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All-In [38514]
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PerryNobleNet:
Jan 26, 2015, 1:33 PM
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I think Perry Noble is nutty and egocentric, but what I think about him doesn't matter as I don't attend and would never step through the door. I do read some of the stuff that comes from there and none of it has ever done anything but deepen my opinion.
But...
The people I know who do attend seem to feel strongly that it's a positive in their lives. I think that's great for them. I'm not them and am not living their life. Religion and the church you attend should be a positive in your life and be of benefit to you. So I don't care what Perry's preaching, it's up to those that are listening to make their own judgement.
Of course...
Newspring and every other church/religion is open to criticism, and Perry probably puts himself out there to receive more than others. But I don't think he's twisting anyone's arm to be there.
However...
My real concern is that he may not have the training (both in theology and counseling) required for his position at such a large church. Most Pastors I've know have completed quite a bit of schooling to prepare themselves. Dispensing advice without the proper training could be detrimental to his congregants.
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All-In [26968]
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You summed up the modern "church" age in one sentence:
Jan 26, 2015, 1:36 PM
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"Religion and the church you attend should be a positive in your life and be of benefit to you."
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All-In [38514]
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You don't agree?
Jan 26, 2015, 1:43 PM
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You gonna attend a church that is not positive and beneficial to you?
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All-In [26968]
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I must choose a church in which I can benefit Christ
Jan 26, 2015, 1:59 PM
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and His Kingdom. What benefits me has nothing to do with it. Sometimes...rather, most of the time, properly serving Him means me sacrificing some personal benefit.
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All-In [38514]
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Are the two exclusive?
Jan 26, 2015, 3:59 PM
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I'd assume that for many it's the same thing.
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Legend [17915]
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If you get past the surface with most folks, they are.
Jan 26, 2015, 8:58 PM
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I'm not trying to be argumentative about it - but the truth is what it is. Instant gratification is what most are seeking in church today. They enjoy the good feelings until its time to "pony up." that is, do more than eat at the church dinner and drop two dollars in the plate to cover the four meals, plus the take home bags. Ask one to be a helper in Sunday School, or a Sunday School teacher, be a part of a "viable" committee for the church...actually go prayer walking through the community, or baby sit children for those who will...then you'll find out who is there for Christ or for themselves.
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All-In [38514]
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So the ones who are there for Christ...
Jan 27, 2015, 8:26 AM
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aren't gaining personal benefit? Maybe they're gaining the most?
Selfishness rarely results in lasting positives.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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Unless you can keep all the money
Jan 27, 2015, 9:40 AM
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and then it does.
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Legend [17915]
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Depends on what they are searching for, I suppose.
Jan 27, 2015, 2:04 PM
[ in reply to So the ones who are there for Christ... ] |
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But, I would argue that the ones there for Christ have already received all that they want and have now moved into a state of wanting to share with others what they have received.
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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All-In [26968]
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To put it simply, it's not "what can the church do for me"
Jan 26, 2015, 1:50 PM
[ in reply to You summed up the modern "church" age in one sentence: ] |
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It should be "what can I do for the Church"?
The purpose of the Church is Christ's glory, at my expense. He is exalted, I am abased. It exists to serve God and serve others.
To choose a church based on benefit to me would be selfish and backwards. Instead, I should choose the church that maximizes my opportunities to serve Him, in the capacity to which He has called me.
For example: I can't go to this church...it doesn't have a young couples class, and I need that. How about choosing a church, in which there is opportunity for you to kick-start a young couples' class?
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CU Guru [1723]
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Preach on brother***
Jan 26, 2015, 3:27 PM
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All-In [45763]
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All-In [31898]
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While I agree completely with your sentiment...
Jan 26, 2015, 10:35 PM
[ in reply to To put it simply, it's not "what can the church do for me" ] |
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I think a point can be made that a church teaching the true gospel serves it's members in the deeper sense that a following of the teaching of Christ and believing he is the savior and son of God leads to everlasting life in heaven.
A church promoting "false" teachings could do a disservice to the members if it leads them down a path that doesn't please Christ and therefore does not lead to everlasting life.
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Legend [17915]
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Young couples class - kick start one? hah!
Jan 27, 2015, 7:54 AM
[ in reply to To put it simply, it's not "what can the church do for me" ] |
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They can't stay long enough to know something like that is needed because the music selection will already have them shut down.
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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Associate AD [828]
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Sadly many churhch-goers are Consumers
Jan 27, 2015, 9:02 AM
[ in reply to To put it simply, it's not "what can the church do for me" ] |
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They window shop until they find a church with the best programs for their kids. Then they attend church to consume, and rarely contribute back to the church.
Then there is the group that treats a church as a social club and pay their "dues" every month by writing a small check. They have little interest in personal growth but instead want to socialize.
As far as NewSpring, I see a big Entertainment factor. They put on a good show.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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I think he's somewhat of a false prophet for a lot of people
Jan 26, 2015, 2:06 PM
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They're more wrapped up in him than they are god. There's one type of person in particular who seems to get drawn into Newspring, and I'm sure you know who they are. He's got him a big ole flock of sheep. I dread the day the one in Clemson opens, may as well plan on staying home Sunday's.
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All-In [38514]
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Agree, but don't care.
Jan 26, 2015, 4:01 PM
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But that's there choice. I'm not one to feel like I have to tell someone what they should believe as long as they're not hurting anyone else.
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Legend [17915]
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2 Timothy 3:16, 17 applies to the Christian life somewhere,
Jan 26, 2015, 9:05 PM
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somehow, someway.
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All-In [38514]
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I guess, if one is Christian.
Jan 27, 2015, 12:35 PM
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I am not, but I support and encourage those that are to get the most out of it. Or any other religion.
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Legend [17915]
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Exactly
Jan 27, 2015, 2:20 PM
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I try to teach people that concept regularly in this way - that the Bible is given for all to know God, teaching two things: 1) How to find salvation through Jesus Christ and, 2) how to live in honor of God once you have found salvation in Jesus Christ.
I know people will dispute the "simplicity" of that statement, and with some merit, possibly. But the statment is made based on these simple facts: 1) The Bible primarily points to Jesus Christ (the promised Messiah) and 2) What He (Jesus) reveals about the requirement needed for a relationship with God once He came.
Anyhooo, the Bible will not govern the life of one who has not surrendered to its author.
BTW, the 10 Commandments were never a stairway to heaven either.
Have a good day!
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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All-In [28802]
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Yes, that's one problem across Protestantism
Jan 26, 2015, 2:08 PM
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Protestantism stresses the authenticity of a personal relationship with God. Sometimes I think Protestants, especially Evangelical Protestants, oppose authenticity to tradition, such that they think the institutions of the church aren't important and that they actually are obstructions to a relationship with God. Hence, all the clamor over "hating religion but loving Jesus," as if religion has to be opposed to authenticity. Some of the folks who started non- denominational churches did so for just this reason, since they felt like more established churches and ways of doing things were leading to stagnation.
By the same way of thinking, all a person needs to be a leader in a church is a call from God, not some hoity- toity seminary training that's not doing anything to directly advance God's kingdom. After all, all believers are like priests, right? And authority comes from scripture, not from the Church or tradition.
This way of thinking isn't entirely wrong. A Spirit-filled person who spends a lot of time with scripture and in prayer, who is surrounded by other Spirit-filled people who are spending time with scripture and in prayer in the church, can be a great leader without a ton of education. The Bible and Christian history is a witness to that. But The Bible and Christian history is also a witness to the need for education people to education others, to correct errors, and to make complicated issues clearer.
At any rate, I'm unclear about what training might be necessary to pastor a large church, especially when that church has grown under the leadership of the same pastor. I think Noble's preaching is orthodox Evangelical Christianity, and that he does a very good job of making Biblical truths clear. I don't think there's always a ton of theological depth, but sometimes there is. He's clearly not someone who's going to be writing deep theological books.
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Hall of Famer [21577]
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Re: Yes, that's one problem across Protestantism
Jan 26, 2015, 7:37 PM
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When you dumb it down to the dumb....of course it will grow.
His lack of knowledge in Hebrew translation shines through as does his historical knowledge.
I agree fully with everything Tdrake said.
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Legend [18024]
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What is Joel Osteen's background? Education?
Jan 26, 2015, 2:37 PM
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I feel like (or have heard) that Noble is trying to follow in Osteen's path. Hard to argue with the success, but I do wonder how the ultra-religious view Osteen and Noble.
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All-In [28802]
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I don't really see Osteen as comparable to Noble
Jan 26, 2015, 2:52 PM
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And I doubt Noble would want to be associated with Osteen
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Legend [18024]
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How are they different?
Jan 26, 2015, 3:04 PM
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both seem to have as their mission to be motivators rather than theologians and both are heads of huge congregations. Is it like comparing coke vs pepsi? Or are there more drastic differences between the two?
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All-In [26968]
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Noble is hip, Osteen is slick.
Jan 26, 2015, 3:12 PM
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But I think both are doing mostly the same thing...a prosperity gospel, as was discussed a little bit above in the exchange between me and tdrake. God wants you to be happy/rich/fulfilled, etc.
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All-In [29036]
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I don't follow Perry much
Jan 26, 2015, 3:15 PM
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But from the few messages I've heard (and some of them have been off-the-mark) I haven't heard his preaching as prosperity gospel. I may be missing those messages, and his "there is no Hebrew word for commandment" message was a head-scratcher for sure.
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All-In [26968]
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The "Ten Commandments" thing is an obvious example.
Jan 26, 2015, 3:25 PM
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He changed it from what the Lord commanded, to teach his people to be holy...into something that is all about self, and how the "promises" benefit self. Everyone got all up in arms about it...to me, it was par for the course in the "church" today.
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All-In [28802]
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I really don't think it was quite that bad
Jan 26, 2015, 4:01 PM
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If it was par for a course, it was par for the course of Christian reinterpretation of Jewish tradition in the light of Christ's fulfillment of the law.
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All-In [29036]
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Quite a big difference theologically
Jan 26, 2015, 3:13 PM
[ in reply to How are they different? ] |
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Though I'm not the world's biggest Perry Noble fan, and he has said some things which I think are non-scriptural, his messages still contain the general tenants of orthodox evangelical christianity. He preaches man is sinful in need of a savior and that salvation is through Christ alone. Olsteen? Well not so much.
I think Perry has issues with discernment and he misses the mark (as do most, that's not throwing stones), but his aim is still in line with traditional evangelical theology. However, I've been to a number of Lakewood services and have never heard the name Jesus mentioned outside of what you were promised to receive if you just have faith.
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All-In [28802]
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Noble is pretty orthodox Evangelical
Jan 26, 2015, 3:55 PM
[ in reply to How are they different? ] |
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Osteen is not. Osteen is probably the primary advocate of the Prosperity Gospel, while Noble would probably vehemently disagree with that way of thinking (even if some people have accused him of flirting with it). Most Evangelicals would tell you that Osteen is a heretic, while, even if they were uncomfortable with Noble's style, most Evangelicals wouldn't have any problem with Noble's theology.
Actually, come to think of it, I don't think most mega- church pastors are really deep theologians. People like Tim Keller and John Piper might be the exception. Maybe that's because the pastoral call is a different kind of ministry from that of the Christian theologian.
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Hall of Famer [21577]
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Re: Noble is pretty orthodox Evangelical
Jan 26, 2015, 7:40 PM
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You are correct...most mega church leaders aren't deep theologians....hence dumb it down and lack of education. This can be dangerous. But its the same with all religion so whatev.
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Associate AD [828]
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Mark Driscoll is a prime example
Jan 27, 2015, 9:15 AM
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Mark has no theological training and was "self-ordained" when he started his ministry. Look at his track record, and where he is now.
(He did get a degree online later in his career. That's more than Noble and Osteen)
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All-In [28802]
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Re: Mark Driscoll is a prime example
Jan 27, 2015, 12:32 PM
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Comparing Noble to Osteen is irresponsible. And let's not forget that Driscoll didn't resign because of theological ineptitude. He resigned because he was too abrasive, and because he plagiarized some things in a book. Noble and Driscoll follow pretty traditional forms of Evangelical theology, and Driscoll especially was interested in Reformed theological rigor. In fact, Driscoll has a M.Div from an Evangelical seminary in exegetical theology. I'd say that's "theological training."
So, no, Mark Driscoll's situation isn't any more comparable to Noble's than Osteen's is.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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All-In [42171]
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Here's one reason we should all be wary of this guy
Jan 27, 2015, 3:59 PM
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Put aside what he preaches. Put aside the cult-like following. Put aside the crookedness. We can all go on with our lives regardless of that.
What we should worry about is the fact that this guy is way too in bed with Clemson. He's already had Clemson tip-toeing on some legal thin ice on more than one occasion.
That's fine if our players want to go to church there, but Clemson needs to sever the ties with this guy. He's latched onto Clemson like a lamprey to keep his income flowing and he doesn't care what damage he might do to our school.
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