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Topic: This Brownell protection by our fan base is the most
Replies: 42   Last Post: Mar 14, 2019 6:47 PM by: Neal in NC®
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Replies: 42  

This Brownell protection by our fan base is the most

[16]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 7:57 AM
    Reply

Mind boggling thing I’ve ever seen.

Why is this fan base sooooo split on this guy?

Here are the facts and you can take them for whatever you want.... but these aren’t debatable. These are just the facts.


1) he’s been here 9 seasons. 1 ncaa Tournament with his players.

2) losing almost every close game. Some absurd stat like 2-15 or something in last 3 years in 3 point games. No.... we’re not going to win all of them but 40% maybe wouldn’t be too much to ask???

3) the myth he’s a great x and o coach. Where’s the proof? I’m asking a serious question here! Show me... cause I can show you where we’ve lost almost every single close game and blown big leads.



Again.... those 3 points I just made are not opinions.... those are facts.


Re: This Brownell protection by our fan base is the most

[3]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 8:00 AM
    Reply
MatthewHenry.jpg(107.6 K)




Re: This Brownell protection by our fan base is the most

[4]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 8:05 AM
    Reply

Why did you bring in politics so quickly? We've known how the Democrat/Socialists are already.

JK :)


Re: This Brownell protection by our fan base is the most


Posted: Mar 14, 2019 4:39 PM
    Reply

My bad.


I’m no Brownell apologist, but...

[6]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 8:05 AM
    Reply

1) Technically we don’t know if we’ve made the NCAA Tounament this year or not, so it’s not fair to count year 9 against him yet.

2) “Some absurd stat like 2-15 or something” sounds more like a guess than a fact.

3) That last one appears to be a question, not a fact.




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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Re: I’m no Brownell apologist, but...


Posted: Mar 14, 2019 8:10 AM
    Reply

So, we should wait a few days on #1?
Can someone help on #2, because I think it's been discussed Ad Nauseam on t-net?

We definitely want fairness to be included, as we've only had 9 freaking years to help us form some opinions. Just saying.


I did a quick check and in last 3 seasons...


Posted: Mar 14, 2019 8:29 AM
    Reply

we are 4-14 in 1 possession games. There are probably 5-6 more that were 4-5 pt games and the ratio is about the same.

We still could make the NCAAT bc guys like Lunardi and Jerry Palm aren't on the committee but its hard to justify at this point. Yes we had a tough schedule and played some of those teams well....we just didn't win.

And you are correct, 9 years is a heckuva a sample size to make the decision. Again, it just comes down to how much the administration cares about basketball


What does any of that have to do with the op not knowing...

[3]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 9:34 AM
    Reply

the definition of "fact"?

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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Re: What does any of that have to do with the op not knowing...

[1]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 10:50 AM
    Reply

Dude... your little act on tigernet is old and played out. Nobody thinks you’re funny, nobody thinks it’s cute.

Every single post you make is to try to be funny or act like a jaackasss... get over yourself

Signed- everfukinbody


If you want to make an argument, one way or the other...

[2]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 11:09 AM
    Reply

that’s fine, but don’t insult the intelligence of the good posters on this board by providing “facts” to support your argument that are, in fact, not “facts”. Good lort, at least research the stats you’re posting as “fact” before you post them. And if you’re going to post made up “facts”, don’t be surprised if someone points it out.

2019 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg

"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Re: I’m no Brownell apologist, but...


Posted: Mar 14, 2019 9:38 AM
    Reply

As well as just throwing 40% out there as the appropriate amount of 1 possession losses. A bit more arbitrary than fact.

Also fact that he has been to two NCAAs, but that fact doesn’t tilt the argument as much in your favor.


My only argument is that the op misused the word "fact"...

[2]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 9:40 AM
    Reply

and I am correct. That is a fact.

2019 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg

"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


and is not

[1]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 10:33 AM
    Reply

debatable


Re: I’m no Brownell apologist, but...


Posted: Mar 14, 2019 9:38 AM
    Reply

As well as just throwing 40% out there as the appropriate amount of 1 possession losses. A bit more arbitrary than fact.

Also fact that he has been to two NCAAs, but that fact doesn’t tilt the argument as much in your favor.


Re: I’m no Brownell apologist, but...


Posted: Mar 14, 2019 9:38 AM
    Reply

As well as just throwing 40% out there as the appropriate amount of 1 possession losses. A bit more arbitrary than fact.

Also fact that he has been to two NCAAs, but that fact doesn’t tilt the argument as much in your favor.


One possession game records

[1]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 10:02 AM
    Reply

According to my quick compilation, we are 18-40 in one possession games (3 points or less) since Brownell has been the coach. In no season have we ever won more than we lost, but we did have even records in 2013-14 and 2014-15 (2-2 and 4-4 respectively). Since 2015-16, we are 7-20 in these games.

I thought maybe this was due to the "Tobacco Road bias" and that we've always lost more than we won in these close games, but a review of records during Purnell's time refutes that theory. During Purnell's tenure, we were 21-18 in one possession games. We were able to win more than we lost in 4 of his 7 years.


It is a fact that it was a question, does that count?***

[1]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 11:24 AM
    Reply




The fan base is split due to several other facts

[18]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 8:45 AM
    Reply

1. He has made the NCAA Tournament twice, at Clemson with a 3-2 record at the tournament and a Sweet 16 appearance. Clemson has made the Sweet 16 four times including last year, so CBB accounts for 25% of those appearances.

2. Clemson has made the tournament 12 times. Twice under Brad.

3. Brad has set record graduation rates for Clemson men's basketball players. I know winning games is important, but this is a big part of his job as well.

4. His players do not get into trouble.

5. His teams are competitive. We rarely get blown out like the days of Shyatt. We are no longer in the running for the ACC tournament's bottom seed.

Look, I want Clemson to win in basketball as much as anyone, but you can't only list negatives. Our players went 10+ minutes without hitting a shot yesterday, and it's not like they didn't get some good looks. I remember one offensive set that got Reed a layup in the paint that he missed. There was one timeout Brad called during NCSU's run, he drew up a play and we proceed to turn it over on the inbounds pass. That's not a reflection on his Xs & Os ability.

To be honest, I'm split on whether I'd like to see him fired or kept longer. But looking at next year, I'm already dreading tnet if he's coaching again because it's most likely not going to be a good year.

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"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


Those appear to be actual facts.***

[1]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 9:22 AM
    Reply



2019 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg

"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


This isn't funny FM.

[3]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 11:58 AM
    Reply

It appears your little act on Tnet really is getting old and played out.

2019 purple level member

If pigs are so smart, why do 66% of them use weak and inferior materials during construction?


Re: The fan base is split due to several other facts

[9]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 9:29 AM
    Reply

^ This. Folks forget we were robbed in 13-14. Not only were we 20+ wins and above .500 but they selected a NC state team that was 17-14 and only .500... which we beat by 17 points.

I often think that there are two types of Clemson basketball fans. Realistically, there are more

Those that do not pay attention until the "results"... and then crow accordingly. There the ones that will show up to the UNC game but completely ignore the Lipscomb game. In bad seasons they ignore the team and in good seasons they wonder why we are not 32-0. The come to the boards go grief and generally can't tell you beyond the "result" headline. The funny thing is that this group now looks fondly back at OP and at the same time were the folks griefing in 2009 about not winning in the tournament

Second are the basketball "realist" that are Clemson fans. One, the actually bother to watch the non top25 matches, want to beat Tech as much as any other team and follow the whole basketball season. I jokingly say that these folks only buy the first day of the ACC Tourneyment's tickets in advance. One because of real expectations and two, if we beat someone the other teams fanbase will sell off CHEAP! They are also the ones that are in Littlejohn watching the December games when LJ is maybe 40% full and the football team gets a standing ovation for their newest trophy... the biggest cheer of the night at a good backetball team.

What happens is that the "results" folks tend to harp on the realist folks for accepting "mediocre". The realist folks point to the LJ's attendance and spending and tell the "results" folks that they are asking for "Clemson football results" with "Wake Forest level investment". So we go around and around.


Here is the trick, I think Brad Brownell has plateaued... but that is as much to do with reaching Clemson current plateau in the sport. Yeah, you can say that FSU/VT are kinda in that boatbut they do invest more in basketball and we would not trade them for their BB for our football success. However, it looks to me there are at least 8 program invest more and get more than us, but there are also 5 programs spending more and getting less.

Next folks harp on the renovations of Littlejohn as "investment".

We spent 70 million to renovate LJ. UVA thinks that is cute. They spent $130 million on JPJ arena in 2006... or 178 million in current dollars. Folks wonder why UVA is doing well... it is because they put their chips "all in" basketball 13 years ago... we did the same thing in Football. Which leads me to the final point that bugs me to no end...

The Bowden/Brownell comparison. Anytime I see this I know that the poster has no clue about Clemson basketball.

Bowden was amidst a major modernization of the program to elite facility support. He then turned top-ACC level investment into mediocre returns. Brad received modernization of the basketball program to a slightly above average mid-major level investment and has turned a minimum input to midlevel "mediocre" results. The results folks just can't grasp that VCU invests more money into their basketball program and they actually show up to basketball games.


^^^ THIS!!!!

[1]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 11:35 AM
    Reply

100% true.

2019 white level member

Re: This Brownell protection by our fan base is the most

[3]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 9:23 AM
    Reply

I am all for keeping brad around if it keeps providing us all of this free entertainment on the tnets. Really the only reason I see for someone to want to fire him is because they do not like his face, but he can coach pretty well otherwise. I mean we have been an utter embarrassment at times, remember how much worse things can be here.

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Re: This Brownell protection by our fan base is the most


Posted: Mar 14, 2019 9:28 AM
    Reply

What we've seen with Dabo is that it's not the best "X's & O's" guy that wins championships. It's the guy who can get players to buy in to his system and believe in themselves and their teammates. Dabo isn't a technical genius as far as X's & O's. But you'd be hard pressed to find a better motivator of young men at any level in any profession in America. He's smart enough to have good "technicians" working for him and he simply "steers the ship." Will the same principle not work in basketball? I like BB. He's a nice guy. He seems to care about his players and they do stay out of trouble. But, as we've seen with football, you can have that and Championships too with the right coach. I was also a Tommy Bowden fan. Who can argue that he is a great guy. But when you make what these guys make, being a nice guy and staying out of trouble isn't enough. You make 7 figures a year to win the right way. Our football program is doing just that. Out basketball program is not. I think 9 years is long enough. But then, that's just my humble opinion. Go Tigers!

2019 white level member

Re: This Brownell protection by our fan base is the most

[5]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 9:37 AM
    Reply

Actually the same principle is working here.

Dabo and Brownell are both coaching up the resources and bringing a return on investment that is much greater.

Dabo takes a top 15 nationally investment and keeps us in the top 4 with several national championships.

Brownell takes a 70th-range investment and returns us a 37th-ish ranked team that is often fighting for tournament space.


Keep in mind that our assistant football coaches make as much as Brad (realistically more). But the coaches salary isn't the only spending as folks point to Bennett and Brownell being kinda similar... but then you have to consider that UVA outspent us by 100 million in facilities JPJ arena (178m vs 70m).


Re: This Brownell protection by our fan base is the most


Posted: Mar 14, 2019 11:15 AM
    Reply

Can't compare basketball salaries with football salaries. Football brings in orders of magnitude more revenue than any other sport, including basketball. If you're making the argument that a million per year isn't a lot of money for a basketball coach, I beg to differ. Granted, it's not what the superstar coaches make. But it should be more than enough to hire a coach that can consistently get us in to the NCAA Tournament. I doubt that we'll ever win the National Championship in hoops, and I can live with that. The AcC is still "The Conference" for basketball. But let's be serious for a minute; we ought to be in the Tournament every year. Arguing that BB doesn't make enough to get us to be a "big time program" doesn't hold water. What did Dabo make his first few years? Peanuts, compared to what other "big time programs" paid their coaches. And he even dedicated some of those early earnings to help pay assistants. Yet look at where we aare today. I'm telling you, the head coach sets the tone for the program and should willingly take credit or blame for the success or failure of the program "over time." If not after nine years, how long before we decide BB isn't making it happen? Dabo would hever have gotten 9 years without winning the ACC! At some point, we've got to decide if the same ideals apply to all major sports or just to football. Tell me the Administration is content with where we are and I'll leave it alone. I just won't worry about basketball anymore. But we can't imply that we're serious about winning and settle for mediocrity. Go TIgers!

2019 white level member

I'm going to start ignoring all posts

[2]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 11:41 AM
    Reply

comparing basketball to football. I'm so tired of reading about how great Dabo is and how we need the same kind of guy for basketball. As I've said hundreds of times now, the two sports aren't comparable at Clemson because one gets everything it could possibly want and need, and the other has to scratch and claw for whatever it gets. One is supported really well by fans, the other isn't.

2019 white level member

I don't see Brad having trouble motivating his players.

[5]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 11:37 AM
    Reply

In fact, I would argue that he's a heck of a motivator. Most teams would get down on themselves after 1 or 2 close losses, and their effort would suffer. Our players have played their butts off all year, despite some truly heartbreaking losses. They always hustle, and never stop competing.

Be upset with results if you like, but knocking the effort (and our coach's ability to motivate his players) is ridiculous.

And please stop with the Tommy Bowden comparisons.

2019 white level member

Agree***

[1]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 4:27 PM
    Reply



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"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


Re: I don't see Brad having trouble motivating his players.

[1]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 4:53 PM
    Reply

2 Points for you judge.

I get the resources issue, but by constantly harping on that, it gives the impression you think coaching doesn't really matter. I can't buy that and 2 perfect examples are on Clemson's campus. Most of the recent financial backing for Dabo has come after he's proven it on the field and there was a clear upward trajectory from the Bowden years. BTW, Bowden's teams were not resource poor either, but coaching was the primary difference. Second example, is Amanda Butler. Her coaching is clearly the difference this year from previous years, and it's not due to a huge influx of resources.

I keep asking this but I have yet to see your answer. What would it take for you to support making a coaching change away from Brownell? He's had 9 years. If we luck in the tournament this year, it will only be his 2nd in 9 years with his players. Is it 10 years, 15 years with the same results? Is making 2 NCAA tournaments every 10 years enough for you? Basically, he's has 3 generations of players and the results are mediocre at best.

Make the move now. Next year's going to be awful with 4 starters gone anyway, so let a new coach use it to change the mindset and put his system in place.

And in case you say who, Steve Alford, Thad Motta for 2. At the very least get a top recruited. If UGA can get Crean, we can get a big name coach too. But not as long as we accept being mediocre with BB.


I’m not excusing coaching and I’m sorry it came across that way.

[2]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 5:05 PM
    Reply

Brad isn’t perfect, and I’m sure he would be the first to admit that. I just don’t think we need to expect a new coach to solve our problems, because our problems are much more significant and long-standing than that.

I think Brad is a really good coach who would ideally have another year or two to see how recruiting goes. The new facilities and additional staff don’t pay off overnight, so I’d like to see how that progresses. However, I also realize that we are almost a decade into Brad’s tenure and sometimes things get stale.

I’m very open to a change, but for me, it depends on who we get to replace him. Someone like Steve Alford? I’m all for it. He’s a great guy and has been successful in major college basketball. However, if we are going to keep looking for the diamond in the rough from the mid-major ranks, continue supporting basketball at a poor level, and expect him to be successful and also be happy to stay at Clemson, then no thanks. I’d rather stick with Brad in that case, because I know we will be competitive and have a coach that does things the right way.

2019 white level member

Re: This Brownell protection by our fan base is the most

[1]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 9:33 AM
    Reply

I like Brad and he runs a clean program. It appears he has some pretty solid players lined up for next year. Making a move now might cause us to lose them. He made some assistant changes a couple years ago and yet here we are. From Sweet 16 to dumptsterville. If you make a change it better be a good one. Or all you do is keep bumping down this sorry road

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Re: This Brownell protection by our fan base is the most


Posted: Mar 14, 2019 9:40 AM
    Reply

I'm not protecting him.I'm protecting my Brad Brownell Bobble -Head Doll.
Thing is this. I like Brad. Heck, I like all of our coaches, but there is just something lacking in this basketball program. And as with all the programs, it starts with the Head Coach.
So I'll call it Consistency. How long can you tolerate finishing 4th or worse in the conference? Or making the Big Dance only every 4 or 5 years.
How long can you put up with teams that go on 5 or 6 minutes ( on longer) scoring droughts game in and game out, or miss free throws in crucial situations, like with less than a minute to go.
How many games does it take to get out muscled by teams like FSU, or lose close games on the road, or at a neutral site like yesterday? We lost twice this season in the last minute to N.C.State for crying out loud. If Jim Valvano were still the Head Coach, I could understand that. But I couldn't tell you right now who their Head Coach is without doing a Google Search.
No, the problem as I see it is Consistency. We are just Consistently bad.
And I blame that on the Head Coach!
Oh, and please don't tell me we made the Sweet 16 last year because I would hate to bring up that home loss we had against Oakland University in 2017 N.I.T.


the fact that you can't tell me that Kevin Keatts is

[4]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 10:14 AM
    Reply

NCSU's basketball coach tells me all I need to know about your basketball knowledge, or lack thereof.

2019 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg

"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


^^not factual^^

[1]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 6:21 PM
    Reply

please see op for fact check - oh wait....

2019 purple level member

I for one am glad you are stopping. You are one of the most ignorant posters ever. You obviously think very highly of your own opinion, unlike the rest of us - RockHillTiger


Re: This Brownell protection by our fan base is the most

[3]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 10:34 AM
    Reply

There are few things worse than someone who cherry picks facts to support their narrative. Tells me their argument will not stand up to scrutiny when an honest review is completed.

Look at what happened a few years ago when the coots were looking for a football coach. Their fans thought coaches would jump at the chance to compete in the mighty SEC. Did not work out so well as big name coaches will not take the risk. CU basketball is in a similar situation.

Basketball expectations

Run a clean program
Graduate players
Be competitive
Beat the coots
In a five year period: two dance invitations and two NIT berths
Don’t suck funds from other programs which have a higher ceiling/ better ROI potential

The other option is to find $3-4 Million per year to spend on basketball and go all in


Re: This Brownell protection by our fan base is the most


Posted: Mar 14, 2019 4:56 PM
    Reply

So winning championships is never an expectation? Then I guess we have the right coach.


i think people are scared that it could get worse

[3]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 11:23 AM
    Reply

Brownell has never really had a terrible season and if you look around the country many programs are having horrid seasons this year. Brownell does keep the program competitive at the very least. A 2-16 ACC season would be terrible for the program


Re: This Brownell protection by our fan base is the most

[3]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 12:13 PM
    Reply

You are a fuggin idiot.

Purnell left in the middle of the night and left the cupboard BARE with the exception of his seniors. We didn’t have any freshman that year and our veteran leaders were Devin booker and Milton Jennings. Hahahaha. People that say brownell was left with a good program is obviously stupid AF

That dumbarse stat about 2-15 in close games is equally dumb. Peasants like you look at stats like this and accept them at face value. The reason BC, wake forest, Pitt, Georgia tech and others don’t have worse records than that is because they are getting blown out every game!

Every team with the exception of maybe 2 of our losses were against eventual NCAA teams. Also our record could easily be 5-12 or even 6-11 if teams didn’t make less than 20% shots with regularity at the buzzer or had a couple calls go out way.

Just this season we lost to nc state on an extremely deep 3, Miami on a miracle bank, and unc and state on bs officiating. I guess you would be happy if we lost all of those games by 4.

It’s actually pretty good that we regularly play duke, unc, vt, Syracuse, louisville within one possession.


Re: This Brownell protection by our fan base is the most

[1]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 4:32 PM
    Reply

Folks forget that most of the 1 possession games are on the road. He is playing programs tight in their house.


We were split on Bowden too. Definitely not spit on Dabo***


Posted: Mar 14, 2019 4:30 PM
    Reply



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the last time we got restless we gotta shyatt on

[3]
Posted: Mar 14, 2019 4:49 PM
    Reply

by our admin. It doesn't take a whole heckuvalot to get back to the cellar in the aCC. Right now we're mid pack. Are we really thinking we are supposed to be at the top in this conference in basketball? Or are we a mid pack team that competes well and has a chance to break into that top 5 status in teh league every 3/4 years? It's all about getting lucky in recruiting.

I think if you go get another furman coach or winthrop coach or unc wilimington coach we're right where we are now in 10 years. If you are going to go pay for a proven guy like Vtech or UGA did then i'm with you. But if we're going to the same route we always go then we already have that and just need to get a good player to lead.


shyatt seemed like a great hire. Barnes dumped us and


Posted: Mar 14, 2019 6:47 PM
    Reply

shyatt was a good assistant here and he did good at wyoming

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