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All-In [42196]
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It's not hard.
Sep 24, 2017, 10:41 PM
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If NFL players kneeling the anthem upsets you, that's fine. You, of course, have every right to speak out against them as they do to kneel.
It's fine if you:
-Hate them for it.
-Speak out against them for it.
-Choose to turn off the NFL or boycott the league.
-Post lots of memes and rants on social media about it.
-Film yourself going on a rant in your car like a fool.
-Wrap yourself in the flag and sing every patriotic song you can think of.
But if you want these players to be forced to stand (meaning they face repercussions if they don't), if you want them to lose their jobs for it, if you want them to face some sort of prosecution for it, or you wish physical harm on them for it, you are not a patriot. You are not an American who supports what this nation stands for. You are someone who has too much time on his hands and wants a nation that doesn't permit free expression.
If what they're doing angers you, speak out loudly and proudly about it. But if you want them to face some sort of punishment or harm for it, it's time to reexamine your priorities in life.
It's not hard. Just ignore it, and you'll be surprised how much more relaxing your life is.
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Orange Blooded [3520]
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Well Said...***
Sep 24, 2017, 10:44 PM
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Legend [17294]
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It is easier to catorigize "kneelers" as wanting to rape ...
Sep 24, 2017, 10:54 PM
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your women, kill your babies, steal your money, tear down the government, disrespect history, dishonor patriotic sacrifice and worship the devil than recognizing different perspectives based on life experiences. The perception and in many cases the reality of different segments of our population may becquite different than middle class and upper class white folks.
I stand because the country I live in gives other folks the right to kneel!
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Heisman Winner [111628]
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Re: It's not hard.
Sep 24, 2017, 11:02 PM
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well said, and for the "these guys are paid to play a game and not voice their opinions crowd", just keep in mind that players in the league on average are far better educated than the the american people as a whole. Almost every single player in the league has at least 3 years of college education, where only 31 percent of americans have a bachelors degree.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Ehhh. It's not time to turn the other cheek here Cat.
Sep 24, 2017, 11:11 PM
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Just stop with the "right" to do it argument. No one (logically) is saying otherwise. Americans have the right to do tons of distasteful things.
I would say the biggest issue is the NFL owners being spineless. And for such I will not watch.
Ignoring it is not an option. Ignoring it is what they want us to do. That want us to accept this stuff as the norm. I for one refuse to accept.
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Legend [18026]
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Who wants you to ignore it? Isn't the point that you don't?
Sep 25, 2017, 12:27 AM
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at least from the players' standpoint?
To your point about the owners, I wonder how it would look if an owner fined or fired a player for not standing for the anthem. Is there precedent for such a thing?
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110%er [8988]
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league rules call for discipline , fines and whatnot
Sep 25, 2017, 7:49 AM
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maybe they should protest the owners being allowed to violate anti-trust laws instead of being used for politics
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Heisman Winner [137976]
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OK, what do the league rules say the discipline and fines
Sep 25, 2017, 9:00 AM
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should be for not standing for the national anthem? There you have it. That's the debate. It's not spelled out, and it's not even clear that it's a violation. You think it should be. Others don't.
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Rock Defender [53]
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There’s a fake news article circulating on buddybook which
Sep 25, 2017, 9:25 AM
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cites a nonexistent rule about the anthem. I’m assuming he’s referencing that.
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All-In [42196]
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Re: Ehhh. It's not time to turn the other cheek here Cat.
Sep 25, 2017, 7:16 AM
[ in reply to Ehhh. It's not time to turn the other cheek here Cat. ] |
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Ehhh. It's not time to turn the other cheek here Cat.
Of all the things people do in the world, this is the one where it's time to eschew the teachings of Jesus in the Bible? In that book, he was the master of peaceful protest. But this is the one that makes people say it's an exception? Really?
Just stop with the "right" to do it argument. No one (logically) is saying otherwise.
Sure they are. As you said, not logically, but in their mind, it's logical.
Ignoring it is not an option. Ignoring it is what they want us to do. That want us to accept this stuff as the norm. I for one refuse to accept.
Try it. You'll be surprised how it works. You said you won't watch, so it appears you're already going to ignore it.
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CU Medallion [58419]
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You always have a well thought out opinion.
Sep 24, 2017, 11:38 PM
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I respect that, even when I don't agree.
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All-In [42196]
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Thanks, bro, you too.***
Sep 25, 2017, 7:16 AM
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Legend [15749]
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Three comments:
Sep 25, 2017, 12:10 AM
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1) Completely disagree with your "not a patriot" declaration. If I deeply cared about a pro team, and one of the guys was doing this, I'd want him fired. I'd want him off the team I love. I just happen to not love any teams in that league. I would agree with you if you wanted them imprisoned.
2) Completely AGREE that ignoring them would be the most appropriate thing to do. There's a reason I'm not turning on the NFL anymore. And I guess you can call it a boycott, but really it's just looking at the product as a whole, part of which is this ridiculous kneeling crap, and saying "I don't want to indicate that this is anything I support." I'm not asking anyone else to do it.
3) Why DO people make those videos in their cars?
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Heisman Winner [111628]
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Re: Three comments:
Sep 25, 2017, 12:12 AM
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there was a poster earlier that wished harm and injury to the players that took a knee. That is where the "you are not a Patriot" comment is coming form.
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Legend [15749]
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Okay...well...three more comments:
Sep 25, 2017, 12:18 AM
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1) The OP didn't limit the "unpatriotic" decree to just people who wished bodily harm.
2) The comment as you have framed it makes little sense to me. It's like saying "If you wish a season ending injury on these people, you're not upper management material in a tech company." What? The two are unrelated.
3) Seriously, the videos in cars...do you not have a room at your house you can use?
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All-In [42196]
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Re: Three comments:
Sep 25, 2017, 7:22 AM
[ in reply to Three comments: ] |
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1. Wanting people fired or out of work for expressing their opinions isn't American. Especially if we want that punishment to come when someone voices their political opinion. Far less free nations than ours engage in that practice. Would you want that done to you for expressing your opinion? I'm pretty sure all of us on here have said something we regret, and quite possibly right here on this board. What if people tried to get others fired for it? Well, actually, that's happened before on Tigernet. Usually at the hands of a ####, but not always.
I understand someone might say or do something so horrific that their boss wants em gone. I get that, and I understand the First Amendment doesn't protect that. But for others to try to get people fired because they disagree with their politics? C'mon.
2. Word. Usually ignoring stuff like this makes it go away. And that's where Trump failed. Although he probably knew it would energize his base.
3. I dunno, man, but it's stupid, right? Who has an opinion they're dying to share so badly that they have to record it in the car right there. Secondly, who actually wants to listen to them rant in their car?
The worst has to be that Political Cowboy guy. I've never actually turned the volume on when I've come across his videos so I don't know what he says, but he still looks like he's talking about doing filthy things to your livestock. He has to be. He's probably pulled up at someone's farm right now and is discussing on YouTube what he wants to do to the sheep.
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Legend [15749]
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You can't just say people would want them fired "because of
Sep 25, 2017, 7:59 AM
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their politics." As a conservative, I'd have to be pretty deluded to think that the majority of the athletes I cheer on, musicians I listen to or actors I watch share my political views. And that's fine. The issue is the actions they took as a representative of my team that drives a wedge between teammates and each other, fans and other fans, fans and the team, etc. And mind you, I'm not calling for anyone's firing, and I don't think it's necessary...but I also don't think it's unpatriotic.
Good discussion. Thanks for starting it.
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All-In [26968]
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Yes, if they were "fired" (released is the better word)
Sep 25, 2017, 8:05 AM
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it would be because their conduct was detrimental to the team, not because their opinion was a certain way.
So far, it doesn't seem like the bosses think that is the case.
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All-In [42196]
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I think it is for their politics.
Sep 25, 2017, 8:58 AM
[ in reply to You can't just say people would want them fired "because of ] |
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What's the biggest response I'm hearing from those opposed to it? "Shut up and play football." (Never mind that they are doing this quietly and playing football)
They don't want these players to speak their minds unless it's something they agree with.
Is it dividing the team and the fans to the point the team isn't performing? Doesn't seem to be, and I'm sure an owner will fix that if it is.
And if we're using division as a reason to can someone based on their words, I know a guy in D.C. who fits that bill.
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All-In [26968]
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Oh, I think many people, including the President...
Sep 25, 2017, 9:22 AM
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want them fired for their political opinions and perceived "disrespect".
What I was saying is that if it ACTUALLY happened, the owners would be doing it because of detriment to the team, not because of all that stuff people are mad about.
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Legend [15749]
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Agree to disagree. Like I said, I don't think many
Sep 25, 2017, 9:30 AM
[ in reply to I think it is for their politics. ] |
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conservatives delude themselves into thinking that the actors, performers, entertainers, singers and athletes that we support share all of our opinions. Many people will voice their opinions and that's fine. Hold fundraisers for Democratic candidates and that's fine. But yes, on Sunday,many of us think you've crossed a line when you use your platform to, in our opinion, insult the country and all that it stands for based on an issue we don't agree with. Everything about this protest is poorly done, in my opinion.
And I'm not taking the bait on the Trump card you played (Ha ha!). He's not the metric by which I base behavior. Which is a sad commentary on our President, but it is what it is. If every action was judged based on what Trump did or said, we'd be ruined.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Three comments:
Sep 25, 2017, 9:25 AM
[ in reply to Re: Three comments: ] |
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1. Wanting people fired or out of work for expressing their opinions isn't American.
Agreed, but i think many people are judging this by what would happen if they protested while on their job.
More than likely, they'd be fired.
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All-In [26968]
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Personally, I don't find the "kneeling" to be disrespectful
Sep 25, 2017, 7:30 AM
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to the flag, the country, or the military. So obviously it doesn't really bother me if they do it.
I decided to not boycott the NFL yesterday, and I watched the Panthers game. I did not once hear anything about flags or protesting. Just football. We all choose what we allow to captivate our attention.
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All-In [26968]
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It's strange to me that kneeling is almost a universal
Sep 25, 2017, 7:32 AM
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symbol of humility and respect. Except in this case? Doesn't make much sense to me.
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All-In [47750]
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Interesting juxtaposition here...
Sep 25, 2017, 9:07 AM
[ in reply to Personally, I don't find the "kneeling" to be disrespectful ] |
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The players and folks that agree with the kneeling are making this statement about race. The people who disagree are making the issue about patriotism.
My take is the players should find other venues and outlets to express their feelings and show some appreciation for this great country we live in.
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All-In [26968]
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They found an avenue that got attention...
Sep 25, 2017, 9:21 AM
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Which is the point of protesting. I can't say, and I suppose no one can, whether other avenues may have had the same effect.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Here I thought that an effective protest was about
Sep 25, 2017, 9:44 AM
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opening people's eyes to your plight and changing some hearts and minds in the process. Now I find out that an effective protest is one that just pissses everyone off. Who knew?
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All-In [26968]
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Certainly I didn't say the protest has been effective...
Sep 25, 2017, 9:46 AM
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I would strongly contend the opposite, actually.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Funny, you said they "found an avenue that got attention,
Sep 25, 2017, 9:48 AM
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which is the point of protesting", and then I said no it's not, and then you said "yeah I didn't say that".
Ok, whatevs.
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All-In [26968]
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OK.
Sep 25, 2017, 9:51 AM
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I'm sorry, my previous sentence did not state every single opinion I have on the concept of protesting. It was just one opinion
I do think that the point of protesting is to get attention. And I also think this particular protest has not been effective.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Thank you for the clarification. I have a learning
Sep 25, 2017, 9:57 AM
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disability that only allows me to infer meaning on a message board from the words you type.
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All-In [26968]
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It occurs to me that I completely agree with you
Sep 25, 2017, 10:04 AM
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on the lack of effectiveness of this protest, and the reasons why, as you stated well in your first reply to me. But we're still arguing. This is America in 2017, I guess. LOL
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Lot o points [155944]
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arguing? Not me. Life's too short for that.
Sep 25, 2017, 10:06 AM
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big hug.
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Legend [16259]
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There was only a tiny smidgen of protesters to begin with.
Sep 25, 2017, 12:06 PM
[ in reply to Interesting juxtaposition here... ] |
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Our POTUS decided to politicize it, vilify them, and threaten them in order to galvanize support from his dwindling political base.
Now there's 10x the original number of protesters and a new and ridiculous level of division in this country as a result. Congrats.
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All-In [26968]
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If this is still a kerfuffle when NBA season starts...
Sep 25, 2017, 7:51 AM
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Wait 'til you see that. There might not be anyone in the building standing up.
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110%er [9101]
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They get $$$$$$ to play a game, keep politics out of it***
Sep 25, 2017, 9:08 AM
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All-In [42196]
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Why?
Sep 25, 2017, 11:46 AM
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We get paid to do our jobs and have probably expressed some sort of political opinion on the job at some point.
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110%er [9101]
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Actually I don't... Just like actors, musicians - I watch a
Sep 25, 2017, 12:49 PM
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movie or concert and sports for entertainment. I don't go to listen to political rants or care what their opinions, I didn't pay for politic, I'm paying for entertainment. Most are a bunch of elitist who are more about do as I say than putting their $$ were there mouth is. Are these athletes who are kneeling giving back to there communities, etc.? I would guess not as much as they could, but they are living in big houses driving nice cars.
But God bless America, they live in a country that allows you to protest. I have the right to not watch the NFL or ESPN sports shows (except Clemson football). I don't watch it for politics, I watch it for entertainment.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Just out of curiosity.........
Sep 25, 2017, 9:38 AM
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Those people who wanted the Google engineer fired for speaking his mind about something he saw as an injustice.......were those people also not patriots?
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Rock Defender [53]
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They were also idiots. Not sure about patriots.***
Sep 25, 2017, 9:45 AM
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All-In [42196]
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I oppose people...
Sep 25, 2017, 11:47 AM
[ in reply to Just out of curiosity......... ] |
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Going on witch hunts to have someone fire for speaking an opinion. I do respect the employer's right to terminate them, but I don't like the idea of Average Joes lobbying for it simply because they disagree.
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Lot o points [155944]
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You and I agree on that point. So is it fair to conclude
Sep 25, 2017, 12:07 PM
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that you believe that those who were outraged at the Google engineer's posting and demanded that Google fire him are equally as unpatriotic as those who demand that NFL teams fire these kneeling players?
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Rock Defender [53]
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A distinction should be made that it's actually illegal
Sep 25, 2017, 1:45 PM
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for an elected official to use their office to lobby for the firing of a private employee for political reasons.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Fair enough, but I'm not talking about Trump.
Sep 25, 2017, 1:49 PM
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I'm talking about joe citizen, and you have plenty of them to choose from on both examples here screaming for others to be fired. I'm just asking, simply, are both equally unpatriotic by Cata's definition for calling for the firing of someone because they strongly disagree with their opinions?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Not sure that patriotism has much to do with the google
Sep 25, 2017, 1:50 PM
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thing though, since there's nothing patriotic about a memo (unlike a national anthem).
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Lot o points [155944]
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I'm just playing within the confines of the definition as
Sep 25, 2017, 1:56 PM
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provided by Cata.
Quite simply that people are unpatriotic because they are calling for the firing of the players because they disagree with their opinion.
It seems that the actions taken by the "pro-firers" is what's being defined as unpatriotic, not the opinion being contested.
I don't know if unpatriotic is the word I'd use, but it sure seems Un-American.
Take it a step further......those doxxing the Charlottsville protesters in an attempt to get them fired from their jobs. Guilty of same offense as the previous two examples we just discussed?
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Rock Defender [53]
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I'm in the "#### Nazis" camp so I'm pretty much good with
Sep 25, 2017, 1:57 PM
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anything that happens to those cucks.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Ok, so that was an extreme example, but there's always
Sep 25, 2017, 2:09 PM
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a problem when you inject subjectivity into an ethical absolute, IMHO.
The theme of this back and forth is that "It's Un-American to try to get someone fired from their job for an opinion you disagree with", but to that you just added "unless their opinion is really, really bad".
Who defines what makes a rotten opinion? Who's to say that some of those offended by what the NFL players are doing aren't just as offended as those offended by the Charlottsville protesters?
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Rock Defender [53]
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I'd say that there's nuance involved in everything that
Sep 25, 2017, 2:15 PM
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inevitably makes blanket generalizations full of logical fallacies.
Whether or not a statue is taken down is much less important than whether or not LEOs can murder with impunity.
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All-In [42196]
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Replies: 49
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