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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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Many on the far right have bastardized the word socialist
Apr 1, 2019, 10:16 AM
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and that has led to the thread below being all over the place.
Socialism in it’s purest form means the govt. owns all means of production.
The far right has bastardized this by referring to national health insurance for all or Medicare/Medicaid, welfare programs and even income tax as socialist. So, for many the new definition for socialism includes these programs.
But, you can’t have it both ways. If national health insurance is socialist, then so is a national military, public schools,
and taxes for public highways.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Tell that to the Bernie crowd. They use the word just as much.
Apr 1, 2019, 10:19 AM
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They even self-identify using the word.
Also, the word "liberal" has been shot to h*ll too.
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All-In [34597]
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Be better, Joe. You're smarter than this.***
Apr 1, 2019, 10:21 AM
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Heisman Winner [111623]
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Re: Be better, Joe. You're smarter than this.***
Apr 1, 2019, 10:29 AM
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how cute
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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All-In [34597]
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April Fools...you got me***
Apr 1, 2019, 11:19 AM
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All-In [26968]
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I think a lot of times we use labels like that
Apr 1, 2019, 10:31 AM
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to avoid thinking more critically. It's easier to call something socialism or fascism or liberalism or racism, as opposed to articulating what it is, specifically, we don't like about the particular issue.
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Lot o points [155943]
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We just had a massive mega-thread with people
Apr 1, 2019, 10:38 AM
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attempting to think critically to define these terms---you should've jumped in.
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All-In [26968]
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The whole "socialism" thing is not interesting to me.***
Apr 1, 2019, 10:52 AM
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Lot o points [155943]
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not quite.
Apr 1, 2019, 10:37 AM
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Socialism also means collective ownership by workers.
It seems commonly accepted that Obamacare was intended to be a gateway to single payer healthcare.
From there, it could go a few routes....some socialist, some not.
UK's single payer is socialst---from what I understand, the govt owns the health care facilities and employs the health care providers. That's socialist.
Canada, it's more like the roads scenario we were talking about in the US...the govt contracts with private providers to provide the care (much like Medicare/Medicaid).
Probably my biggest issue with either scenario is the loss of options. Ask a Medicaid recipient if they have their choice of doctors and can see them when they want to.....they can't.
One common scenario with any socialist or pseudo-socialist program is that choices are removed for all but the wealthiest of citizens.
I don't really care that I can't choose who paves the street in front of my house. I do care if I can't pick who does my colonoscopy.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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Just saying that in our military and our public schools,
Apr 1, 2019, 12:03 PM
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our govt, “owns the facilities and employs the providers” also.
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Lot o points [155943]
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I never disagreed on public primary/secondary schools.***
Apr 1, 2019, 12:10 PM
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Standout [345]
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Re: not quite.
Apr 1, 2019, 12:44 PM
[ in reply to not quite. ] |
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The UK also has privatized heath care and insurance for those that want it.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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so you're getting what libs hate. The rich will only be able
Apr 1, 2019, 1:01 PM
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to afford the good care, while the rest of us get stuck with government doctors. GREAT
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Legend [15749]
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Oh my goodness! I was kidding about the “if you drive on a
Apr 1, 2019, 10:45 AM
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road” thing. But there it is.
We’ve covered this recently. All I can say is if you “progressives” are fighting the semantics argument you’re in trouble.
“Seeeee? It’s not socialism...we’re just taking over healthcare, higher education, telling you how many ‘males’ and ‘females’ you can have on the board, mandating pay scales, telling you how you’ll get energy...etc, etc. Hey, you like roads? It’s the same thing! Ever deduct a charitable contribution? You’re already a socialist!”
Seriously, this is painful to read.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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Dang, it’s all about you, huh?;)***
Apr 1, 2019, 12:00 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93673]
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What am I getting wrong?
Apr 1, 2019, 11:19 AM
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'...provide for the common defense and promote the general welfare...'
I don't know if public education is socialistic or not. I know 65% of 8th graders don't read at standard. Something is wrong, imo we should consider private education as a valid solution to our substandard educational system. We've thrown billion into public schools with little return on our investment. It had some measure of success in the past but it's failing us and our children now. Imo, that's because it's all the poor had.
Seems if taxpayers are going to put money into something we should expect a good product in return. That's not happening with public schools.
One seems absolute and the other seems like something less that gov control. There seems to be a difference in provide for and promote. One who promotes doesn't necessarily seek control. Nothing more than our defense by the military is a gov overreach. I know that it's relative to one's opinion of how much involvement in foreign activities is justified. I'll also add that I believe providing for our economic opportunity is directly providing for our defense since taxes fund our defense.
I can understand how folks consider taxpayer funded healthcare socialist. Twisted logic might not make one able to appreciate that.
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All-In [34597]
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public school is also killing our kids***
Apr 1, 2019, 11:24 AM
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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Oculus Spirit [93673]
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No, you're assuming the military is social.
Apr 1, 2019, 9:20 PM
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I'm not, just pointing out that it's a primary duty of the US gov.
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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we all depend on publicly shared resources
Apr 1, 2019, 1:30 PM
[ in reply to What am I getting wrong? ] |
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- a healthy, educated workforce
- transportation infrastructure
- power grid
- police, fire, ems
- hospitals
- national defense
While it obviously makes economic sense for a community to share the costs and operation of the fire station, firetruck, hoses, etc, it is more importantly a moral obligation for each of us to pay a proportional share towards these costs.
While this isn't socialism, it demonstrates that we have the capacity as a group to take responsibility for the group's welfare, a classic hallmark of the more advanced civilization.
But a more interesting question is, what do you think happens when we don't each take responsibility for the public welfare?
You end up like Gene Crannick, in a song about house fires.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIF1fnDp9ok
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All-In [42195]
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Re: What am I getting wrong?
Apr 1, 2019, 5:15 PM
[ in reply to What am I getting wrong? ] |
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We've thrown billion into public schools with little return on our investment. It had some measure of success in the past but it's failing us and our children now. Imo, that's because it's all the poor had.
Yet after decades of those billions, America is still the most dominant economy in the world. We're consistently in the top 10 of the most educated in the world. America is still booming. Where, exactly, do you feel we're failing?
I could list more, but like many on this issue, you don't know what you're talking about. You have no qualitative goal that you want met, even if you think you do. You also, like many, overlook that we provide education for all Americans, not just a select segment of the population like other countries.
I usually find people who declare our public schools a failure, when asked about themselves, come up with some excuse about how that doesn't apply to them.
Did you attend public school? Do you think you came out alright?
The public system outperforms the American private school system as well.
Here. Just read these. Don't respond until you do, please.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/opinion/op-ed/article9499466.html
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2018/07/26/private-schools-aren-better-educating-kids-than-public-schools-study-concludes/o5pZEiiuupGlKbilDfvxBN/story.html
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All-TigerNet [11207]
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At some point we need to stop accepting campaigning
Apr 1, 2019, 11:34 AM
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by hyperbole. Socialism is the fashionable scare word used by many conservative thinking people. Seen any of those socialism=Venezuela memes come through your social media that's forwarded from some generic sounding org like, "Freedom for All", etc...? Shows people starving or dying, Venezuelan flag, and some snarky quote at the bottom. Conveniently, they leave out anything about the murderous dictator leading the country. Oh well, some people will buy it, so they send it. And ALLLLLLLL the AOC memes...millions, I tell ya.
On the other side, the racism memes....racists, racists, everywhere. Being conservative doesn't doesn't autodial your personal social policy to white nationalist. Yes, Charlottesville, was awful and disturbing, but a platform was given to them and one person decided to act out of fear and hate. I preferred when Nazis were made fun of, as in the Blues Brothers, and not holding actual rallies covered by the media.
Unfortunately, this foxnews/msnbc mentality is influencing the people we've actually elected and it needs to stop. You can disagree with someone politically and not cast them as evil.
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All-In [31907]
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hmm...no, not really....
Apr 1, 2019, 2:25 PM
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at least not for the examples you listed.
But yes, not everything the government wants to get involved in is socialism...but things certainly can be socialistic in nature.
However, your comparison to mandating private insurance coverage and having over-reaching federal legislation on the products that private insurance can offer (which starts to be socialistic in nature), isn't a good comparison to the military, highways, etc....as they aren't at all directly means of production, but rather basic functions of government.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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Who said anything about mandating private health insurance?
Apr 1, 2019, 2:56 PM
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I said national health insurance for all.
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All-In [31907]
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I was speaking towards the comments of some...
Apr 1, 2019, 3:49 PM
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regarding the ACA.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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Also, just because they are basic functions of govt.
Apr 1, 2019, 3:02 PM
[ in reply to hmm...no, not really.... ] |
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doesn’t mean they aren’t socialist in nature. They can be both,
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All-In [31907]
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No, not really....
Apr 1, 2019, 3:51 PM
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socialism has to do with the means of production, meaning producing of a product.
Roads, infrastructure, military, schools, etc...aren't means of production.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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I stated that in the original post above. The
Apr 1, 2019, 4:12 PM
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far right has incorporated health care, Medicare/Medicaid etc. under the term socialism for political purposes.
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All-In [31907]
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Well healthcare, which is a collection of largely...
Apr 1, 2019, 4:19 PM
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private producers does/could fit into that category.
I don't think we have anything resembling full on socialism now, but we do have things that are moving in that direction or socialist in nature.
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