»
Topic: The elephant in the room...
Replies: 30   Last Post: Dec 4, 2020, 9:43 AM by: deroberts
This topic has been archived - replies are not allowed.


[ Archives - Tiger Boards Archive ]
Start New Topic
Replies: 30  

The elephant in the room...


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 8:24 PM
 

Why are we struggling to put together a starting OL but we are 3 deep on the DL and our 3rd string would start at any other ACC school? There has been some serious mismanagement of the OL and OL recruiting. I’m interested in hearing some explanations? It doesn’t make sense.

link

Re: The elephant in the room...


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 8:27 PM
 

Are you saying elephant in room make big stink?

link

No those kids playing are giving everything they can


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 8:37 PM
 

But they have no help. Plus I don’t see any player development. It just really interesting

link

Re: No those kids playing are giving everything they can

[1]
Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 9:43 AM
 

User Logo
TD Tigers
CU Guru [1777]
TigerPulse: 57%
Posts: 1885
Joined: 5/28/02
No those kids playing are giving everything they can
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 8:37 PM
Reply

But they have no help. Plus I don’t see any player development. It just really interesting

YOU MEAN THE GROUP THAT IS AVERAGING 46 POINTS A GAME AND 500PLUS IN OFFENSE PER. THAT GROUP. GOOD LORD, WHERE DO THEY FIND YOU GOOBERS. SMFH

badge-donor-05yr.jpg link

Cause defense and a prolific passing game wins championships

[3]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 8:27 PM
 

HTH

2021 purple level memberringofhonor-classof1994.jpg link

If pigs are so smart, why do 66% of them use weak and inferior materials during construction?


Our coaches are playing the role of wounded animal at Oline

[4]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 8:30 PM
 

to lure our opponents into a false sense of confidence. It worked well against Pitt, I can't wait to use it again on the Hokies this weekend.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg link

Re: The elephant in the room...

emoji_events [15]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 8:39 PM
 

Missing on a bunch of OL guys in 2017, 2018, and 2019 hurt, especially 2019. Outside of Carman, Putnam, and Brockhorst we missed on every high profile OL we went after those 3 years. Losing Mays, Salyer, Webb, and Miller particularly hurt. Sam Pittman is largely responsible for why our OL recruiting was not in line with the rest of our recruiting those years. Also we only took 8 guys those three years combined. In general you want to average around 4-5 guys per class in the OL. It's a huge crap shoot as to whether OL pan out or not so if you limit your options to only 8 guys (7 when you consider DeHond medically retired) you're going to have a bad time.

The good new is two-fold really though:
1. Sam Pittman is no longer at UGA and his replacement (Matt Luke) is not nearly the same caliber of recruiter Pittman is.
2. We're doing better with numbers. We took more blue chip OL in 2020 (4) than we did in 2017-2019 combined (3). In addition to that we have 3 blue chip guys on board in 2021 and 2 already on board for 2022. I'd like to see one more OL (even if it's a depth guy) in 2021 and at least 2 more in 2022, but the early returns are that recruiting philosophy has at the very least started to pay off in returns even if it hasn't shifted.

So what does this mean? Well it means we should be much better positioned to reload at the OL position moving forward. We should be very good on the OL in 2022, depending on if Carman comes back we may be very good next year as well. Caldwell is actually a very good developer of college OL talent, particularly interior OL talent (if you don't believe me watch the coach replay of the 2016 national championship where they eviscerated Sean Pollard at RT; then realize that Caldwell turned him into a 2 time all-conference IOL and turned him into an UDFA). He just didn't have the numbers or roster construction to replace 4 starters in one year. He basically had 7 guys to replace 4 starters with and on the OL that just doesn't cut it and it shows given that at least half of the backups are true freshmen.

Message was edited by: tigerfan22334®


2021 student level member link

great stuff


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 8:50 PM
 

Thank you. OL seems the hardest position to evaluate. With that said you have to take someone if you miss on the blue chips. I kinda get the Pittman argument but not when it comes to recruiting depth. You have to have plan B. Not taking plan B is a big problem.

With our facilities and footprint it doesn’t make sense.Get transfers? something? At this point all you can do is learn from it. But the ball was definitely dropped.

link

Bingo, you are exactly correct in your assessments***


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 9:27 PM
 



2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

Re: The elephant in the room...


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 9:48 PM
 

Seems like a fair assessment. Thanks

link

Re: The elephant in the room...

[1]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 9:53 PM
 

How many 5 star OL are out there is my question. The reason OL is hard to evaluate is: are you taking a kid who matured early? He has plateaued and won't get much faster/bigger. Maybe stronger perhaps! But, was that kid just bigger earlier and dominated is what you have to ask!
Coaches have to see a lower ranked kid and go - > if I can put some weight and strength on that kid - > he will be great for our program!

Read this if you get a minute!

https://247sports.com/Article/NFL-Combine-offensive-line-evaluations-130065470/


link

If Caldwell is a great developer of talent

[3]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 9:59 PM
 

then why hasn’t a program that has won two national championships and been in the college football Final Four FIVE YEARS IN A ROW put several offensive linemen in the NFL over that same period of time?

Sorry, I’m just not buying it. Clearly OL recruiting and player development are not strengths of the program. If Trevor Lawrence and Travis Etienne had the Alabama OL no other players would even be mentioned for the Heisman at this point and Notre Dame would have one in the “L” column.

badge-donor-10yr.jpg link

Re: If Caldwell is a great developer of talent

[2]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 10:08 PM
 

I said he was a good developer of college OL talent. You can be an extremely effective college OL without having the skill set to be a good NFL OL (see Mitch Hyatt for reference, he just lacks the physical talent to be an NFL lineman but was an extremely good college lineman). Thinking of nothing but "putting players in the NFL" is a failure to recognize the massive differences in college and NFL ball. James Skalski isn't likely to be a good NFL player but he's a #### good college player. The NFL has certain physical bars you HAVE to meet in order to be a serviceable player that college just doesn't have. OL was one of the best position groups on the team the last 2 seasons (it was far better than DL last year) despite not having anywhere close to the same overall talent level as other position groups.

Also with regards to your Bama comment, they took 12 OL from 2017-2019, 11 of which were blue chip. In addition to that they took a 4* transfer as well. So that's 13 OL with 12 being blue chip. It's right in that 4-5/yr range I said teams should aim for. So I literally covered why they're as good as they are in my comment and I covered how we're addressing that with the 2020-2022 classes.

For what it's worth, Caldwell has shown to be a far better developer of talent than Bates or Hall have shown to be. The DL is not nearly as good as it should be given the amount of talent in that group.

Message was edited by: tigerfan22334®


2021 student level member link

It’s interesting how our other “effective” coaches...


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 11:10 PM
 

seem to be able to recruit and coach players that end up being good enough to play professionally... at just about every position on the team EXCEPT OL. As for Bama’s OL, you use the word “take” as if they can just ###### all these 5-star offensive linemen out of thin air, at will. The fact is that those blue chip linemen choose Bama over Clemson for a reason... and I think you know the reason.

Not sure why you seem adamant in making excuses for an area where we are OBVIOUSLY deficient in comparison to other positions on the team. Robby, is that you?

badge-donor-10yr.jpg link

Re: It’s interesting how our other “effective” coaches...

[1]
Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 9:17 AM
 

True. For example, Texas A&M has a history of putting OL in the NFL but haven’t been nearly as good as us the past 10 years.

Late 70s through the early 90s Clemson always had a very good if not dominant OL.

TB’s teams were so inconsistent because he had terrible OL play and the weak point of all of Dabo’s teams has been the OL.

ANY Danny Ford era OL would make us unstoppable! The only thing we have been missing is a really solid OL.

True. It is the hardest position to evaluate and recruit, but I think we swung for the fences several years in a row and missed and didn’t have very good fall back guys. And some years Dabo only brought in 2 or 3 guys. Ford signed 4 guys every year, sometimes 5.

I do have hope, however, because last year we did well and have some really good kids committed this year. So things are moving in the right direction, but I do have doubts about Caldwell.


Message was edited by: Lowcntry_Tiger®


2021 orange level member link

Re: If Caldwell is a great developer of talent

[1]
Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 1:03 AM
 

Last paragraph is spot on or we got an unusual number of misses-

link

Re: If Caldwell is a great developer of talent

[1]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 10:13 PM
 


then why hasn’t a program that has won two national championships and been in the college football Final Four FIVE YEARS IN A ROW put several offensive linemen in the NFL over that same period of time?

Sorry, I’m just not buying it. Clearly OL recruiting and player development are not strengths of the program. If Trevor Lawrence and Travis Etienne had the Alabama OL no other players would even be mentioned for the Heisman at this point and Notre Dame would have one in the “L” column.




I am not one to be critical of our program in any way, shape or form; but I would agree with the last part of your statement 100%.
I would also say it's a fair question about the OL to the NFL thing.

In saying that, not to change the subject, I think it says Clemson has found "system guys" that are good for what Clemson does on offense. Jackson Carmen will be an OL who gets drafted and sticks in the NFL soon I believe.

It's just such an inexact science with OL recruits. Many people hate him but Urban Meyer said something I thought was great regarding OL recruiting. He said, "I have to watch them play basketball to see if they have agility and bend that's more natural or rather instinctual"! His reasoning was awesome - he has recruited a good deal of players who were drafted to the NFL!

link

Re: If Caldwell is a great developer of talent

[1]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 10:17 PM
 

I thought this was good stuff! What do you think? Try and look past what you might think of Urban; is what he saying good? I think so, when you look at his teams they were always going to be physical at the point of attack! Tebow was serviceable as a passer - but they made there run to championships with a physical run game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZrcTxkbjkM

link

Re: If Caldwell is a great developer of talent


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 9:35 AM
 

It is our coaches job to make the player the best version of themselves and winning games/championship/plugging into our system that Dabo has developed. Sending players to the NFL is a byproduct. The same can be said of winning the Heisman.

link


Re: The elephant in the room...

emoji_events [6]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 8:51 PM
 

TD Tigers said:

Why are we struggling to put together a starting OL but we are 3 deep on the DL and our 3rd string would start at any other ACC school? There has been some serious mismanagement of the OL and OL recruiting. I’m interested in hearing some explanations? It doesn’t make sense.




I believe our OL could be playing better no doubt. I am a realist. But, go back and look at the starters star ratings please! Jackson Carmen was a unanimous 5 star. Jordan Mcfadden was a high 3 star .86 grade. In some years as low as .88 earns you a 4 star. Matt Bockhorst was a low 4 star out of Ohio, St. Xavier. Cade Stewart was a 3 star - but is a RS Sr. A long time in a college strength program. Will Putnam was a 4 star kid out of Florida.

You also have to 1st and foremost understand this: "you do not want Travis Etienne loose in your secondary because it's instant non-merciless death"! In other words, teams have said if you pass it there are lots of other things that can go wrong like the QB getting sacked or pressured, the WR might drop it, the QB might not be accurate, the DB might make a good play on the ball, etc.
All that to say - everybody is just stacking the box and daring Clemson to repeatedly show it can execute by passing the football!
Now, yes some teams see loaded boxes and are able to still run. That is not how our offense works though. Our offense goes to where the offense has the advantage! See loaded box pass ball. Non-loaded box run ball. Do the play where you can out flank the defense in other words.

All that and I will say: "our OL does need someone in that group to be a voice of challenge and a voice of passion who challenges the others"! I think we have a bunch of "nice guys" and nobody who is nasty-get-after you! But, like champs! They keep grinding and getting better and better! They pass block above average and the numbers bear that out.

link

Re: The elephant in the room...


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 8:57 AM
 

+110 On ETN being an "instant non-merciless death" - one of my favorite lines.

link

Re: The elephant in the room...


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 10:15 PM
 

Just looking at the roster, I see one senior, one grad, two juniors, two sophs, and a ton of freshmen, and red shirt freshmen OLmen, and a lot of underclassmen that haven't gotten a lot of playing time. I know we need them to perform now, but it should be interesting to see what happens when all these freshmen are seniors.

military_donation.jpg link

Why do you think our OL is hurting us?

[3]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 11:03 PM
 

We have a dynamic offense that scores a lot of points. We run and pass.

How many losses over the last few years were due to our offense not scoring?

2015: lost to Alabama 45-40 in national championship game, our only loss of the season.
2016: lost 43-42 to Pitt during regular season, and won National championship.
2017: lost 27-24 to Syracuse in regular season, and 24-6 to Alabama in playoff semifinal.
2018: undefeated, won national championship.
2019: lost 42-25 to LSU in national championship game, our only loss of the season.
2020: lost 47-40 to Notre Dame

The only losses I pin on our offense were the two in 2017. I mostly blame those on having a QB who wasn’t a great passer.

We scored plenty of points in those other losses. Those were games where our defense really let us down.

There have also been some huge wins we’ve had where the defense didn’t play well, but our offense bailed us out by scoring a lot of points to win the game.

This year, we aren’t running the ball consistently well with ETN, but that hasn’t cost us any games. And it hasn’t always been because our OL is bad, but also because of how other teams have played us.

Our strength and focus is passing, as it should be with a QB like Trevor and weapons we have in the passing game. I know people want to have an OL that blows everyone off the ball and runs it down people’s throats, but I would much rather have an offense that protects our QB and allows him to stay healthy and get the ball to playmakers all over the field. Our offensive line does that.

2021 white level member link

Cobbox on Brad Brownell: “His only problem is he has to deal with turd fans questioning every move he makes.”


Re: Why do you think our OL is hurting us?


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 9:27 AM
 

We lost to Pittsburgh in 2016 because we couldn’t get 1 yard on the ground!

I agree with a lot of what you post, but you are dead wrong with this. We have not had a dominant OL under Dabo. We struggle at times to move the ball on the ground. Dominant teams, great teams, championship teams should be able to consistently convert 3rd or 4th and short against all but other dominant teams. But we struggle to do that at times against bad & mediocre teams.

2021 orange level member link

Overstating the quality of D-line depth...


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 12:47 AM
 

on the roster a bit; but DL easier to project-primary attributes size, agility motor, physicality. OL-cerebral aspect required is difficult to quantify & to gauge a hs player's capacity even more so-

link

Re: The elephant in the room...


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 7:20 AM
 

Why hear just somebody 's else opinion or explanation!
Go ask the coaching staff.
Oh, and don't trip over the donkey that is also in the room.

link

Re: The elephant in the room...


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 8:05 AM
 

We don't have a history of putting a lot of OL talent into the NFL.

Once you get a few that are reasonably successful, then recruitin' can point to those examples.

If I was a top OL guy, Clemson would be a consideration but not the #1 destination.

2021 purple level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg link

Re: The elephant in the room...


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 8:54 AM
 

look, we all have our own opinions I have heard from numerous people that coach Caldwell is a good man and does a great job of taking care of the boys. I think he has been a very good coach for us over the years and recruiter. That said I just feel as if we are not maximizing our potential there. The thing is that any lineman will tell you is that run blocking is something that comes a lot easier. Pass-blocking is a lot more difficult. we passed block pretty well; Pitt got to TL more than I would prefer but they do have a pretty decent D line, we so I'm fine with that because at the end of the day the other team has dudes on scholarship too. Still, it comes back to run blocking. This current lineup has not shown the ability to get that tough yardage when the other team sells out to stop the run. I don't care how good our passing game is the time May Come when the quarterback is off or even injured. Or to be frank like the playoffs last year when wide receivers seem incapable of catching a ball. Flame away but if you watch the tape you'll see it's true. When that happens it sure is awful nice to be able to line up and Pound The Rock for 4-5 yards consistently. Each of these young men are all Clemson men and I respect them all for that. I think many of us just would like to see a bit more nastiness and Road grading. Go Tigers!

military_donation.jpg link

Re: The elephant in the room...

[2]
Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 8:05 AM
 

I would make two points.

1. Our Offense is great, but it is not the type of road-grading offense that attracts great linemen - and sends them on the the NFL.

2. Our D-line is great because of our depth and ability to rotate people in and out. That does not work for O-line. Chemistry and communication require lots of snaps together. Perhaps our regular pattern of recruiting doesn't quite work on O-Line.

link

Over the course of his time here, Dabo has methodically

[2]
Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 9:02 AM
 

"fixed" every aspect of recruiting where we were subpar. He started with D Line, moved to DBs, and now on to Linebackers and O Line. Under him, our skill position recruiting has pretty much always been awesome. I believe he is putting MUCH more focus on O Line now. Since it takes awhile to train good college Offensive linemen, the improvement may not be overnight, but it is coming. In Dabo I Trust.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg link

Re: The elephant in the room...


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 9:18 AM
 

Did the OP mean the coot in the room? Maybe his phone autocorrected by changing the word coot to elephant?

link

Replies: 30  

TIGER TICKETS

FB GAME: Season Tickets
FOR SALE: 4 Tickets on the Clemson side in SEC UD ROW T, seats 13 ,15,17,19 in the shade asking 1400 each, cal...

Buy or Sell CU Tickets and More in Tiger Tickets!

[ Archives - Tiger Boards Archive ]
Start New Topic
4385 people have read this post