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Topic: Next year's BB starting lineup...
Replies: 67   Last Post: Mar 18, 2019 11:42 PM by: longtallsam®
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Next year's BB starting lineup...


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 9:59 AM
 

My guess based on current roster....

Trapp
Simms
Newman
Tyson
Jemison

I predict we'll be picked to finish 15th in the ACC but will finish inside the top 10. NIT bid next year would be expected.

How does 2020 recruiting look? Typically w/ CBB we haven't seen many Freshman starters; they're just not ready for the ACC. So hopefully Brad will dig down in the transfer portal and pull-out a gem or two.


Message was edited by: tigermaniac®


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Re: Next year's BB starting lineup...

[1]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:01 AM
 

That's an ugly looking starting 5.. just image what our 3-4 deep of the bench will look like. Hardly an acc roster

2019 student level member

Hey, at least next year we aren't likely to be disappointed

[6]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:01 AM
 

because we won't have any expectations to begin with.

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Re: Next year's BB starting lineup...


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:04 AM
 

Perhaps Brad should let some of his freshman start. They may not be ready for the ACC but you never know. You might just have that spark plug you were looking for.


I assume you mean Trapp...

[1]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:07 AM
 

not Sapp.


Baehre and White over Jemison and Tyson***

[2]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:10 AM
 



2019 student level member

Re: Baehre and White over Jemison and Tyson***


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:41 AM
 

White’s a grad transfer and won’t return next year

2019 student level member

I think he graduated early and has a year of eligibility

[2]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:54 AM
 

left.

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Correct***

[1]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 11:41 AM
 



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null


Incorrect. White has one more year.***


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:51 PM
 



2019 white level member

Re: Next year's BB starting lineup...

[1]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:16 AM
 

Dawes
Trapp
Newman
Simms
Baehre


Re: Next year's BB starting lineup...

[1]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:21 AM
 

Dawes could be interesting. Good D and looks to have that "point producer" mentality.

While there is more of an unknown about this team, it isn't as flawed as this year's team. We did not have a point producer beyond Reed and it showed...

We will see, I expect us to be picked low in the ACC but we will likely be another mid-table bubble team.


Where are the shooters and scorers?

[1]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:30 AM
 

We're going to have to be a defense-first-slow-down-use-every-second-of-the-shot-clock team.

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Yay!


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:31 AM
 

That is exactly the kind of exciting basketball that can really generate fan support.

2019 student level member

Snowflake Basher........Out


Re: Yay!

[1]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:36 AM
 

Doesn't stop UVA.

Would you prefer the triple-option gimmick of OP that did not produce consistent wins?


If we change to a triple-option,

[1]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:39 AM
 

can we utilize the cut-block? I feel like that would be interesting to watch.

2019 student level member

Snowflake Basher........Out


UVa has shooters all over the floor


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:40 AM
 

Who are ours? If you're going to play that style you have to maximize possessions, and making 3's is a big part of that


Re: UVa has shooters all over the floor

[1]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 11:21 AM
 

Yes, and that was precisely the issue with this year's team. Folks were looking at a bunch of "seniors" coming back and not at the parts.

We show sub 32% from the arc, last year we were 37%. That is literally the difference between this year and last (and having 3 scorers).

Now, unless you are Duke with Zion and breaking the statistics, a sub 32% 3 year normally equates to below .500 in conference play.

We ranked 14th in 3pts attempted, 13th in 3pt made, and 10th in %. At least this shows that we were wise in our shots selected. Most teams with fewer % from 3 finished lower than us with the exception of Miami and Pitt, but Miami was jacking it constantly and Pitt... was well Pitt. Fewer attempts than us.

What also hurt was that our 3 defense was poor at best to team could just outshoot us if they could... but even then we out performed out own metrics.


So back to my question


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 11:31 AM
 

where do we find that next year? Guys will improve, but who are the guys who will consistently hit the shot we need the most with this style of play?

Tyson is probably the best shooter on the team as of now, and he showed flashes down the stretch, but if he's our best, we're in trouble. And our post game next year has equally huge questions


Re: So back to my question


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 11:48 AM
 

That is what we get to wait and see as the upcoming team is a bit unknown. Dawes could be a freshman dandy, but we will see.

This past year was our worst year since 14-15 as far as 3pters and we were 16-15 that year (but somehow 8-10 in ACC play).

Now is an interesting point on whether or not you trust Brad's development abilities (and if he can pickup a grad-transfer/point producer... but I don't bank on those). I think the team will have a very different look but in the same "boring" Brad style of high-IQ level game plans.


Different for sure

[1]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 12:16 PM
 

Trapp isnt a PG, so a freshman will have to take that mantle. That's normally not a winning formula for us. Haven't had a freshman start at PG since Stitt. The only freshman who has started under Brad is Grantham.

We have no low post presence as of now, so playing inside out will be tough.

We have no proven consistent shooters.

We have no rim protector.

I really hope some guys take quantum leaps forward, but we've rarely seen that under Brad. We've seen good, incremental improvement, but not huge leaps. Unless that happens with at least 2 guys, I just can't see anything but a very long year next season


Re: Different for sure


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 2:19 PM
 

And how is this all that different from this year? Many of the same flaws you mention are present in the current line up. With the exception of Thomas, we are equally suspect in the paint this year. Even look back at Thomas's development, he really wasn't much of a factor until his playing time topped 25 minutes. Actually Baehre's stats almost mirror Thomas's first year at Clemson vs his time at UNCA. that being said, we have more big-youth coming up. Simms, Tyson, Williams and Baehre as least provide a foundation for folks to develop.

Really, the development we need is the shoot/scorer side. Even with our "seniors" we were near the bottom of turning it over so inexperience might not be as big of a deal.


Re: Different for sure


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 2:29 PM
 

Baehre's stats at UNCA are misleading.

He had 2 senior guards on their team that hogged the ball. Dude is going to be a beast in his final 2 years at Clemson.

When talking about big men, up until 2 years ago we have NEVER had depth when talking about big men. Why is it such a problem now?

We have White, Jemison, Simms, Baehre, Malik William... All of them are competent.

Do you remember when we would only have one competent big man?

Noko and Djitte being our big men depth come to mind.


Re: Different for sure


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 2:42 PM
 

+1

Yeah, I attend a few UNCA games and I was in Littlejohn last year.

I was really excited to have him become a tiger. I wonder if the UNCA game a few years ago had a factor for his transfer (plus McDevitt leaving). Decent game against us.


No one but Simms has proven anything


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 5:09 PM
 

and he played SF this year. Baehre may turn out great, but unless he adds some bulk, he'll get tossed around like a rag doll in the league. Jemison is athletic but extremely raw. White improved down the stretch but is hardly a starting center as of now. William hardly played last year and missed all of this year.

How can you say any are competent, especially in the ACC?


Re: No one but Simms has proven anything


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 6:27 PM
 

Simms played PF all year. He even played C in small ball line ups. He almost never saw the court as a SF.

I agree with you regarding the competence of the other big men listed. I would like to believe that they're competent, but they need to show it first. I'm optimistic that Jemison will be good with a few years of coaching and that White can be serviceable next year...but they haven't exactly shown us anything yet outside of potential.


Actually, he played mostly 3


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 6:40 PM
 

though in our offense their is little difference between 3-4. Our 4 rarely plays in the post. He did play 5 some out of necessity. That said, he's our best post player entering next year, which doesn't bode well as neither or 3-4 play in the post. I do see him at 4 next season, which is his natural position, as he really struggled trying to guard quicker guys on the perimeter this year


Re: Actually, he played mostly 3


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 9:58 PM
 

Are you saying Skara was the 4 or that we had two SF's out there? Either way, I'm fairly sure that Skara was our 3 and Simms was our 4.

I agree that he struggles to defend quicker players. I would actually prefer to see him play a little more 5 this year. I think he has the build to do so and it would really open up the lane because of his ability to shoot the 3.


He wound up playing 3 on defense


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:23 PM
 

as Skara was guarding whoever the other teams best player was. In our offense we basically have two 3's as we play one in, four out.

He's not tall enough to defend the post unless the other team is playing small.

I like Simms. I'm not sure how he fits in our offense though. He needs to be banging down low far more than he has been allowed to, but if you have a center on the floor, and we do need one defensively at least, in our offense as currently run, he can't do that.

He's our best player entering next year and we have no place for him. At 6'7, 250 he's wasted hanging out around the 3 point line


Re: He wound up playing 3 on defense


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:35 PM
 

Right, but the best player/scorer on almost every team in college basketball is a guard. So, we've got Skara, Mitchell and Reed all defending guards. Skara may have occasionally switched onto a PF, but he was almost always defending ball handlers.

I think he's strong enough to hold his position down low, if he has weak side help from someone like Baehre who is tall enough to provide rim protection, then we should be fine. I would agree that shouldn't be our go-to lineup, but I think it could provide some interesting mismatches on the offensive end.

I'm hoping that he's utilized better now that he'll be one of the go-to options for scoring next year, but I agree that he looked out of place this year. I'm hoping that was mainly due to Skara being a negative on the offensive end and messing with the flow of the offense. Simms seemed to have a pretty clear role when Devoe was the starting SF, so I'm hoping he'll revert to that form of himself but who knows.


You realize Skara was our best 3 point shooter


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:43 PM
 

this year dont you? Baerhe is a complete unknown. At UNCA he was regularly the tallest player on the floor, and he still was inconsistent offensively. In the ACC he'll be going up against guys as tall or taller who outweigh him by 30-40 lbs.


Re: You realize Skara was our best 3 point shooter


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 11:16 PM
 

By what metric? He shot 35% and Reed shot 37%. Skara also only shot when he was WIDE open and was still shooting only 35%. He took 80 3 point shots on the season. For comparison, Devoe took 217 last year. This year, Simms took 118, Mitchell took 148, and Reed took 127.

Skara's percentages are greatly inflated because he was so tentative on the offensive end and he only took shots when he was wide open. That killed our offense because no one respected him as a threat and our opponents could easily hide their weakest defender on him.

Yea, I'm not trying to guess at how well he's going to do offensively. However, his height and length are more than enough to warrant the assumption that he will be a decent weak side defender/shot blocker.


Inexperience is always a big deal at Clemson


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 5:14 PM
 

name a good Clemson team that didnt have a veteran nucleus? I can name 2. 1974 with Wise and Rome as freshmen and Tree ss s soph, and Barnes 2nd year. That's it.

Tree and Wise are two of the top players in our history, and Buck and Boogie were as well.

You see that type talent here?


I think 4 things must happen, if we are to be decent next


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 11:28 PM
 

year.

1. Must find a reliable point guard.

2. Simms needs to make the kind of improvement Grantham did, his senior year.

3. White must show marked improvement in the paint.

4. Someone has to become a reliable 3-point shooter(Newman or Trapp?)

2019 white level member

Yes. OP was much better at getting us into the tournament.


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:45 AM
 

Which is the opportunity you need. BB can't get even get us there and his teams aren't nearly as much fun to watch. Hard to win any NCAA Tournament games when you never get into the tournament.

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OP's teams were fun to watch?

[2]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:31 PM
 

You enjoyed teams with good guard play breaking our predictable press over and over, leading to tons of easy baskets? Because I didn't.

I don't find our current offense boring at all. Then again, I can appreciate a motion offense and a team that runs when it has numbers and slows it down when it doesn't.

2019 white level member

Re: Where are the shooters and scorers?


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:50 AM
 

I think we will see lots of 3's next yr.

Trapp
Simms
Baehre
Tyson
Newman


Lots of rebounds to fall into the wrong hands.


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:54 AM
 

Since our bigs don't really like to hang out around the basket and get rebounds, put backs and other easy shots. Brownell likes bigs that can hang out on the perimeter and jack up threes.

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Re: Where are the shooters and scorers?


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 3:32 PM
 

I actually think our offense might be better next year. We won't have better individual scorers than Reed or Thomas, but the offense should open up more due to 3 point shooters. Also, I hate to rag on Skara because he's a great defensive player, but he ruins the flow of the offense. Losing Skara should be a positive for the offense. With that said, our defense is going to be an issue early on.


Who are these 3 point shooters?***


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:25 PM
 




I'm all for optimism

[1]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:41 AM
 

I just dont see anyway next year isnt pretty ugly


Re: Next year's BB starting lineup...

[1]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 11:02 AM
 

That projected lineup averaged a combined 18 pts per game last year with Simms and Trapp averaging 14 pts of that. Also, don't recall too many freshmen who've been able to make a significant impact with the ball. Those coming in may prove different, but at this point it doesn't prompt me to make any optimistic predictions.

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Re: Next year's BB starting lineup...I think we have an over

[2]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 11:05 AM
 

seas trip and tourney. Maybe this will help the younger guys transition to college ball quicker. I hope so anyway

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that's rough


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 11:30 AM
 

excited about Tyson though. Jemison will be a tough transition from Thomas. hopefully Chase Hunter will come in ready to compete.


Re: Next year's BB starting lineup...

[1]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 11:56 AM
 

There will be long scoring droughts next year, as that will be expected. Pre-season analysts will put us about 13 in the ACC. It will be aggravating but I'll continue to watch and pull for the Tigers. For me it is easy to watch an avg basketball team after we win the football Nat'l Championship. I don't know what it is but the football winning just makes basketball season fun, no matter the outcome. Same with baseball too. Give me great fball success and the glass remains half full all the time. Am I alone?

Message was edited by: 92citadelgrad®


2019 white level member

The opposite is true for me.

[1]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 12:03 PM
 

When your football coach is pulling in the best football players from all over the country and they all talk about how great it is in Clemson, it makes you wonder why kids who play basketball well don't see it too.

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Re: Next year's BB starting lineup...


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 12:06 PM
 

One of the freshmen will eventually start. I like all three and Trapp has to really improve to be a point guard.I don't see it. These 3 freshmen will make an impactm


Which freshmen have made an impact as freshmen


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 12:15 PM
 

on one of Coach Brownell's teams? Are we expecting too much from a young inexperienced and unknown team?

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Grantham


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 12:19 PM
 

that's about it


Re: Grantham


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 1:55 PM
 

I think its more difficult for back court players to have an impact their first year in the ACC.

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It certainly helps take some of the sting out of the losses,


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 12:16 PM
 

that's for sure, especially the manner in which we often experience them. Every little bit helps.

2019 white level member

Basically you're saying you don't expect any improvement

[1]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 12:20 PM
 

in the next two years. I agree, and am curious if the powers that be, as well as the fan base, are satisfied with long-term mediocrity.

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
- H. L. Mencken


If Drad's words are to believed, no


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 12:26 PM
 

but his actions will tell us after next year


Re: Next year's BB starting lineup...

[1]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 2:13 PM
 

Don't think we will be bad next year, but it looks like I'm in the minority. Most likely a bubble team.

- I've heard that the coaches think that Baehre is a future NBA player.

- I personally think that Amir Simms and Clyde Trapp are going to be studs their last 2 years.

- Hunter Tyson hopefully will be a great shooter next year. Think he had the most pure shot on the team last year.

- I think Newman is going to be a good one for us. Most likely a role player next year

- We have a pretty good recruiting class this year so I expect them to contribute.


Re: Next year's BB starting lineup...


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 6:21 PM
 

In order for Simms to become a stud, he'll need to develop an effective mid range offensive game. At this point, his offense has consisted mainly of shooting 3s and making assisted layups. Should be able to identify and take the ball to open spots inside the arc for 12-15 foot attempts as a shot creator. Had just 30 FT attempts for the season playing almost 27 mpg indicating he hasn't played consistently enough inside the arc. White shot 22 averaging 8.6 mpg. An effective offense needs to have at least three starters who can create their own shots. It was the case last season with Reed, Mitchel and Devoe typically starting and able to create for themselves. This year, its been primarily Reed and Mitchell.

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I understand our offense is 1 in, 4 out


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 6:44 PM
 

but Simms not getting more touches in the paint was baffling to me this year. He was by far our second best inside threat, yet rarely played there. So teams were able to collapse on Eli and we inconsistently hit the 3 when he'd kick it back out.


Re: I understand our offense is 1 in, 4 out


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 9:33 PM
 

Simms appears to be channeling Grantham's first three years. DG had low FT attempts in relation to minutes played. Was frustrating to watch since he had a better than 80% success rate. He did turn his game much more effectively inside the arc his last year, but unfortunately it was cut short. I think his more versatile offensive game translated into an NBA roster spot.

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But in our offense Simms played

[1]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:32 PM
 

away from the basket by design. He's 6'7, 250. He's a banger who by design is hardly ever in the paint. Grantham played PF last year but he had perimeter skills that allowed him to create his own shot mid range. Simms doesn't have that skill set. I'm glad he can hit the 3, but that needs to be a shot he's taking on occasion. By design shooting the 3 was his role this year. He's actually a good back to the basket player who never plays with his back to the basket


I agree Striper. I thought Sims should've taken it to the


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 11:42 PM
 

basket more often. The so-called metrics of todays game show that the mid-range shot is the most inefficient shot for most teams. Supposedly, it is better to either shoot the 3, or take it to the basket. If that is true, Simms needs to go to the basket much more often, to score or draw the foul.

2019 white level member

seems like everytime i feel the cupboard is bare at clemson


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 2:43 PM
 

in basketball the next group ends up being way better than expected. Except during the shyatt years. Every year was worse than the previous during that era. But the caveat is that every time we seem to have all the pieces filled we underachieve and do far worse than i could have imagined. The plight of a Clemson basketball fan i guess.

My guess is we will be better than you think. Alot of these young guys got some decent experience this year. Our struggle might be down low. Hopefully Jemison gets some good work in this offseason and blooms. I remember the one year Akin Akingbala was our only big man coming back he ended up looking like Hakeem Olajuwon the whole year. that was one of those years where we did way better than expected. I think we ended up being tied for 7th and i expected us to be dead last. Because the year before he was not good and all we had was shawan robinson coming back but he was like 6-2 shooting guard.


I can't remember a year since Shyatt or OP's


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 6:49 PM
 

first year where the cupboard seems this bare. Only Simms has had even a modicum of success among those who are returning.

I agree there is some talent there, but a couple of guys will need to make monumental leaps for us to avoid a really long year


Akingbala was our only big man coming back he ended (lol)


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:46 PM
 

Akin Akingbala was our only big man coming back he ended up looking like Hakeem Olajuwon

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Sounds like all the facilities improvements...


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 6:30 PM
 

and contract extensions are finally paying off. Until then, we have the prestigious NIT to look forward to this year. As Qualk said we’re definitely “in the discussion”. And as sports genius Walt Deptula said, we should start the clock on Coach Brownell now since he didn’t have the facilities necessary to build a program (even though Barnes did it with those facilities).

Brilliant basketball analysis by the sports experts on WCCP.

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Re: Sounds like all the facilities improvements...

[1]
Posted: Mar 18, 2019 9:46 PM
 

I think next year's team will surprise many very talented freshmen coming. BB needs to let them play and push the ball.


"Many talented freshmen" lol! Who?***


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:47 PM
 



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Well, two four star players.


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:50 PM
 

One of whom is top 100 and the other top 150. The other is a three star who can shoot lights out and averages 30 points per game for his high school in Indiana.

No one is saying that they are 5 star players, but they are very good. It's Brownell's best class to date, ranked #35 nationally.

2019 white level member

Barnes didn't build squat.


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:49 PM
 

He only stayed four years. One of those seasons was great, resulting in a Sweet 16 appearance. The other two NCAA Tournament appearances were first round exits. The most disappointing was his last one here, in 1998, when we crapped the bed as a 6 seed by losing to the 11 seed Western Michigan.

Good coach? Absolutely. But he didn't build a program here. In fact, due to his recruiting being subpar, he left. For evidence of the drop-off that was coming, look at Shyatt's second year here. We were 10-20 and dead last in the ACC.

2019 white level member

Point guard?***


Posted: Mar 18, 2019 10:38 PM
 



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