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All-TigerNet [12269]
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The real scoop on Batson:
Nov 26, 2012, 10:51 AM
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No internet fans have ever posted any specifics of the following:
1.) What our S and C program includes
2.) How strong, fast and generally prepared physically our guys are compared to others.
3.) Analysis of our methodology versus that of others.
The USC safety makes a big looking hit on a cutback and legions of keyboard all americans say he blasted #23 because he is some fitness machine. They then go on to say that being tough comes from some magic weight-lifting program that LSU and USC have that we do not.
Guys, the good Lord made Clowney and all the wishing and whey protein and power cleans on earth cannot make a lesser specimen into Clowney.
Dabo and the rest of the coaches are in this to win and make big money and have great careers. Do you really think they'd be willing to not have their players trained properly? Do you think they could recruit if this were the case? Look at some of the players we've put in the NFL recently and look at how they did in the combines. Branch comes to mind...I think he was a two star recruit, btw.
...just my two cents worth but I have a little bit of a background in this area and I find all these posts pathetic.
I wonder how much time coaches have to spend educating young recruits who read mindless drivel on message boards?
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Scout Team [157]
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Re: The real scoop on Batson:
Nov 26, 2012, 11:17 AM
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However, the fact of the matter is, the last four years the stronger, meaner team won the SC game. Dominated in the trenches all four times. Is it bad recruiting, or lack or development?
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Orange Blooded [3788]
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I know one thing
Nov 26, 2012, 11:27 AM
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When Kelly went to ND he fired the S&C Coordinator, a man named Reuben Mendoza who was an assistant S&C directer under Batson here at Clemson, and hired Paul Longo. They are now undefeated and ranked #1 in the country.
Where is Reuben Mendoza now? Wayne State.
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110%er [5802]
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Much of this info has been posted on TI, Shakin the southlan
Nov 26, 2012, 11:32 AM
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The differences have been made aware between Batson's style of lifting versus the olympic style weight lifting (focusing on power) which most of the SEC teams do.
USuC switched to olympic style in 2009. Not a coincidence.
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Orange Blooded [3788]
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Re: Much of this info has been posted on TI, Shakin the southlan
Nov 26, 2012, 11:33 AM
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Penn State hired SCar's S&C coach and had a good season despite probation and player defections, not a coincidence either.
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All-TigerNet [12269]
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Orange Blooded [3788]
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Enthusiast [145]
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Re: The real scoop on Batson:
Nov 26, 2012, 11:35 AM
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There are two videos from both our and SUC's S&C summer 2012 program. Watch the two of them, and tell me if you see any differences. One of the more computer guru types can link them, but I think they are on youtube.
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All-TigerNet [10889]
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These people will go to any length to shift blame away from
Nov 26, 2012, 11:38 AM
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Dabo, just like they did for Tommy Bowden.
I can't explain it really. They'll blast the players, the fans, the stadium, the conference, the coordinator, the TV announcers, the refs, the weather, the facilities, the academic standards, IPTAY, the state government, and hell, even the strength coach. They'll blame absolutely anyone they possibly can in order to shift blame away from Tommy 2.0.
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Rock Defender [53]
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More BS from you Uttles. NOBODY is trying to shift blame
Nov 26, 2012, 11:40 AM
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from Dabo.
It is 100% Dabo's responsibility to fix our most galring issue.
Nothing you said is true. Not one thing.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: More BS from you Uttles. NOBODY is trying to shift blame
Nov 26, 2012, 11:49 AM
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Well, to be fair, Dabo himself has said that our S&C program was championship level.
If he can't see the problem, we are certainly screwed in that regard.
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Rock Defender [53]
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I'm with you. Dabo's been wrong about some things, and he's
Nov 26, 2012, 12:06 PM
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admitted that. Can he admit this one?
Let me make it clear - I like Dabo and think he has what it takes. I want him to succeed at Clemson and stay here until he gets tired of coaching. Obviously he's achieved things not seen around here for decades, and it's a growing program. To deny Dabo's accomplishments is ignorant.
With all that said - I'm way past tired of losing due to another team's physical domination. And that's exactly what Saturday was.
Dabo has admitted he's made some mistakes. Now, surely he can see the strength issue has bit us in the butt again, right? It can no longer be brushed under the rug or kept intact due to family ties.
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Orange Blooded [3788]
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All-TigerNet [10889]
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Nobody has said S&C doesn't matter.
Nov 26, 2012, 11:53 AM
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It's just not the root cause of our problems. Even if it is one of the major causes (which you or I have zero evidence of that), the person in charge of the S&C person is the root cause.
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Rock Defender [53]
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BS again Tom...
Nov 26, 2012, 12:08 PM
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We lost to FSU and uSC because they were stronger and more physical on both sides of the LOS. You could see a physical strength and body-type difference, and it played out on the field.
You're still searching to be right about something. Anything at all.
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Rock Defender [53]
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The REAL scoop on our strength program...
Nov 26, 2012, 11:39 AM
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A lot of the teams we play are able to either push us around up front or hang with us on the LOS in spite of having less talent.
When those other teams have equal or better talent and it's combined with a superior strength program, then we lose. Period.
These are facts. Nothing "pathetic" about it. On the contrary, it's "pathetic" to not be able to SEE with one's overpowers us on the LOS. Not because of better players - because of sheer strength.
We lost 2 games this year. What was the most glaring issue in both? ..An inability to hang with the other team's strength on the LOS. The other teams either kept the ball away from us, they got us off the field, or both. Due to STRENGTH on the LOS.
I honestly don't understand how anyone could have watched that game Saturday night and deny that basically to a man uSC players were bigger and stronger, and for the most part they were pushing our guys around.
It just makes no sense to me how anyone can deny the BIGGEST PROBLEM in our football program. Most of the guys I speak with on a daily basis can plainly see it, yet there's a always a couple people on the internet who want to defend the most obvious and glaring issue in our football prgram. I just don't get it.
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All-TigerNet [12269]
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Re: The REAL scoop on our strength program...
Nov 26, 2012, 11:47 AM
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USC does have a bigger stronger DL than we do. Do you have the stats on these kids from when they were 18? I addressed that in my discussion of CLowney. You think you can make a Clowney in the weight room? You think you can take a 6'0" DT and make him 6'5" in the weight room?
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Orange Blooded [3788]
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Re: The REAL scoop on our strength program...
Nov 26, 2012, 11:49 AM
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No, but you can take Kelcy Quarles from 264 to 286 in 2 years
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All-TigerNet [12269]
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Re: The REAL scoop on our strength program...
Nov 26, 2012, 12:05 PM
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That proves it.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: The REAL scoop on our strength program...
Nov 26, 2012, 12:10 PM
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And Devin Taylor from 225 to 260+.
And Melvin Ingram from 225 to 265.
And Travian Robertson from 230 to 310.
And DJ Swearinger from 190 to 210.
Meanwhile, we have Rennie Moore who gains 5 pounds in 5 years. And Deshaun Williams and Grady Jarrett, who have LOST weight without adding any additional good weight.
We could go on and on.
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Orange Blooded [3788]
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Re: The REAL scoop on our strength program...
Nov 26, 2012, 12:11 PM
[ in reply to Re: The REAL scoop on our strength program... ] |
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Fine, here's a quote I took from an article on STS, which I will link below:
I decided to look at the depth charts of several teams and compare their current weights with what they weighed when they signed. I chose to analyze Clemson, along with Georgia, Georgia Tech, Florida State, South Carolina, Wake Forest, Alabama, and LSU. Figuring Alabama and LSU are the gold standards as programs, they represent the elite. South Carolina is the main rival while Florida State is the division rival. Georgia Tech represents to cross-division rival/thorn-in-the side, while Wake is the divisional over-achiever/thorn. Finally, I looked at Georgia because of their border-state/SEC position.
For the sake of clarity, among other reasons, I felt focusing on the defensive side of the ball made the most sense. Further, I limited my analysis to non-Juco players in either their Jr. or Sr. years. I compared the weights and categorized them into DL, LB, and DB groupings.
THE FINDINGS:
Of the 8 teams analyzed, Clemson finished LAST or tied for last in all three positional categories. Of the defensive line, they average weight gained was 17 lbs. The LBs averaged 14 lbs. gained, and the DBs averaged 9lbs. On the DL, only Wake was about the same, but they only have 1 player to analyze. Other than that, Clemson and LSU are tied for last at DB. Yet we all know the punch those guys bring and coverage skills are way better than their counterparts at Clemson.
Clemson
DL 17 lbs
LB 14 lbs
DB 9 lbs
Wake Forest
DL(only one JR/SR) 15 lbs.
LB 17 lbs
DB 20 lbs.
Florida State
DL 51 lbs.
LB 20 lbs.
DB 14 1bs.
Georgia Tech
DL 27 lbs.
LB 20 lbs.
DB 18 lbs.
Georgia
DL 38 lbs.
LB 20 lbs.
DB 23 lbs.
Alabama
DL 23 lbs
LB 25 lbs.
DB 11 lbs.
LSU
DL N/A (Note: no non-Juco Jr./Sr. start.)
LB 25 lbs.
DB 9 lbs.
South Carolina
DL 53 lbs.
LB 21 lbs.
DB 15 lbs.
South Carolina averaged 53 lbs gained on their DL compared to the 17 lbs. gained at Clemson. Devin Taylor went from 6-6 225 to 6-7 260. Melvin Ingram went from 6-2 224 to 6-2 276. Travian Robinson went from 6-4 230 to 6-4 303. At the same time, we see guys like Rennie Moore go from 6-5 260 to 6-4 270. Folks, Batson put 10 lbs on a DT in five years. Ricky Sapp gained roughly 25lbs in his time here.
Want to hear more? DaQuan Bowers came in listed as 6-4 267. His Jr. numbers were 6-4 275. Compare his gains to, say, Cliff Matthews at South Carolina. It ain't even close. Genetic freak. Two years. Eight pounds.
http://www.shakinthesouthland.com/2012/1/26/2707898/on-clemsons-s-c-program-and-our-problems-with-batson
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Rock Defender [53]
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Again, you're not seeing the forest through the trees...
Nov 26, 2012, 12:14 PM
[ in reply to Re: The REAL scoop on our strength program... ] |
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Basically every loss we've had the last 2 years has been due to the other team beating us with strength. When you can't beat a blocker or block the other guy, the other team typically wins.
It's not talent, technique, or want-to. It's strength. Period.
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Rock Defender [53]
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You're not seeing the forest through the trees...
Nov 26, 2012, 11:53 AM
[ in reply to Re: The REAL scoop on our strength program... ] |
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When we lose it's because the other team exerts their physicality to either keep the ball from us, take the ball from us, or both. That goes for both sides of the LOS.
How many years must it unfold on the field for you to see it?
For one, it's been that way for each of the last 4 years against uSC. It's far deeper than just "Clowney".
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All-TigerNet [12269]
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Re: You're not seeing the forest through the trees...
Nov 26, 2012, 12:02 PM
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They have a very good team and a load of great players right now. Why try and make this so complicated. Taylor is another one who is a freak. Dequan Bowers was a freak. Thompson was a freak. We have been short on Lb's but we've upgraded talent but young. It looks like we have talent upgrades coming on the DL. Our OL is better.
What you might not realize is that 6'5" 300 lb and strong does not make you a super talented lineman. There are tons of D2 guys who are huge and can lift a car but that does not make them elite D1 material. There are plenty of tall hoops players at small colleges but there is a reason for that.
We need to upgrade talent somewhat but we are not light years away from where we need to be. We are slighly away from our goals. Had we not had the two drive-saving interference calls, we still might have won in spite of the LOS probs in the game. After all, we are a big play team, not Bama.
Y'all are too worked up, IMO.
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Orange Blooded [3788]
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Re: You're not seeing the forest through the trees...
Nov 26, 2012, 12:07 PM
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It's not about brute strength, it's about functional strength.
We should be able to dominate games no matter what penalties get called, blaming the refs is a cop out as the truly great teams will overcome whatever adversity is thrown their way.
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All-TigerNet [12269]
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Re: You're not seeing the forest through the trees...
Nov 26, 2012, 12:17 PM
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I am not blaming them. I am pointing out that in spite of USC DL>CU DL, the game was close. Why again should we necessarily be able to dominate every other team?
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Rock Defender [53]
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I'm not making it complicated at all. In fact I'm making it
Nov 26, 2012, 12:10 PM
[ in reply to Re: You're not seeing the forest through the trees... ] |
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very, very simple.
Basically every loss we've had in the last 2 years has been due to the other team being able to use their strength to physically dominate us.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Rock Defender [53]
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IB, I think most people have the common sense to see it.
Nov 26, 2012, 11:57 AM
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I just hope Dabo doesn't stand at the podium again and tell us we're "insane" for stating what can be plainly seen (by most) on the field.
Dabo will lose his job if he doesn't soon fix the most glaring and obvious problem within our football program.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: IB, I think most people have the common sense to see it.
Nov 26, 2012, 12:01 PM
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Agreed. I took exception to his statements regarding the S&C critics last year, simply because he's basically insinuating that we're stupid and don't know what we're seeing with our own eyes.
I think he'll realize he needs to make a change and do so.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Yup.***
Nov 26, 2012, 12:11 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: The real scoop on Batson:
Nov 26, 2012, 11:46 AM
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Look at the videos from the preseason published by each team's respective AD.
Video production played a role, but it's clear that their S&C is more intense and competitive.
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All-TigerNet [12269]
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Re: The real scoop on Batson:
Nov 26, 2012, 12:20 PM
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You know this based on a couple of video clips?
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Orange Blooded [3788]
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Re: The real scoop on Batson:
Nov 26, 2012, 12:21 PM
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That combined with the results on the field.
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Rock Defender [53]
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I know it based on...
Nov 26, 2012, 12:30 PM
[ in reply to Re: The real scoop on Batson: ] |
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..what I see transpire on the field in all of our losses.
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All-TigerNet [12269]
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Re: I know it based on...
Nov 26, 2012, 12:33 PM
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post hoc logical falacy hits again.....
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Amateur [39]
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Re: The real scoop on Batson:
Nov 26, 2012, 12:27 PM
[ in reply to Re: The real scoop on Batson: ] |
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> ...it's clear that
> their S&C is more intense and competitive.
I think this may be where the ##### (and other elite S&C program excel). Static lifts play only a small role. Today it's all about "good in and good out" Putting a lot of the right food in (proper weight gain) and doing exercises specifically designed to the player and position.
The ##### use a ton of competitive drills, drills that emphasize functional strength and endurance training. Then they lift raw weight.
I can't speak to Clemson's program, but if that video is a "highlight" video...Clemson is in trouble.
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