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All-In [44050]
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Clemson should start private professional schools.
Jul 17, 2020, 1:47 PM
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Clemson's issue seems to be declining state funding, as evidenced by the percentage of Clemson's overall revenue from the state of SC being very very small. The result of this is that in-state Clemson tuition is way higher than students in neighboring states pay for in-state tuition in their own states.
Part of me would love for Clemson to just become private, but this is basically impossible due to the land, buildings, and other assets Clemson would have to purchase from the state.
So my idea is this: Clemson should start professional schools such as medicine, dentistry, law, etc. These could be purely private, meaning that they are not affiliated with the state in any way. They could be located on land adjacent to Clemson-owned land in Clemson, or be located in Greenville.
Clemson could charge private tuition accordingly. This would not only significantly increase Clemson's revenue, but also attract more notoriety as a university. Finally, it would also increase the number of high-earning Clemson graduates, and thus the amount of alumni giving.
I'm sure there would be a lot of legal stuff required to get this done, but I bet it's possible. And it would be a huge win for Clemson University.
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Oculus Spirit [82066]
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Re: Clemson should start private professional schools.
Jul 17, 2020, 1:51 PM
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All-In [44050]
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I'm glad to see that you are
Jul 17, 2020, 1:52 PM
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still making valuable contributions to TigerNet.
Thank you for your service.
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Oculus Spirit [82066]
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Re: I'm glad to see that you are
Jul 17, 2020, 1:55 PM
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Clemson should start private professional schools.
Jul 17, 2020, 2:03 PM
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While there are private land-grant schools (Cornell and MIT), that is a tough sell even for Clemson. It would take a Bozo/Gates level of donation to get to that scale.
The other side is that while I am a product of the James Barker grad school push, Clemson is a far ways away from being able to get to that level of success as a private gradschool launch. To obtain me, they basically waived the out-of-state tuition and tuition in general (cost me about $1,000 a semester with a work requirement - so my loads during those years, especially masters, not PhD were living expenses). To get grad students, especially good one, you really have to provide it nearly for free.
Law, I feel nothing to expand there. Law schools really need to be in the heart of legislature county, etc. However, medicine and veterinary would be good options particular if you initially focus on rural health. The UNC Pardee system isn't bad on that but then again, NC has multiple Med schools. Dentisty isn't bad but rather it just really needs to further research engineering and other tech-related activities. Bio/medical engineering etc. I think VaTech is a good example here.
Finally, being a private school would be a fairly big slap in the more historic mission of the college. Clemson takes the yeoman hustle over wallet IMO and I would like to keep it that way. That is why I would lean towards a major endowment boost to make it happen.
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All-In [44050]
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Thanks for your thoughts.
Jul 17, 2020, 2:23 PM
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I don't see private professional schools being a slap in the face to the historic mission of the college at all. I'm not suggesting that Clemson turn its back on educating South Carolinians. The public aspect of Clemson University involving undergraduate and graduate programs would remain intact. The professional schools would simply be a private subset of the university. I view this as enhancing Clemson's mission, rather than detracting from it, as any professional schools created would certainly include some South Carolinians as students. Plus, research shows that students who graduate from professional programs often remain in the area of their training to live and work. This would also help address jobs, income level, and various disparities in South Carolina.
Keep in mind that when Clemson was founded, professional-level education was not nearly as formalized as it is now. It was in the years since then that many professional-level training programs were standardized, leaving behind the apprenticeship model that existed previously in many areas.
The programs I'm referring to, such as medicine, law, etc., don't typically include many scholarships or stipends. Sure, there are some, but most students expect to pay the full tuition to attend such programs. They are very different from Ph.D.-level doctoral programs.
I don't see any drawback to having medicine, dentistry, veterinary, or law under the Clemson umbrella. Sure, the health-related programs could be branded as rural, but they could just as easily be more urban if they were based in Greenville. Or ideally, they could be a hybrid of both settings for a wider breadth of exposure/training. There are plenty of law schools not located in or near state capitals where a lot of the legislative activities take place.
I agree that such a move would take an influx of cash. However, sponsorships from large corporations and/or private donors could be solicited. Lots of private medical and law schools have been started over the past 20 years, and all are still going strong today. Although such schools cost a lot of money up front, they also command a lot in terms of tuition. Given the high demand for such schools, and many more applicants for these schools than there are seats, Clemson would always fill those slots. In other words, the tuition dollars would be income that could be counted on each year.
Given the high value of Clemson's brand, and the dwindling support from the state of SC for Clemson's current programs, now is the time to strongly consider starting new private professional programs.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Thanks for your thoughts.
Jul 17, 2020, 3:26 PM
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I agree with you there, my focus on the discount/resources was focused on the launch. PhD/JD/DVM/MD are different funding option, but to get going, you need to really have fire-sale tuition for years. Even with established masters programs (Arch, Planning, CSM, & LA) with an excellent reputation, architecture, etc the EDP/PDBE struggle for a while - mostly because GaTech and UNC were established in those areas. To get good students, you had to lure the middle-upper tier away along with targeting the new faculty with a utopian vision. The downside is that (as as I mentioned elsewhere of Barker over-promising - I felt that directly and especially finding stable committee members is that you also have to back it up. Considering the cost of the professional program and accrediation demands, giving it away for free for 10 year is a LOT without a big backer.
I am very weary of corporate "sponsorship" with a lot of programs. While there is a lot of "good" sometimes it is a bit quid-pro-quo and a few of the professional field alread have a problem with corporate influx.
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Orange Blooded [2951]
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Re: Clemson should start private professional schools.
Jul 17, 2020, 2:07 PM
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A few years ago President Jim Barker hosted an event on the west coast. I was shocked when he said funding from the state of SC provided around 12% of Clemson's budget. Someone even asked "why bother for only 12%, make it private and not be beholden to state requirements?" His answer was exactly what you said - splitting the assets (mostly real estate) across the state would be next to impossible.
I think you have some good ideas. Start-up costs may be prohibitive but no idea worth it's salt had an easy road to success. The state of South Carolina - like all states - is going to be cash strapped for years. 12% may become even smaller. Before all the covid stuff came along, Clemson was getting ready to start on a $2 billion fundraising campaign. Maybe ideas like yours should be looked at real hard to include in fundraising efforts as a way of generating income in the future.
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All-TigerNet [12592]
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Disagree 100%
Jul 17, 2020, 2:14 PM
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I don't think we need a 5th medical school in a state our size. I finished MUSC almost 40 years ago. At that time there was MUSC and the newly created med school in Columbia. Now there is a private medical school in Spartanburg and another medical school in Greenville. Trying to find clinical rotations in the Upstate would be problematic. MUSC is the only dental school in the state and is putting out around 70 dentists a year. There does not appear to be a shortage of dentists except in rural areas which is always an issue when it comes to health care in general. As for lawyers, we now have the USC school and one in Charleston. Many of these new lawyers are making very low salaries and some even work for free to burnish their credentials to aid them in getting an offer later. Honestly, is there a shortage of lawyers. The clergy seems to be pretty well staffed too. Whatever money Clemson gets from the state is better than nothing. Tuition while high would be even more if Clemson were to somehow go private.
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CU Medallion [67851]
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Re: Disagree 100%- Make a vet school in SC
Jul 17, 2020, 2:26 PM
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not having one makes it far tougher to get to be a vet. They have to have far higher grades as undergrads to get in Vet school due to limitied opportunities at UGa and Aub. As a result you can become an MD much easier than a vet in SC. What the heck sense does that make?
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Disagree 100%- Make a vet school in SC
Jul 17, 2020, 2:35 PM
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When VaTech (and Md) started a Vet Program, it was a big deal as the two choices for Virginians were Georgia or Ped State (via a seat agreement).
Uncle and father-in-law have the DVM from Jawja and back when they did it, there were only like 8-12 spots for "public". Hyper competitive.
Of course, I remind my father-in-law that while he is a "doctor", being from jawja only permitd him to operate on animals.
Ironically, my wife's maternal side has that Auburn vet connection....
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All-TigerNet [12592]
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Re: Disagree 100%- Make a vet school in SC
Jul 17, 2020, 2:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: Disagree 100%- Make a vet school in SC ] |
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I agree with looking into a Vet School. It would dovetail with the school's history and I have to believe that there might be a need. There are only so many slots at UGA, NCSU, Auburn, etc to accommodate South Carolineans. Physicians don't tend to practice where they went to Medical School, but more likely near where they did their residency training. The limiting factor in putting out doctors is not medical school slots, but residency positions. Having a medical school in Clemson or even in Greenville would not alter that fact. I seriously doubt you would find SC government officials, doctors, or hospital administrators even vaguely interested in having another medical school in SC for the foreseeable future. Again, I don't think there is a need for more attorneys in SC. There is no problem finding one.
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All-In [44050]
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A private medical school in Clemson doesn't really care
Jul 17, 2020, 2:39 PM
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what government officials in SC think about it, because it wouldn't be a public school.
I would be shocked if Bon Secours in Greenville wasn't thrilled at the idea of having medical students rotate through its hospitals. Status as a "teaching hospital" seems to be important to hospitals.
I don't know anything about the need for lawyers, but last time I checked, admission to law school is still competitive and many students who want to go to law school aren't able to gain admission.
Regardless, if Clemson does professional school better than other professional schools, we would be stealing potential students from them - not waiting on the leftovers.
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All-TigerNet [12592]
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Re: A private medical school in Clemson doesn't really care
Jul 17, 2020, 2:53 PM
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Students already rotate through PRISMA/Greenville and Bon Secours and have done so for years.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Disagree 100%
Jul 17, 2020, 2:28 PM
[ in reply to Disagree 100% ] |
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So how does Virginia and North Carolina handle all these medical schools? The population is higher but so is the number of private schools with a lot more clout.
Virginia has three "full-scale" medical schools, including MCV, EVMC and UVA. Then you have VaTech's medical research facilties (which is the example I would like to see Clemson take). Plus cut it how you will, but DC is the NoVa expansion with lot of medical colleges just across the river.
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All-In [44050]
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Don't forget two medical schools in Blacksburg.
Jul 17, 2020, 2:34 PM
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Virginia Tech has an MD school as well as a DO school, both of which have opened in the last 20 years. They somehow figured out how to provide rural and urban training sites for students in the Roanoke-Blacksburg area, which is much smaller than the Greenville metro area.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Don't forget two medical schools in Blacksburg.
Jul 17, 2020, 2:39 PM
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Yes. SWVa is hyper-education focused. Not just VaTech but that is the big fish past Lexington.
Actually, VaTech even has a campus (not medical) in the DC area and they partnered with GMU (where I did my postdoc work) for a few things. 
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Don't forget two medical schools in Blacksburg.
Jul 17, 2020, 2:40 PM
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ha, acidentilly pressed cvrl v from another post HA
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CU Medallion [67851]
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Re: Don't forget two medical schools in Blacksburg.
Jul 17, 2020, 3:42 PM
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well now I'm interested in the pic. more info please
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CU Medallion [57152]
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Germans***
Jul 17, 2020, 6:12 PM
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Scout Team [193]
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Re: Don't forget two medical schools in Blacksburg.
Jul 17, 2020, 4:08 PM
[ in reply to Re: Don't forget two medical schools in Blacksburg. ] |
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Nice pic of a ME 262. Likely appropriate at the end of WWII.
Back on topic- what is being left out of the conversation here is the research/grant money the “best” medical schools receive. Far outstrips tuition or state funding for this type of institution. NIH is the major source of this income and Clemson is not on their radar but it is basically how the profs are paid beyond their stipend
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All-In [44050]
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Other than the osteopathic school in Spartanburg
Jul 17, 2020, 2:32 PM
[ in reply to Disagree 100% ] |
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all of the medical schools in SC are public (MUSC, SC-Columbia, and SC-Greenville). MUSC is obviously the most competitive of these in terms of admission, with the SC schools behind there, and the DO school last. Despite this, there are still students who want to go to medical school (both from SC and outside of SC) that can't get in.
Clemson, as a private medical school, would not only compete for students from SC but from throughout the country. It wouldn't be forced to accept most of its students from SC. That would go a long way toward increasing the caliber of applicants, as well as the quality of doctors produced.
You make a great point about the training sites. I don't know if the Prisma hospital in Greenville is oversaturated with medical students or not, but I do know that's a big hospital and could possibly accommodate Clemson medical students as well. There are also other sites, such as Bon Secours hospitals in Greenville as well as AnMed in Anderson. More rural sites could also be used I'm sure.
South Carolina has no veterinary school. I'm sure plenty of SC students want to be vets, but are forced to go out of state. This seems to be a huge opportunity for a school in SC to fill that need.
Again, I'm not suggesting that Clemson convert to an entirely private school. Clemson would still get public money from the state of SC for its current offerings. Any professional programs created would be private, and operated as for-profit colleges under the Clemson umbrella.
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All-TigerNet [12592]
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Re: Other than the osteopathic school in Spartanburg
Jul 17, 2020, 2:49 PM
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It's a good discussion. I just disagree, but appreciate your viewpoints. My numbers may be off a bit, but I believe SC has roughly 5 million people and 4 medical schools.NC has roughly 10.5 million people and 6 medical schools.VA has about 8.5 million people and 6 medical schools.GA has roughly 10.5 million people and 6 medical schools. I just don't think the numbers are there to support a 5th school at this time. I know for a fact that the kids at the DO school in Spartanburg, who do pay a ridiculous amount of tuition are sent all over creation in the state to try to find them clinical rotations. Your discussion is thought provoking though.
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All-In [44050]
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Thanks for your thoughts as well.
Jul 17, 2020, 3:09 PM
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I agree, good discussion.
Your data on the size of states and the number of medical schools is interesting. My question is this: what do those numbers tell us?
In SC, with the exception of the new osteopathic school in Spartanburg, all of the medical schools are currently public. So most of the medical students in SC are from South Carolina. In NC and Georgia, it seems to be a mix of public and private. The private schools probably have most of their students from out of state.
In SC, I would think that being the only private MD school in the state would be to Clemson's advantage in terms of student recruitment. Clemson could compete for the best and brightest, regardless of where they are from, without having the constraints that the other MD schools in the state have (since they are public).
Finally, thanks for the info about Bon Secours also having medical students. It does seem that finding training sites would be the biggest hurdle for a Clemson medical school. So perhaps a medical school isn't as good of a choice as veterinary, dental, or law would be.
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Oculus Spirit [76995]
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Re: Clemson should start private professional schools.
Jul 17, 2020, 2:35 PM
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I’m curious if this has been discussed previously, actually. I likes it.
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All-In [44050]
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There was a rumor when USuC's medical school opened
Jul 17, 2020, 2:42 PM
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a full four-year campus in Greenville, that President Barker was given the option of that medical school being affiliated with Clemson instead but that he said no. I find this rumor to be false, since it wouldn't have been Barker's or Clemson's decision. Plus, the decision to start that medical school was not about Greenville's hospital floating the idea to various schools, but the University of South Carolina's decision to expand operations that already existed there (previously, USuC's medical students could do their third and fourth year of medical school in Greenville or Columbia).
Otherwise, I don't know that professional school of any type has ever been discussed at Clemson. I don't think it's been on anyone's radar, which is disappointing.
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Orange Blooded [2951]
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Re: There was a rumor when USuC's medical school opened
Jul 17, 2020, 2:58 PM
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Perhaps there are other options without starting from ground zero. The programs that offer terminal master's degrees (typically do not lead to doctoral study) such as nursing, architecture, MBA could become part of Clemson Professional University or similar. Elminate the cheap tuition since these degrees are typically winners for graduates in terms of salary. UC Berkeley is structured such that MBA, law, and a few other programs are more "expensive" than other graduate programs.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: There was a rumor when USuC's medical school opened
Jul 17, 2020, 3:03 PM
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Architecture *does* have a PhD (with a partnered field)....
However, PhD are research degree and the masters is a practitioner degree. That was a lot of tension within the program because asking architect to bring "data" as to why their "designs" were "good" was always a bit a a civil war in the program.
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110%er [6825]
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110%er [6825]
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Re: There was a rumor when USuC's medical school opened
Jul 17, 2020, 3:01 PM
[ in reply to There was a rumor when USuC's medical school opened ] |
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From my understanding, yes, there was a lot of talk/rumor during my time -particularly Vet/Dental. The general take was that Columbia was standing in the way and willing to block any competition. Really, the only reason we even had public policy was Strom and that was way-back of sorts for me. Plus, Clemson was just trying to expand the grad program & partnerships like ICAR, Greenville MBA, and the RCID/EDP programs and when the recession hit in 2008, everything was on hold and unofficially nixed.
Barker was not the type to say no to anything. If anything, he would overreach and over-promise and then had to walk back a little. Still, I would stand with him on any proposal. (My grad-research office was linked with his office on a few items)
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CU Medallion [67851]
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Re: There was a rumor when USuC's medical school opened
Jul 17, 2020, 3:46 PM
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Yeah like giving away the farm to ND
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CU Medallion [51550]
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Is there a demand for such a thing?***
Jul 17, 2020, 4:15 PM
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All-In [44050]
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Yes, the number of applications to professional schools
Jul 17, 2020, 4:20 PM
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such as medicine, dentistry, veterinary, and law programs far exceed the number of available seats.
Shortages in healthcare fields already exist, and this is expected to increase as the population grows and ages.
I don't know about attorneys, and whether there are shortages of lawyers. My belief is that we already have way too many lawyers (heh heh - insert favorite lawyer joke here).
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Legend [16507]
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Veterinary slots are slim indeed. Seems like a good fit for
Jul 17, 2020, 4:23 PM
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Clemson.
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All-In [27366]
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Explain how a public university "starts" private schools.
Jul 17, 2020, 8:57 PM
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And start with the funding.
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All-In [44050]
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I don’t know, but I’m sure there are ways to do it.
Jul 18, 2020, 10:47 AM
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There have been private medical and law schools that have opened within the last 20 years, many of which weren’t part of an existing university. Looking to see how they did it would provide clues. If a school can be started in that fashion, then I would think that Clemson, with its resources and clout, could certainly start its own private professional program.
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Orange Blooded [2853]
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Re: I don’t know, but I’m sure there are ways to do it.
Jul 18, 2020, 11:06 AM
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It seems like a PA school and a Vet school would build nicely off the nursing and agriculture history. I think a PA school would be more in-line with the future trend for a graduate level medical degree.
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Legend [15749]
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“Clemson’s issue”? What issue?***
Jul 19, 2020, 12:40 AM
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