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Scout Team [170]
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Sounds to me like your best bet to get into heaven is to
Mar 27, 2020, 2:17 PM
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simply be born into the right conditions.
Born in Alabama -> Great chance!
Born in Saudi Arabia -> Sorry bro, enjoy the eternal torment.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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what is this scok babbling about today?***
Mar 27, 2020, 2:19 PM
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Scout Team [170]
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you can sit this one out, it involves basic reasoning skills***
Mar 27, 2020, 2:21 PM
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Lot o points [181005]
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Born IN the USA -> Bruce Springsteen***
Mar 27, 2020, 2:24 PM
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Scout Team [170]
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+1***
Mar 27, 2020, 2:36 PM
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All-In [46825]
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Can you imagine foregoing all of what life has to offer
Mar 27, 2020, 2:27 PM
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thinking your God is the right one and when you get to heaven it turns out a tribe in Africa who worships a giant frog was actually right and you're going straight to hell?
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: Can you imagine foregoing all of what life has to offer
Mar 27, 2020, 2:33 PM
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If it was up to me I would choose Islam to be correct. I would blow myself up in a heart beat if I knew I had a dozen virgins waiting on the other side.
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Scout Team [170]
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Did they specify that they were female virgins?***
Mar 27, 2020, 2:37 PM
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Scout Team [170]
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1st Rounder [635]
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Re: Can you imagine foregoing all of what life has to offer
Mar 28, 2020, 7:21 AM
[ in reply to Re: Can you imagine foregoing all of what life has to offer ] |
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Many things in Islam are one upped from others. the Crusaders were promised 69 virgins if they died, so Islam added 3. Like Lent and the giving up n meat on Friday, heck they upped it to 28 days ,no food ,drink, sex during daylight.
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: Sounds to me like your best bet to get into heaven is to
Mar 27, 2020, 2:32 PM
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And yet all the self proclaimed atheist on here were born into christian families, spent their entire lives in church, and have read the bible front to back multiple times.....
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All-In [46825]
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3 times actually.
Mar 27, 2020, 2:34 PM
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granted I did skip around in Numbers with all of the so and so begat so and so.
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: 3 times actually.
Mar 27, 2020, 2:41 PM
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So being born into a Christian family didn’t get you to heaven. You chose on your own not to believe.
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All-In [46825]
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No but if Christianity is the only correct way
Mar 27, 2020, 2:47 PM
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and the only way to get into heaven, If I wasn't born into Christianity and had no clue about it, how would I get into heaven?
Like the old story of the tribe member in South America. A missionary told him the story of Jesus and if he didn't accept Jesus in his heart he would go to hell.
The tribal member said, well if I didn't know anything about Jesus would I go to hell. The missionary said no because you didn't know. The tribal member said, well then why did you tell me?
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: No but if Christianity is the only correct way
Mar 27, 2020, 3:12 PM
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Your best objection yet.
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Scout Team [170]
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Re: 3 times actually.
Mar 27, 2020, 2:56 PM
[ in reply to Re: 3 times actually. ] |
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Just so we are clear, it is just in your mind that a kid born into the slums of India has virtually zero chance of becoming a Christian (through no fault of his own) and therefor will spend eternity in hell?
I don't buy it.
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: 3 times actually.
Mar 27, 2020, 3:15 PM
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How do you figure he has zero chance of becoming a Christian?
And furthermore, if Christianity was true, who’s fault would it be that that kid in India has no access to the gospel message? Is it God’s, or is it his ancestors who chose to reject the message?
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Scout Team [170]
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Re: 3 times actually.
Mar 27, 2020, 5:15 PM
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Even if it was his ancestors fault i still fail to see how it would be the kids.. he doesn’t control where he was born or what he was taught.
Your religion is mostly luck of the draw (and so is my non-religion btw). Had i been born elsewhere i would most likely follow whatever the culture is there.
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Legend [17915]
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Why do you say you would do that?
Mar 27, 2020, 5:37 PM
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Because you are the shining example of how to do it now - with where you are?
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Scout Team [170]
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Re: Why do you say you would do that?
Mar 27, 2020, 7:11 PM
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I grew up very conservative/christian yes. I kept my faith through college but it definitely made me question it. So it was mostly circumstance that shaped who am i yes; I didn’t just “decide” one day what to believe.
Also, what is with you guys and not understanding basic probability? If you are born in a Christian country, you will probably be christian, repeat that ad nauseam for every other belief system.
Muslims believe they are right just as much as you do but it has f all to do with choice. In general, you ate handed your religion. Not really sure how that can be disputed.
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: 3 times actually.
Mar 27, 2020, 7:07 PM
[ in reply to Re: 3 times actually. ] |
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So you want a world where there are no consequences for our actions?
That would be hell.
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Scout Team [170]
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Re: 3 times actually.
Mar 27, 2020, 7:17 PM
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Point me to where i said that. Of course there should be consequences for your actions. That is not in contradiction with the fact that certain things are out of your control.
Think of it this way, if a dog was attacking my family I would do everything I could to stop it. I wouldn’t sit around and think of why the dog was doing it or pontificate the moral reasoning behind the attack. It is just a natural consequence of action -> reaction.
Same with people, i don't care if the person premeditated it or was just insane, i would naturally react and try to stop him.
There isn’t really that much choice on either side of that equation, doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be consequences though.
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: 3 times actually.
Mar 27, 2020, 9:17 PM
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“ Even if it was his ancestors fault i still fail to see how it would be the kids.. he doesn’t control where he was born or what he was taught. “
You implied it right here. There are consequences for our actions and sometimes those consequences affect our children in a negative way.
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Scout Team [170]
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Re: 3 times actually.
Mar 27, 2020, 10:52 PM
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I honestly think you are missing my point unless you simply think it’s just for a child to pay for the sins of his father in the form of eternal punishment.
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: 3 times actually.
Mar 28, 2020, 7:27 AM
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I’m just pointing out the flaws in the logic you are using.
You’re saying it’s unfair for god to send a child to hell who’s born in India and doesn’t have a good chance of hearing the gospel.
I’m saying if that’s true, which technically it’s not because there are reports of people in Muslim countries coming to Christ in droves, it’s the fault of his Muslim ancestors for rejecting.
There are consequences for our actions. You sound mad that that’s the case. I guess you want a world where our actions do not affect our kids.
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Scout Team [170]
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Re: 3 times actually.
Mar 28, 2020, 7:35 AM
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Again, I’m not disputing that there are consequences for our actions. What i am saying is that it is not juat that a person would spend an eternity in hell for this sins of his father. That’s psychotic.
You can point our anecdotes all you want but the vast majority of people won’t go against the grain of whatever culture they were born into.
This all makes sense with a secular worldview
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: 3 times actually.
Mar 28, 2020, 7:40 AM
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I know you’re not disputing it, you are upset about it I guess.
But I can’t imagine a world without it. If we could do whatever we want when it came to raising our kids and it wouldn’t affect them, that would be a scary world IMO.
It would also take away the good feelings like seeing them graduate or excel in sports. Why? Because it wouldn’t matter what we personally did to help them along the way.
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Scout Team [170]
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Grapes look like nuts to a blind man.***
Mar 29, 2020, 7:44 PM
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All-In [47750]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Almost 2 million Christians in Saudi Arabia***
Mar 27, 2020, 2:58 PM
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Scout Team [170]
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Do you guys not understand what anecdotal evidence is?
Mar 27, 2020, 3:12 PM
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Yeah, there are 2 million christians there, but for the vast majority that won't be the case. In fact, a lot of them would be murdered for converting.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Do you guys not understand what anecdotal evidence is?
Mar 27, 2020, 3:18 PM
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Scout Team [170]
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Re: Do you guys not understand what anecdotal evidence is?
Mar 27, 2020, 7:20 PM
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That doesn’t contradict my statement at all. I didn’t say it was impossible or that it never happens. My claim is that your faith is mostly based on your circumstances.
Of course a country boy COULD become a Muslim but I think you’d agree that is highly unlikely.
My position is that if you are born in Saudi Arabia you have a much higher probability of becoming a muslim than a christian. Tell me where the choice in that really is?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Do you guys not understand what anecdotal evidence is?
Mar 27, 2020, 11:17 PM
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Scout Team [170]
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Re: Do you guys not understand what anecdotal evidence is?
Mar 27, 2020, 11:27 PM
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Wait wait wait, it’s “libbie thinking” to assert that your environment plays a large roll in how you turn out?
So you honestly think that a kid who grows up in a poverty stricken, abusive home has the same opportunities as someone with a loving/supportive family?
Like, you really don’t think that has a huge effect on how someone makes decisions?
Life is a much bigger crapshoot than you are willing to admit.
You are currently in whatever position you are mostly by dint of things you had no control over.
This should make you more compassionate, not less.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Do you guys not understand what anecdotal evidence is?
Mar 27, 2020, 11:44 PM
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Scout Team [170]
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Re: Do you guys not understand what anecdotal evidence is?
Mar 28, 2020, 7:26 AM
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So you agree that its much more difficult for some than others to make into heaven (through no fault of their own).
Sounds like a pretty sadistic game to me. I’m inclined not to believe it.
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: Do you guys not understand what anecdotal evidence is?
Mar 28, 2020, 7:31 AM
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I don’t agree with that. In fact I think it’s easier for some people who haven’t been indoctrinated to believe. You’re living proof of that.
So am I actually because I was raised in a Christian home and still struggle with my faith.
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Scout Team [170]
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Re: Do you guys not understand what anecdotal evidence is?
Mar 28, 2020, 8:22 AM
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I don’t follow your logic there
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Oculus Spirit [83121]
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Sounds to me like you're deaf.
Mar 27, 2020, 3:59 PM
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I suspect you aren't but you're struggling to discern what you're hearing. No, I think those ears you see when you look in the mirror are working fine.
There are two bodies. The physical and the spiritual. I can't tell if you are spiritually alive or not. I regard what you say here on this forum and wonder why you show so much interest in spiritual matters. That causes me doubt about your sincerity.
Anyway, if you're willing to be civilized for a minute I'm willing to explain the fault of your reasoning. Say?
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Scout Team [170]
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Re: Sounds to me like you're deaf.
Mar 27, 2020, 7:22 PM
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Go for it. I’ll be civilized.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Re: Sounds to me like you're deaf.
Mar 28, 2020, 10:49 AM
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Eternity isn't a collection of infinite time. God did not create anything which subjugates Him, He is eternal.
The definition of physical death is simple. The heart doesn't beat because there's no brain activity to direct it to beat. Spiritual life and death are simple too. The soul is eternal whether alive or dead. Eternal life is in having Christ as a savior. Eternal death is denying Him as a savior.
We enter this world with physical life but not everyone enters with spiritual life. Some are spiritually dead. Some came from God and others are just human. When a man asked Christ to save him they don't magically come alive. Their souls are cleansed and the Holy Spirit can abide in their hearts. The suddenly realize they are alive, that's all.
Those born with dead spirits never know it. They think they are god. They can't sense God, they don't want to hear about it and their eternity will just as dead as it is in this life. They will spend eternity without God.
Anyone thinking that being born in Saudi Arabia creates a situation in which God can't find you just doesn't know my God. My God created the universe which required incalculable energy. That's really not a big deal to Him. The fact that His power didn't diminish a single calorie doing it isn't either.
Finding one of His children, in Saudi Arabia? If one of your kids was lost what is your spending limit on finding them and bringing them home? God has no limits. He took on the body of a man and gave Himself to torture and death on a cross to save His children. Not one living soul will be lost. Not one.
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Scout Team [170]
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Re: Sounds to me like you're deaf.
Mar 28, 2020, 11:29 AM
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Well i can honestly say that is a take I’ve never heard before...
Some people are born from God spiritually awake and some are “just human”?
I think this just backs up my idea that there is no choice in it.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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No, you're attempting to imagine what an eternal would...
Mar 28, 2020, 3:43 PM
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think. It's like a squirrel trying to think like a rabbit. From our perspective it is a choice. Do you not have the freedom to choose Christ as your savior? What prevents you, certainly not I. Even if you think I'm the nastiest person on earth and want nothing to do with anything I find attractive.
Even if Hitler claimed to be Christian that still should not prevent a reasonable person asking Christ to save them.
I expected better from you. You present as someone who is intelligent, inquisitive and even driven by pure logic but your emotions cause your mind's failings and seem to multiply as you consider new concepts.
You're deceived, perhaps you're deceiving yourself. Were I to offer you medicine to make you live in health, virility and youth until you're 100 yrs old would you refuse it because I'm rude or because I support Trump? No, you wouldn't and neither would anyone else yet here we are.
You fully understand that the presentation before you is a choice you can make yet you don't understand that your refusal is an insult to God for if I offered you 100 yrs of life, youth and health there is only one reason to refuse it. You do not believe that my offer is real. You think I am deceiving you, you make me to be a liar. In essence, you make God a liar and yourself the foundation of truth. You are your own god.
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Scout Team [170]
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Re: No, you're attempting to imagine what an eternal would...
Mar 28, 2020, 4:38 PM
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I don’t understand the “ you are your own god” thing that Christians always say. Like what? I’m just a dude, I don’t think if have magical powers (or even complete control over circumstances in my life) but i digress on that...
But back your point. Could you really “choose” to believe that 2+2 = 5 or that Zeus is the real god? Of course not, beliefs don’t work that way. The only difference between you and I is that I believe in one less God than you do. You think Islam is as ridiculous as i do. I stand in the same position to your religion that you do to all the others, it’s only special to you because you happen to be part of that group.
Also, i am not calling you a liar, i think you 100% believe what you are saying. But so do the Jehovah's witnesses that knock on my door or the muslims I've met. Your story isn’t any more convincing.
Its easy to claim all this “spirtual child” stuff when you don’t have to back it up. You just have to “have faith”, i.e. just believe it in lieu of evidence.
Again, i think you really believe this stuff but what I don’t believe is that you can back it up.
If all this was really created by and for an all powerful god, why is it so hard to tell that he exists?
I know you’ll say im “spiritually blind” or whatever but ok... that would just mean its being hidden from me. Kind of a silky thing for a god to do.
Long story short, no I can’t just “choose to believe it”, it’s exactly the same concept as telling me to just believe president trump is in my backyard. I find that extremely hard to believe but i could be convinced quite quickly if, you know, you showed me him standing there in the yard.
I don’t claim to be the smartest person by any stretch bit it’s laughable to assert that you ate offering me a reasonable claim that I’m arrogantly/emotionally rejecting. You are making one whopper of an extraordinary claim, I don’t think asking for a little proof is unreasonable.
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: No, you're attempting to imagine what an eternal would...
Mar 28, 2020, 4:49 PM
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You don’t think it’s the slightest bit arrogant to act like you have it all figured out and that everyone who comes to the conclusion that God does exist is a buffoon?
You’ve seen me present arguments for both sides. I don’t claim to know the answer definitively, but I don’t think I could ever accept that the world and all it’s complexity spun into existence from nothing out of pure chance.
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Scout Team [170]
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Re: No, you're attempting to imagine what an eternal would...
Mar 28, 2020, 5:03 PM
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Honestly that’s just you putting words in my mouth, saying religion is illogical is not a claim to know everything.
I don’t know a lot and will readily admit that. I don’t know why you get so hung up on the “everything from nothing” argument either. I don’t claim to know what caused the big bang, or what happened “before” that if such a thing even exists.
But regardless, we have pretty solid evidence of the big bang and we certainly have evidence for evolution. So even if there is a creator he must have done so through the natural process of evolution.
I’m not claiming that 100% for sure there isn’t some kind of deity; i obviously have no way to know that. I simply don’t have a reason to believe there is one is all. It’s really that simple.
If the bible is to be taken literally though then yes that particular claim is directly refuted by the theory of evolution. I’m more inclined to believe experimental evidence found by universities/researchers all over the world (independently verified btw) than some dude in the pulpit.
Would it be “arrogant” of me to claim that santa doesn’t exist? I can’t prove that he doesn’t. I would think not so why is it arrogant to claim that your particular diety doesn’t exist other than it makes you mad?
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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In the beginning God...
Mar 28, 2020, 5:19 PM
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created the heavens and the earth. I have never said there wasn't a big bang but frankly, in strict scientific analysis, there is no sound transfer in the void of space. Since this universe was built in eternity as a point on a graph perhaps scientist stumbled upon an accurate term for the creation. I don't think so but it's not a question I would ask of God because I'm not curious.
Maybe that was before God designed and build the vacuum of space. Who knows? All I know is that God created and Christ on the cross. To you, Christ on the cross is your escape.
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: No, you're attempting to imagine what an eternal would...
Mar 28, 2020, 5:53 PM
[ in reply to Re: No, you're attempting to imagine what an eternal would... ] |
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I'm not mad at all and I don't think you mean to come off as arrogantly as you do. I actually enjoy these debates. Contrary to what some believe I think they are healthy. They get people thinking instead of just being stuck in whatever they were told to believe. I have challenged my beliefs and still do. I think there are good arguments for a Creator. The strongest being the fine tuning of the universe and the ability humans have over the billions of other species. I think the Christian worldview, while not perfect, seems to fit the evidence the best.
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Scout Team [170]
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Re: No, you're attempting to imagine what an eternal would...
Mar 28, 2020, 6:06 PM
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Good, glad you enjoy them; so do I. I have zero doubt that we’d get along in real life (ct88 included) we would just have fun disagreeing on some things.
I am also interested in the fine tuning argument. It is a bit mind blowing to think about.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Re: No, you're attempting to imagine what an eternal would...
Mar 28, 2020, 7:11 PM
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agree
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Scout Team [170]
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Re: No, you're attempting to imagine what an eternal would...
Mar 29, 2020, 12:06 AM
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+1 I honestly wish you the best life had to offer even if we disagree
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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I refuse to respond to people who just want to troll...
Mar 29, 2020, 7:19 PM
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Christians but it delights me to no end to have a conversation with a lost person who has serious questions about when, how and why. I began to participate in a love affair between God and me before I turned 20. My first storybook was Bible oriented and a great part of my reading as a child was Scripture.
By the time I was 13 or 14 years old I had the same questions you guys pose here. I dismissed those questions because I thought the topics were beyond man's comprehension. Indeed, they are and were for me because I attempted to use the wrong mechanism for an analytical exercise.
'If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.'
When a question comes to me I sometimes feel moved to ask.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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I was saying that if I offered you health to age 100 and...
Mar 28, 2020, 5:14 PM
[ in reply to Re: No, you're attempting to imagine what an eternal would... ] |
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you refused it would be because you don't believe I can do it. Your inability to believe supports my supposition that some of us have no living spirit within. Humans have human minds. Christian, though some of us are children have the mind of Christ. A mind which can receive the very concept of God and His love. We never get the entirety of Him but we can know the depth, height and breath of the love of God which passes your understanding.
We are not arguing because we agree. You give your perspective from man who is spiritually dead (or doesn't yet know he is spiritually alive) and I give you a perspective of one with a living spirit.
You are saying you can't believe and I'm just trying to explain why. Don't make this my fault. This is your threat and I am fully aware that you are just trolling Christian believes. You should be thanking me for entertaining you for in this thread I have certainly cast pearls before swine.
You aren't the first 'science believer,' religion I've dealt with.
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Scout Team [170]
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Re: I was saying that if I offered you health to age 100 and...
Mar 28, 2020, 6:20 PM
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Again, i must ask, what’s with the “science believer religion” “you think you are your own god” thing?
For one, science is not a religion just like math is not a religion. A teacher showed me that 4x12=48, showed me why that is and it makes sense to believe it.
Same thing with evolution, dna gets copied but its not a perfect process so sometimes there are mistakes during the process (known as mutations) most of these are either harmful and the organism dies/doesn’t reproduce, benign (nothing happens) and very rarely it produces a beneficial mutation. Although rare, this happens a lot given the number of copies of dna being made at any give time. Repeat ad nauseam and you see the spectacular spectrum of life.
Its a pretty simple idea back up by evidence (same ad math) but for some reason (it contradicts your worldview) you don’t like this particular scientific fact.
It’s not because it doesn’t make sense. It’s not because it isn’t back up by facts. Its because (again ironically) you are blinded by your religious beliefs.
I am not a member of some religious science cult and I don’t think imm my own god, so ironically, it is you calling me the liar.
So again, what do you have to back up these “spiritual child” claims? Like why specifically do you believe that to be the case?
The MAIN difference between you and i is that i will back up my claims with evidence or i will simply say I don’t know. You on the other hand literally want me to believe something you can show me has any merit whatsoever.
I’m totally open to the idea (I’m skeptical of course) but that seems like a trivial think for an omnipotent god to change no?
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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All painters are drunks but not all drunks are painters.
Mar 28, 2020, 6:51 PM
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While math is a science all science is not like math. Science doubles in knowledge every 25 years. Math is fundamentally immutable.
I'm not arguing climate change or evolution with you. You exercise more faith to believe them than it takes for me to believe in God. Best we stick to the subject of why you don't believe rather than a distraction to what you believe.
I realize that I brought that up and I regret doing that. I apologize.
You don't believe in God. No prob, bob. You think man is the supreme being. You are man. Tell me again you don't think man is god.
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Scout Team [170]
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Re: All painters are drunks but not all drunks are painters.
Mar 29, 2020, 12:10 AM
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I don’t think man is “supreme being” we are just one of millions of modern animals. We just happen to be the most intelligent.
Also, it requires zero faith to “believe” in evolution. It requires no more belief than to believe that baking soda and hydrogen peroxide will produce a reaction. Both are obvious after experimentation.
Also, ill tell you again, man is not god; i certainly never claimed such a thing, you keep saying it. Man is just another animal. There is probably nothing supernatural.
Stay safe in this coronavirus crap; i mean that sincerely.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Experiment and evolution in the same sentence?
Mar 29, 2020, 5:56 AM
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lol
You stay safe too.
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Oculus Spirit [83121]
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That’s all good and fine but I don’t see how anyone could
Mar 29, 2020, 7:34 PM
[ in reply to Re: Sounds to me like you're deaf. ] |
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deny that his statement above is accurate.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Sounds to me like your best bet to get into heaven is to
Mar 27, 2020, 4:38 PM
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simply be born into the right conditions.
Born in Alabama -> Great chance!
Born in Saudi Arabia -> Sorry bro, enjoy the eternal torment.
That is a fair and reasonable supposition.
My response would be that God will sort all of that out.
I find it useful to separate my concept of God from
other men's concept of God, including some Christians.
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Legend [17915]
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Jesus is the Only Way to heaven
Mar 27, 2020, 5:41 PM
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Isn't it an amazing thing that He came to this world - on THEIR side of it too - and yet it is all the way over here where you are arguing about people "not knowing".
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Scout Team [170]
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Re: Jesus is the Only Way to heaven
Mar 27, 2020, 7:23 PM
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I must be missing your point.
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All-In [40934]
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when you are on your death bed
Mar 28, 2020, 7:24 AM
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repent and you are in, just in case. Just make sure you repent to all the different Gods.
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Hall of Famer [22945]
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Islam version of heaven sounds good too***
Mar 29, 2020, 7:59 PM
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