [17352]
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Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
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Feb 18, 2024, 7:25 PM
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Pretty much sums up Brad’s tenure here.
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Game Day Hero [4149]
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Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
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Feb 18, 2024, 7:30 PM
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Also just beat the best team in the conference on their home floor and is a guarantee for the tournament.
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CU Medallion [19114]
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Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
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Feb 18, 2024, 7:45 PM
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And then crapped the bed against an 8 1/2 pt. underdog on our home floor. Tommy Bowden 2.0.
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Game Day Hero [4149]
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Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
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Feb 18, 2024, 8:05 PM
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We've won 3 of our last 4 and our last 3 losses were all by one point. Two of those games were against top 10 teams.
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Game Day Hero [4149]
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Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
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Feb 18, 2024, 8:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC ] |
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Also Tommy Bowden was always one year away from being a national title contender. He did way less with more than Brownell ever dreamed of.
Not a good comparison.
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CU Medallion [19114]
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Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
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Feb 18, 2024, 8:19 PM
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The results are the comparison.
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Orange Blooded [2458]
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Game Changer [1715]
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Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
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Feb 18, 2024, 8:15 PM
[ in reply to Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC ] |
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Also just beat the best team in the conference on their home floor and is a guarantee for the tournament.
Please, we are NOT a guarantee for the NCAA tournament
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Game Changer [2036]
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Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
Feb 19, 2024, 8:37 AM
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Not saying I agree with this assessment, but according to ESPN we are. And they have one of the best in the business at their disposal
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Hall of Famer [8532]
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Paw Master [17352]
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CU Guru [1054]
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Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
Feb 19, 2024, 8:42 AM
[ in reply to Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC ] |
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Who guarantees they will make the tournament? With 64 teams in, the tournament should never be viewed as a great achievement. Brownell is setting them up to loose the playin game for the acc tournament. That won’t bode well with the selection committee.
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Game Day Hero [4149]
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Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
Feb 19, 2024, 10:03 AM
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There are 350 D1 basketball programs.
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Ultimate Tiger [38459]
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Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
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Feb 18, 2024, 7:30 PM
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That is pretty much where our team is historically. Clemson AD'S don't care about men's BB. If they did, Brownie would have been gone 9 years ago or sooner.
Message was edited by: junk yard tiger®
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Orange Elite [5567]
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Also true.***
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Feb 18, 2024, 7:59 PM
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Rival Killer [2665]
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Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
Feb 19, 2024, 11:49 AM
[ in reply to Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC ] |
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I agree. Ohio St. fired its men's basketball coach mid-season because his team was not going to make the NCAA tournament for the second year in a row. Obviously, Ohio St. cares about its men's basketball program.
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All-In [10708]
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Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
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Feb 18, 2024, 7:45 PM
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Haven’t you heard, we shouldn’t expect more…
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Orange Elite [5567]
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Sad, pathetic and very very true.
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Feb 18, 2024, 7:58 PM
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No way else to spin it.
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Valley Legend [12192]
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Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
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Feb 18, 2024, 8:27 PM
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Sounds like every other basketball coach in the last hundred years. We are a soccer and football school, not a baseball and basketball school.
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National Champion [7955]
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Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
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Feb 18, 2024, 8:28 PM
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You got that right. Having our best team shows what Brad can do with a good team. Usually we hear the excuses that he is doing well with the talent he has. The talent is there the coaching is not. Bring back Greg Buckner and give him a chance. Can’t do any worse.
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Game Day Hero [4149]
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Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
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Feb 18, 2024, 8:46 PM
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Brad has one losing season and that was in year 2 I believe.
I promise we could do a lot worse.
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All-TigerNet [5940]
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Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
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Feb 19, 2024, 8:32 AM
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First, the overall losing season was year 3. Year 2 was 16-15...as was year 5...as was year 10. Years 7 and 12 were 17-16.
So 5 years out of 14 were exactly 1 game above a losing season, plus the losing season, plus a 17-14 season. Fully half of the seasons were just BARELY above .500.
And last year, with a 23-11 record, Clemson was still left out of the NCAAT (I won't mention the choke job against Morehead State in the NIT) so all those wins against Podunk U were not worth very much.
Brownell's overall winning percentage is .582. Over 14 years, that means he's won 37 more games than a .500 record, or +2.6 games per year over .500.
But really, you count winning 7-8 scrimmages against SC State and the like as a winning season? I only have to look at ACC conference play.
Brownell's ACC records:
9-7 (T4th)
8-8 (7th)
5-13 (11th)
10-8 (6th)
8-10 (T9th)
10-8 (T7th)
6-12 (12th)
11-7 (T3rd)
9-9 (T8th)
9-11 (9th)
10-6 (T5th)
8-12 (10th)
14-6 (T3rd)
7-7 (with Brownell's "best team ever").
Overall 124-124 (.500) in conference play. Average finish 7th/8th.
Oh, sure. Brownell has won more game that any previous HC at Clemson. That's only because we haven't fired him. He' also lost WAY more games than any head coach at Clemson.
His .582 percentage IS higher than Larry Shyatt's .455, but is lower than Bill Foster's .595, lower than Rick Barnes' .607, lower than Oliver Purnell's .611, 1 game's worth higher than Cliff Ellis's .580 (otoh, Cliff Ellis was ACC COY...twice...and won an ACC regular season title).
To give some credit, Brownell's ACC winning is better than anyone before him. However, he has the added benefit of playing in an expanded conference, with 20-game seasons, and unbalanced schedules (often not playing the top teams more than once). For example, his record-setting ACC finish last year (14-6, .700) is 4 games more than anyone else ever won, but still is a lower percentage than Cliff Ellis 10-4 (.714) season, and that 10-4 record won that CC regular season title, where Brownell's "record number of ACC wins" managed 3rd.
Plus, it's not by THAT much...Brownell is .500 in ACC play, Purnell was .464, Barnes was .438 (Shyatt, well, Shyatt was .250). If Barnes had won 4 games that he lost, he would have been at .500 (1 more game per year). If Purnell had won 4 games that he lost, he'd have been at .500 (about 1 game every other year).
In his 4 years at Clemson, Barnes made the NIT, then the NCAA 3 times, including a Sweet 16. In his 7 years at Clemson, Purnell, who started with Shyatt's teams, went to NIT 3 times, playing in NIT championship, then 3 NCAAT bids. In 14 years at Clemson, Brownell had 4 NIT bids (two first round exits), 3 NCAAT bids (one Sweet 16).
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All-TigerNet [5940]
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Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
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Feb 19, 2024, 8:39 AM
[ in reply to Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC ] |
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Sure we could do a lot worse, we could rehire Larry Shyatt.
But the numbers don't lie. There's a lot of room for someone, maybe even Brownell, to do a lot better.
With the results being what the painfully are, is "we could do worse" the best response? You honestly think Clemson could not hire a coach who can get better results than Brad Brownell, who has been given more than ample opportunity to prove his abilities?
The other argument has been largely "When we hire a really good coach, he gets hired away." As if that means we should never want to hire a really good coach.
Clemson hired Tommy West. Fired for poor performance. Hired Tommy Bowden. Would have been fired for poor performance, but had the good sense to quit. Hired Larry Shyatt. Fired for poor performance.
Clemson has hired and fired 4 women's basketball coaches in that last 15 years or so.
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Clemson Sports Icon [54047]
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Funny, we finished third in the ACC last year
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Feb 18, 2024, 8:57 PM
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but you and others said it didn’t matter. All you talked about was that the goal is to make the NCAA Tournament.
Well, we would easily be in the tournament if it started today, but you don’t seem to care - you’re focusing on the ACC standings.
Your arguments lose credibility when you move the goalposts.
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Game Changer [1646]
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Re: Funny, we finished third in the ACC last year
Feb 18, 2024, 9:10 PM
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Everyone wanted to be in the tournament last year. Didn't make it. Instead of Brad and company winning the NIT they lost the first game at home. As far as this year. I would love this team to make it, but we see the same pattern play out every year. All these great one point losses won't matter when they get passed over again. I am just hoping they get a few bad one point wins.
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Tiger Titan [48938]
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Paw Master [17352]
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Re: Funny, we finished third in the ACC last year
Feb 18, 2024, 10:39 PM
[ in reply to Funny, we finished third in the ACC last year ] |
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Find one of my posts where I said our goal is to make the ncaa tourney. I have never said that. My goal is to put a well coached team on the court.
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Oculus Spirit [43626]
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Paw Warrior [4824]
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Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
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Feb 18, 2024, 9:37 PM
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And this is a middling acc sadly
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TigerNet Icon [157900]
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We are currently one loss away from being tied for 11th.
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Feb 18, 2024, 9:38 PM
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And we were picked as the #4 preseason team in the ACC by the experts at CBS. 
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All-TigerNet [5940]
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Re: We are currently one loss away from being tied for 11th.
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Feb 19, 2024, 8:40 AM
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This is Brad Brownell's most talented and experienced team ever.
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National Champion [7688]
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Paw Master [16865]
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We made the sweet 16 in 2018
Feb 18, 2024, 9:52 PM
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I’d say that was our best team of the last 14 years.
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TigerNet Elite [72606]
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Best by which statistic?
Feb 19, 2024, 9:29 AM
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Serious question.
If W-L record, last season's team was better in that we finished 3rd in the regular ACC season. But, then crapped the bed with explosive diarrhea to finish the season.
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Offensive Star [331]
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Re: Our best basketball team in 14 years is tied for 7th in the ACC
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Feb 19, 2024, 9:41 AM
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They are talented, but statistically speaking, you could argue that they are not necessarily the most talented and experienced team he has ever had. According to the following model, here are his teams over the his tenure (minus the 2010-11 year due to lack of inclusion in the model) in terms of Offensive Performance Rating (OBPR), Defensive Performance Rating (DBPR), and Overall Performance Rating (BPR). The "B" refers to the model being in the Bayesian paradigm.
2023-24: 11.0 OBPR / 4.7 DBPR / 15.6 BPR
2022-23: 6.6 OBPR / 6.7 DBPR / 13.3 BPR
2021-22: 5.5 OBPR / 4.6 DBPR / 10.1 BPR
2020-21: 2.7 OBPR / 9.0 DBPR / 11.8 BPR
2019-20: 1.5 OBPR / 7.8 DBPR / 9.3 BPR
2018-19: 4.2 OBPR / 11.0 DBPR / 15.2 BPR
2017-18: 8.8 OBPR / 10.3 DBPR / 19.2 BPR
2016-17: 8.4 OBPR / 4.2 DBPR / 12.6 BPR
2015-16: 6.4 OBPR / 7.7 DBPR / 14.1 BPR
2014-15: 0.0 OBPR / 7.5 DBPR / 7.4 BPR
2013-14: 1.8 OBPR / 9.3 DBPR / 11.0 BPR
2012-13: -1.8 OBPR / 5.9 DBPR / 4.0 BPR
2011-12: 2.1 OBPR / 6.3 DBPR / 8.4 BPR
While this year's team is his best offensive team by a significant margin, his best overall performing team was his 2017-18 team, which went to the Sweet 16. The 2017-18 team was the second best offensive team he's had at Clemson. However, a large difference in why that team is rated as a better team was due to their defensive performance. In fact, this year's team rates as one of his worst teams according to this model. Now, it should be noted that in the last month, this current team's defensive performance has improved significantly. Thus, hopefully it can continue to improve while maintaining the offensive performance to become his best overall team (according to this statistical model).
Note:
* OBPR (Offensive Bayesian Performance Rating) reflects a team’s expected offensive efficiency. This is interpreted as the points per 100 possessions better than average expected when playing against an average D1 team. A higher rating is better.
* DBPR (Defensive Bayesian Performance Rating) reflects a team’s expected defensive efficiency. This is interpreted as the defensive points per 100 possessions better (lower) than average when playing against an average D1 team. A higher rating is better.
* BPR (Bayesian Performance Rating) reflects the sum of a team’s OBPR and DBPR. This rating is the ultimate measure of a team’s expected overall strength. This is interpreted as the number of points the team is expected to outscore an average D1 team by in an 100 possession game. A higher rating is better.
Source: https://evanmiya.com/?team_ratings
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Replies: 34
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