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All-TigerNet [13365]
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Question for anyone demanding change
Jun 9, 2020, 11:43 PM
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The reason for change is systemic racism... correct?
The only consistent change I’ve heard voiced is defund the police.... correct? I’m not clear on what this will do.
I’d like to hear what Current policies are racists or lead to systemic racism.
I’m not really interested in your Utopian view of what policies you’d like to see in a dreamworld, but I feel sure anyone who think they can answer the above will find it hard to resist sharing.
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Heisman Winner [112234]
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Re: Question for anyone demanding change
Jun 10, 2020, 12:00 AM
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some where along the line we decided to defund substance abuse and mental health programs, as well as a a host of other social services. Now law enforcement has too much on their plate and for the most are under qualified to deal with the mentally ill, especially when they are trained to see everyone as a potential threat. I also believe drugs and alcohol are involved in about 70% of violent crime. It seems we should address the substance abuse issues first, it has proven cheaper in the long run. We can't put this on someone with a HS education making 29k, they just are not qualified to deal with these problems.
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Legend [15757]
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I hope you’re right, Balm.***
Jun 10, 2020, 12:01 AM
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All-TigerNet [13365]
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Re: Question for anyone demanding change
Jun 10, 2020, 12:07 AM
[ in reply to Re: Question for anyone demanding change ] |
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So if I understand you, you think the systemic racism has erupted because of defunding substance abuse and mental illness?
Or are you just saying this plays into why you think defunding the police is a good idea?
Separate question- how has substance abuse been proven cheaper?
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Heisman Winner [112234]
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Re: Question for anyone demanding change
Jun 10, 2020, 12:12 AM
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I guess I am speaking more to the defunding effort. The idea is to put more money into prevention programs and less money into law enforcement. It used to be this way 50-60 years ago, but we cut most of the social services that ended up making policing more necessary and vastly increased the number of cops on the street in the 1990's to stem the rise in violent crime.
Cops really should not have to involve themselves in mental health and substance abuse cases being that they are hammers and everything to them looks like a nail. There more effective ways of keeping a society safe. We are a perfect example of how not to go about it.
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All-TigerNet [13365]
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Re: Question for anyone demanding change
Jun 10, 2020, 12:21 AM
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I can appreciate the honesty of simply trying to defend the cause. I don’t think the way this has played out is defendable, but that’s not why I asked the original question. I am really trying to find current policies that endorse or lead to systemic racism.
If I was a smart-A I would ask if you wanted things to be more like 50-60 years ago.
But I’m not- so I won’t.
I would just say that this seems like a reach to me.
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Heisman Winner [112234]
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Re: Question for anyone demanding change
Jun 10, 2020, 10:07 AM
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that is too complicated an issue to even attack in one thread. I did have an attorney one time tell me that Blacks tend to get charged more because they are more likely to take a plea deal, where a white guy will take it to court. cops do not like court appearances so they go after low hanging fruit. I am sure this one of many causes that can be filed under the systematic racism drawer.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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All-In [48078]
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Re: I wish people would chose different terminology...
Jun 10, 2020, 12:31 AM
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Exactly. Defund the police hurts their cause. It sends the wrong message.
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All-In [40970]
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All-In [48078]
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Re: well except defund the police is what some places are doing
Jun 10, 2020, 1:19 AM
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Maybe we do spend too much on police budgets in certain areas, but I think the term "defund police" doesn't get their message across well for what they really want to accomplish overall.
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CU Medallion [60260]
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Re: Question for anyone demanding change
Jun 10, 2020, 9:05 AM
[ in reply to Re: Question for anyone demanding change ] |
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holy smokes. Balm made a legit post that is coherent and full of facts. mercy, the end is near.
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CU Medallion [64837]
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Legend [15757]
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You reap what you sow. The more successful these activists are
Jun 10, 2020, 12:00 AM
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the less safe these communities will be.
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CU Guru [1392]
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Re: Question for anyone demanding change
Jun 10, 2020, 12:02 AM
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I think there’s more than 1 issue being discussed. I’m not gonna over them all, however I’ll try to sum it up best I can.
Systemic abuse of power from police is a big one. This has left the police to do as they see fit being unchecked, and policing themselves. Many of those policies disproportionally effect POCs. So it’s not just about a guy that got choked to death, but the system that allowed it happen to begin with
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All-TigerNet [13365]
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Re: Question for anyone demanding change
Jun 10, 2020, 12:09 AM
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So there’s not a policy? It’s just that police seem to be unchecked?
Or there are a lot of policies and you don’t want to get talk about any of them?
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CU Guru [1392]
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Re: Question for anyone demanding change
Jun 10, 2020, 12:20 AM
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Lol, yeah they are secret
I think they have all been mentioned before... talked about on this board and on tv all day long.
But sure I’ll speak on 1 unchecked example of systemic police issue. Since Mr Floyd’s murder is fresh.
The cop used a neck restraint. According to the Minn police it’s not allowed, yet it’s been used nearly 250 at least in the last 5 years. The people in charge allowed that to happen with little or no consequences. It’s impossible to even get these kinda records in most places unless the Federal govt gets involved. Also that cop had 18 excessive force charges with little or no consequences
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Rock Defender [54]
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Sentencing disparities, mandatory
Jun 10, 2020, 12:32 AM
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minimums, quota systems, funding cuts to public defenders, war on drugs to name a few.
It’s late and there’s a ton you could unpack. If you have Hulu I’d encourage you to watch Crime and Punishment.
If you’ve got Netflix, 13th.
That’s just a few of the issues on the law enforcement side.
Decriminalizing(Not necessarily legalizing) drugs would go a long way as a start.
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Hall of Famer [24517]
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Agree with your last sentence, if not all of it. In a
Jun 10, 2020, 1:57 AM
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testament to short memories, few on this board remember - or will recall only if reminded - why so many blacks are in jail, and why most arrests are of blacks. In the 90's the anger about racial discrimination was about what the police were NOT doing. When crack cocaine was both so cheap and popular, it became the hard drug of choice in the inner city, with effects more devastating and widespread than anything seen prior.
Black leaders accused police of protecting white communities while allowing black communities to self destruct, and part of the response was President Clinton's drug crime bill. [That is not a political comment. I am setting the context there so we can see how charges of racism, if ill placed, cause reactions that lead to worse than nowhere. To his credit, Clinton has publicly stated that he signed a bill that created a bigger problem than it solved.] Blacks saw a problem as racist, and they got what they asked for. Black incarceration thus skyrocketed. Both black and white leaders must share the blame for this, but that is what happened.
Now they are convinced that blacks are targeted for arrest, though it is those drug crimes that are primarily responsible for the arrests. The proposed solution? Stop arresting people for drug crimes. Back To The Future. I agree with decriminalizing some if not most of drug offenses, and for sending home many of the people now in prison for those charges. But we have to stop the lurching from one solution to the other caused by buying into charges of racism. Racism exists. Dysfunctional behavior exists. To conflate the two is to hide from responsibility, black or white.
It is easy to say racismdidit. It is easy to pass a law, slap the dust of responsibility off one's hands, and move on. But problems, like truth, have a nasty habit of being immune to words. They hang around after you've gone to sleep.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Question for anyone demanding change
Jun 10, 2020, 12:33 AM
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I think black people feel they get profiled and harassed more by the cops.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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i don't think there is any doubt that they do
Jun 10, 2020, 12:41 AM
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that has to stop.
I think much can be attributed to the socioeconomic influences, but I believe even affluent black people are subject to different treatment.
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Oculus Spirit [82021]
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They very much are, affluence has no bearing on how
Jun 10, 2020, 9:34 AM
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they're treated initially. If they're driving a BMW then the cop is going to ask them how they got the car.
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All-TigerNet [11254]
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Drug laws, for profit prisons
Jun 10, 2020, 12:48 AM
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Nixon’s was on drugs is still the foundation of our nation’s drug laws. I’m the late 90s, here’s what his Chief of Domestic Policy, John Ehrlichman said about it.
“You want to know what this was really all about,” Ehrlichman, who died in 1999, said, referring to Nixon’s declaration of war on drugs. “The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying. We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”
What has happened in black communities when you take a father or a mother out of a home? It has created a cyclical disadvantage that devastates poor families, a disproportionate number of which are black. Decriminalize it, get those that need it help.
The rise of corporate for profit prisons dovetails nicely here. They have a powerful lobby, contribute a shidload to conservative candidates to keep harsh drug laws in place. Without prisoners, the model fails. The biggest ethical issue is the financial incentive to incarcerate Americans. Again, because of racial bias, this affects a disproportionate percentage in the black communities. These are not equal rights. That shouldn’t sit well with any American.
End the profit prison model.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Drug laws, for profit prisons
Jun 10, 2020, 1:04 AM
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Just a cut and paste, but...
"Since 1970, our incarcerated population has increased by 700% – 2.3 million people in jail and prison today, far outpacing population growth and crime."
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Hall of Famer [24517]
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I agree with your ultimate conclusion, but to blame one
Jun 10, 2020, 2:15 AM
[ in reply to Drug laws, for profit prisons ] |
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President or motivation is a partisan reaction that wont win many converts. By the 90's, crack cocaine was ruining black communities, and black leaders wanted something done, as they should have. President Clinton's drug crime bill was one of the responses, and incarceration of black increased greatly from that point. To his credit, he himself said he signed a law that created a bigger problem than the one it addressed. His words.
That is not a political comment. I am sure there are other factors, and all presidents have made mistakes. But to blame something like this on private prisons sounds like something antifa would say. If profit is the motive, they dont care if an inmate is black or white, and there are a lot more whites to arrest than blacks. Partisan answers are almost never the right ones,
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All-TigerNet [11254]
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Elwyn asked for policies that have led to
Jun 10, 2020, 4:01 AM
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systemic racism, I gave two examples. He didn’t ask for who to blame and I didn’t assign any, no partisanship here. That doesn’t matter. Clinton’s crime bill and the mandatory minimums that went with it can certainly be counted as another example.
For profit prisons are another non partisan issue. They took off in the 90s and flourished under D and R presidents. Not sure where your antifa comment is coming from , I succinctly addressed the ethical problem of creating financial incentive to incarcerate Americans, which is not a D or R concept. Profiting from wrongful treatment of Americans is antithetical to our nation’s core value... freedom. This is a right we should all enjoy, yet we don’t. Thats a D and R problem.
Assigning binary opinion to issues like this wont help a bit. You and I have to care that it’s happening and be willing to speak about it, not to blame, but to help solve. It’s been over 50 years since the civil rights movement and it is clear that many of our policies disadvantage black people. Why do we tolerate that? As Americans, not white people.
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All-In [26968]
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Ending racism is about changing hearts, not policies.***
Jun 10, 2020, 6:23 AM
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All-TigerNet [13365]
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Re: Question for anyone demanding change
Jun 10, 2020, 9:02 AM
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I gotta tell ya- this activity has been pretty disappointing.
Some are speaking about police protocols. More than a couple are talking about drug laws. It’s really all over the board here. Certainly not a lot of consistency. This movement reminds me of song lyrics in the way that 1000 different people listen to the same lyrics and find 1000 different meanings to the same group of words.
All in all, I am not seeing any policies that are racist or lead to systemic racism.
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Rock Defender [54]
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But you set yourself up for that. Because of our constitutio
Jun 10, 2020, 9:10 AM
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and civil rights legislations, you can’t codify racism.
Look into the quota system and the NYPD12 as a start.
Talk to people affected. It’s not a simple issue.
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All-TigerNet [11254]
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Our drug laws were specifically written in order to
Jun 10, 2020, 9:32 AM
[ in reply to Re: Question for anyone demanding change ] |
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target and harm the black community, and you don’t see that as the very definition of systemic?
If you just don’t care, say so.
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All-TigerNet [13365]
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I’ve read and re-read your posts here
Jun 10, 2020, 10:28 AM
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and Thank You! Maybe I’m being dense here. I guess I’m not following the logic of how decriminalizing drugs does anything positive. I understand that you are saying there is a larger percentage of blacks than whites that get thrown in jail over drugs. My mind immediately goes to 2 issues: Isn’t not doing drugs a better solution on a personal level? And do we really think that this won’t also become a lobbyist run corrupt industry if fully legalized?
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All-TigerNet [11254]
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You wanted examples of systemic racism.
Jun 10, 2020, 1:06 PM
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Nixon's principle opposition came from young people(antiwar hippies) and the black community. In creating a "War on Drugs", his administration did so to demonize the two groups that criticized him the most. In their own words, "We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did." They used the media as a weapon to do this sway public opinion (Roger Ailes was Nixon's media consultant)and created overly harsh laws to put a select group of Americans in jail. This is the definition of systemic prejudice. And employed against black Americans, this is racism. The result is a deeply unAmerican concept and a violation of our citizen's rights.
Well, the Vietnam War ended, so half of that equation is gone, but the systemic abuse of black America continues creating a repetitive cycle of hardship and poverty. Why is this OK with you?
You want a true conservative approach? Decriminalization. Addiction treatment is much less expensive than incarceration and results in more of the population participating in the economy. And the cost of putting people in jail for possession of marijuana is an egregious economic negative considering the fact that it is not addictive(not a gateway drug either) and the success of economic growth example in legalized states.
This example does not even touch the topic of police bias and brutality while enforcing these laws, either.
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CU Guru [1392]
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Re: Question for anyone demanding change
Jun 10, 2020, 10:27 AM
[ in reply to Re: Question for anyone demanding change ] |
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its a very complex issue. more than what will fit in 1 sentence or 1 reply, or even 1 page. Its not just 1 voice speaking for everyone, since we all have different experiences and see that same experience in different ways. Not to mention its difficult to explain the need to change to someone that has not been affected
I imagine during the civil rights era of the 60's, someone not affected would say "I don't get it".
change is hard for some people
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Lot o points [156283]
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We had like a mega post on this just a couple days ago.
Jun 10, 2020, 9:12 AM
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Check it out. It was quite productive and civil, as P&R posts go.
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