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110%er [7013]
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All-In [26968]
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I saw this story and was a little bewildered.
Nov 9, 2015, 9:17 AM
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How is this shocking or controversial? Christians have been about converting people to Christianity since the beginning of Christianity. What exactly is surprising about what she is saying? Is it because she said Jews need to be converted? That's all Jesus did while he was here...convert Jews. Again, how is this controversial?
(I don't know who Michelle Bachmann is.)
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All-In [26968]
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It's like..."BREAKING NEWS!
Nov 9, 2015, 9:20 AM
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POLITICAL PERSON BELIEVES AND DISCUSSES A CORE CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE BELIEVED THROUGH CENTURIES."
Ok...
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Heisman Winner [111606]
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Re: It's like..."BREAKING NEWS!
Nov 9, 2015, 11:57 AM
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Headline: 300 years after the enlightenment, citizens of the most developed nation in the history of human civilization still promote myths and fairy tales for policy discussion.
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110%er [7013]
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Legend [18310]
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I couldn't agree more with your post. Politicians from one
Nov 9, 2015, 10:10 AM
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end of the spectrum to the other put too much emphasis on religion, some get flat out ridiculous about the subject.
Go all Tigers, keep everything in it's proper place.
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All-In [26968]
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110%er [7013]
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Serious answer - when leaders truly believe in their heart
Nov 9, 2015, 10:27 AM
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that everything will come to an abrupt end any moment now, it makes planning for the future not much of a priority.
Reagan's Sec. of the Interior, James Watts, was a prime example. "We don't need to worry about endangered species or conservation of resources! The Rapture is nearly upon us!"
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All-In [26968]
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So do you think people who believe that should
Nov 9, 2015, 10:32 AM
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decide to stay out of any leadership positions? Or do you feel that when you take a leadership position, you should stop believing that?
I think it's a false equivalency to say that believing in the return of Christ means not planning for the future. I know that's certainly not the case with me, or anyone I have ever talked to to. And I only know a few hundred people who believe this way.
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Legend [18310]
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Do you think that devout Muslims should be rewarded with
Nov 9, 2015, 10:57 AM
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many virgins when the die for their Lord? How about the Hindus, the Sikhs and the Pope's folks getting their reward for living a good life. Every religion expects supernatural amenities after death don't they?
Go all Tigers, live and let live.
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All-In [26968]
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I would answer your question...
Nov 9, 2015, 11:01 AM
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But I have no idea what your question means.
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Legend [18310]
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All that I can post is that maybe you could get someone to
Nov 9, 2015, 11:13 AM
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draw you a picture. There are thousands of religions, who are you to think that yours is the only one with merit? Native Americans worshiped Gitche Manitou, the Great Spirit. They didn't spell it correctly but I am honored nevertheless.
Go all Tigers, let's hear it for Gitche Manitou.
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All-In [26968]
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We weren't talking about other religions, or whether
Nov 9, 2015, 11:18 AM
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my "religion" has merit, or any other religion does not have merit.
It's like we were discussing the weather, and you asked "Yeah, well what is the current conversion rate for yen?"
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Legend [18310]
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Gitche Manitou is gonna get you , boy.
Nov 9, 2015, 11:35 AM
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Go all Tigers, be good to Prodigal.
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CU Guru [1723]
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You are doing what you are saying he shouldn't be doing
Nov 9, 2015, 3:53 PM
[ in reply to All that I can post is that maybe you could get someone to ] |
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By saying your position on religion is more correct than his. I love the irony of this arguement. "You can't have the position you are right! And I am right about that!"
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CU Guru [1723]
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Tim Keller says it better than I can
Nov 9, 2015, 4:14 PM
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"For example, pluralists contend that no one religion can know the fullness of spiritual truth, therefore all religions are valid. But while it is good to acknowledge our limitations, this statement is itself a strong assertion about the nature of spiritual truth. A common analogy is often cited to get the point across which I am sure you have heard — several blind men trying to describe an elephant. One feels the tail and reports that an elephant is thin like a snake. Another feels a leg and claims it is thick like a tree. Another touches its side and reports the elephant is a wall. This is supposed to represent how the various religions only understand part of God, while no one can truly see the whole picture. To claim full knowledge of God, pluralists contend, is arrogance. When I occasionally describe this parable, and I can almost see the people nodding their heads in agreement.
But then I remind the hearers that the only way this parable makes any sense, however, is if the person telling the story has seen the whole elephant. Therefore, the minute one says, 'All religions only see part of the truth,' you are claiming the very knowledge you say no one else has. And they are demonstrating the same spiritual arrogance they so often accuse Christians of. In other words, to say all is relative, is itself a truth statement but dangerous because it uses smoke and mirrors to make itself sound more tolerant than the rest. Most folks who hold this view think they are more enlightened than those who hold to absolutes when in fact they are really just as strong in their belief system as everyone else. I do not think most of these folks are purposefully using trickery or bad motives. This is because they seem to have even convinced themselves of the "truth" of their position, even though they claim "truth" does not exist or at least can't be known. Ironic isn't it? The position is intellectually inconsistent."
- Tim Keller
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I saw this story and was a little bewildered.
Nov 9, 2015, 2:19 PM
[ in reply to I saw this story and was a little bewildered. ] |
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Well for one she says Jesus is "coming soon"... ok.. even if that were true how would she know that? The Bible says that no man knows the day nor the hour. What does soon mean? Next week? A billion years from now?
Also, there has been violence in Israel and the surrounding region for millennia, maybe it's because there are conflicting ideologies in the region and they are willing to kill each other over it. Not because Jesus is coming back.
Also, it's kinda random to point out the violence in Israel alone. Are there not tons of other areas that have conflict that aren't tied to Jesus?
It's shocking / controversial because this is coming out of, not only a grown women, but a political leaders mouth.
Let's be real here, if she was any other religion (or you know even a different sect of your religion maybe) you and millions of others would blow your top.
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All-In [26968]
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I would blow my top? OK.
Nov 9, 2015, 2:34 PM
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I don't really "blow my top" about anything, certainly not about what religious beliefs other people have, but OK.
Jesus is coming soon...He said it Himself..."Surely I come quickly" (Rev. 22:20). Jesus was coming soon 2000 years ago, and He's coming soon today. The idea is that our job is to live as if He's coming at any moment now.
There are many things happening today that portend the soon coming of the Lord. Many of those things were probably happening before today. That doesn't make it any less true today.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I would blow my top? OK.
Nov 9, 2015, 2:42 PM
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Fact of the matter is, even if it were true, we have no idea when he would be coming back so Bachmann's statement of him coming soon is meaningless and should have no bearing on policy.
> Jesus is coming soon...He said it Himself..."Surely I come quickly" (Rev. 22:20). Jesus was coming soon 2000 years ago, and He's coming soon today. The idea is that our job is to live as if He's coming at any moment now.
That's ok if you believe that, I have no problem with it. But a politician telling us that we have to convert people to her particular religion is ridiculous and I do have a problem with it.
> There are many things happening today that portend the soon coming of the Lord. Many of those things were probably happening before today. That doesn't make it any less true today.
Out of curiosity, like what?
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All-In [26968]
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Straight from the source
Nov 9, 2015, 2:46 PM
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Jesus
Matthew 24:3-14
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Straight from the source
Nov 9, 2015, 2:49 PM
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I mean that is pretty vague
> There are many things happening today that portend the soon coming of the Lord
So what things are happening today specifically? Everything stated in those verses has happened before that was written and continues today.
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All-In [26968]
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Yes...
Nov 9, 2015, 2:50 PM
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As I already said: "Many of those things were probably happening before today. That doesn't make it any less true today. "
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Yes...
Nov 9, 2015, 2:53 PM
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I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't understand your point.
So you have a verse that basically says there will be wars and sorrow. Ok.. well that has been happening since the dawn of man and is still happening... so it's not really a unique instance that points to jesus coming back. We would still have zero indication of when he would come back.
Also, doesn't the bible say something to the effect of jesus's return being swift and unexpected? The point being is that nobody would know, according to the text.
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All-In [26968]
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Yes, you are correct.
Nov 9, 2015, 2:57 PM
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Jesus will come as a thief in the night. That's more from the perspective of the non-Christian. The Christian, while not knowing the day or the hour (no one does), is commanded to live looking up, expecting His return at any time.
You understand that a sense of urgency can make one much more productive. That's also true in the Christian life.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Yes, you are correct.
Nov 9, 2015, 3:04 PM
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> Jesus will come as a thief in the night. That's more from the perspective of the non-Christian. The Christian, while not knowing the day or the hour (no one does), is commanded to live looking up, expecting His return at any time.
Ah ok, didn't realize that.
> You understand that a sense of urgency can make one much more productive. That's also true in the Christian life.
Ok sure, but from my point of view nobody is coming back to "save" us so it is actually a pretty dangerous worldview considering we are likely up against pretty dangerous climate changes. If politicians believe that jesus is coming back to save the world then they would logically conclude that climate change couldn't possibly be an issue. That could literally kill millions if not billions of people.
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All-In [26968]
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Well, everyone is different.
Nov 9, 2015, 3:10 PM
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The Bible doesn't say anything directly about climate change, so it allows for differing opinions. I believe God's command to Adam to tend to the world after the fall applies to all of us, so I am against doing anything to purposefully damage His creation. This is the Biblical doctrine of stewardship. (People often don't think about it from that perspective...I'm much more likely to want to take care of something God created than something that exists due to a long natural process.)
But I also believe God controls the climate, not man. The earth will last as long as He wants it to last.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Well, everyone is different.
Nov 9, 2015, 3:38 PM
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> I'm much more likely to want to take care of something God created than something that exists due to a long natural process.)
I find that a bit odd... if it is indeed here by a long natural process then it is all we've got. If we don't take care of it then we are wiped out.
If God created it, then he could just create another... furthermore, if God created it.. why does it require fixing at all? Why is it so incredibly imperfect. It appears naturally formed, not created.
> But I also believe God controls the climate, not man. The earth will last as long as He wants it to last.
And this is the belief I think is so dangerous. Not the belief itself, but the fact that it leads to complacency about climate change because "god is in control".
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All-In [26968]
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To address the other part of your post...
Nov 9, 2015, 2:49 PM
[ in reply to Re: I would blow my top? OK. ] |
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I don't see anywhere in the article that says anything about policy, or her views on the end times influencing her political policy.
Jesus' great command to all Christians is to go and convert people to Christianity. If one is a Christian and likes obeying Christ, they will have this attitude expressed by Bachmann.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: To address the other part of your post...
Nov 9, 2015, 2:51 PM
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Sure, I'm not arguing that, but that is one of many ideologies. I would think you could understand why most people would disagree with her.
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All-In [26968]
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Oh yes, the disagreement is to be expected.
Nov 9, 2015, 2:52 PM
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My original point is I don't understand why this seems so shocking, or newsworthy. Like people are surprised Christians believe this way, when they have believed this way for 2000 years.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Oh yes, the disagreement is to be expected.
Nov 9, 2015, 3:01 PM
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That's simple, it's not shocking to you because you have a similar ideology as her.
> Like people are surprised Christians believe this way, when they have believed this way for 2000 years.
Nobody is surprised that Christian's believe what their religion says, it's the content of what they believe that is, sometimes, appalling and/or shocking.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to believe something you grew up being taught especially before we had the scientific insight we do now. I completely understand that not everyone is exposed to that and a lot of religious people are vehemently against scientific advances especially if they contradict their beliefs.
The fact is, the more a population is exposed to scientific knowledge, the less religious they become. People are becoming less and less religious at a much faster rate especially with how fast information can change hands via the internet.
I'm not asking you to give up your belief system, but do try to put yourself in others shoes when you see these sort of things. Imagine that you realize that we are here through natural processes (backed up by extremely solid science btw) and that there is no indication of anything supernatural. Now imagine how asinine Bachmann's statements would sound to you....
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All-In [26968]
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Yes, the gospel is "foolishness" to the world.
Nov 9, 2015, 3:05 PM
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I Corinthians 1:21-23
(You all but quoted these verses by the way, in your post just now! You and the Bible agree more than you think.)
If I were not a Christian, I would definitely think her words were foolishness. No doubt about that.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Yes, the gospel is "foolishness" to the world.
Nov 9, 2015, 3:39 PM
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So I am a fool because the bible says I'm a fool... seems legit.
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All-In [26968]
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Now, you know my post said nothing of the sort.
Nov 9, 2015, 3:41 PM
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Not even close. It was about what YOU view as foolish. Not whether you are a fool or not.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Now, you know my post said nothing of the sort.
Nov 9, 2015, 3:46 PM
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You know very well that the bible specifically calls those who do not believe in God fools...
So here's the way I see it. There is crystal clear evidence that we are here naturally. There is also a book that says otherwise and is accompanied by a severe lack of evidence.
I don't see how that could possibly be the foolish view unless of course the creator of the universe made it appear that way. And thus I'm being misled....
That doesn't make any sort of sense and I don't see how I could or should be held accountable for something that I have no way of confirming.
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All-In [26968]
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You are referring to Psalm 14:1
Nov 9, 2015, 3:49 PM
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"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."
I will say this...it does not say a person who doesn't believe in God is a fool. "There is no God" is a different and stronger statement than "I don't believe in God".
That's a totally different discussion than what we were talking about. I wanted to make sure we were on the same page there.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: You are referring to Psalm 14:1
Nov 9, 2015, 4:02 PM
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I can agree with that. I don't know if there is or isn't a supernatural being out there. Could there be? I don't see why not. I very simply have not seen any reason to believe that there is (aside from people telling me so growing up).
But I now realize they didn't have some special knowledge that I don't, they simply believe it to be true. The guy you see leading the church doesn't have some mainline to god. They fail at the same rate as the rest of us and have the same doubts.
I also can't fathom the belief that some child born into a terrible situation in the middle east ends up not believing in the christian god and now has to spend an eternity in hell because of something he had no control over.
The fact is, by far most people are NOT christians. If you take that to it's logical conclusion you are saying that pretty much everyone you come into contact with statistically will spend a much much much longer time in extreme torment and suffering because of some decisions made on earth (a lot of which they had no control over).
Not born into a christian home? Good luck buddy, hell is on the line.
I'm not sure about you but I would think you would have to do something pretty egregious to deserve hell forever. I'm not perfect, far from it but I don't think i've done anything wrong enough to deserve a long jail sentence much less a gruesome eternity in hell.
I would think if that sort of thing was on the line, I could at least get a 100% crystal clear indication that it is anywhere near true. But alas, it is the opposite.
Think of it this way.. and don't take it personally, I think you are a good dude and you have good intentions but I have you telling me on this forum that he is real, and then you point to scripture but then there is no way to prove that scripture to be correct...
I'm supposed to base my eternity off of this? Is it even remotely fair?
On the other hand, I can literally point to a ridiculous amount of evidence for the age of the earth and evolution. Yet, i'm supposed to believe the thing that not only has no evidence, but evidence to the contrary...
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Legend [18310]
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I would surprise me if you are not a nice fellow who tries
Nov 9, 2015, 3:51 PM
[ in reply to Yes, the gospel is "foolishness" to the world. ] |
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behave and practice your religion, but please d it in private. I believe Jesus did say, however, that you should not be like the publicans who pray loudly while trying to pick your pocket (or something to that). When you start your silly proselytizing, you lose me. I don't want anyone telling me what I should believe and what I should not. I could find one on any street corner if I wanted that. They come to the door occasionally and I tell them that I can think for myself Cheap politicians evoke the Lord's name to fool the gullible folks.
Go all Tigers, don't proselytize, let people be themselves.
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All-In [26968]
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Can you please link to one single post where I
Nov 9, 2015, 5:36 PM
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have tried to tell someone what to believe here? Just one post. You cannot do it, because there isn't one.
I cannot believe you can read any of my posts and come to the conclusion I am trying to convince anyone to believe anything. All of my posts are answering questions about what I believe.
I can only believe you are not reading my posts, but are replying anyway. Don't do that.
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Legend [18310]
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Then, you are neglecting your faith. See any post of yours.
Nov 10, 2015, 12:12 PM
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Matthew 28:19: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
When Babtist Bones McKinney was basketball coach at Wake, he babtized all of his Catholic players using a water bucket.
Go all Tigers, don't beat around the bush,
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All-In [26968]
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This is utterly hilarious.
Nov 10, 2015, 12:40 PM
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You criticize me for what you think is "proselytizing". Then when I demonstrate I am not doing so, you criticize me for NOT doing it?
You can't possibly be serious.
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Legend [18310]
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Re: This is utterly hilarious.
Nov 10, 2015, 2:17 PM
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Your Jesus freak attitude is what is hilarious and you demonstrate only the inability to defend yourself.
Go Tigers, defend the goal line this week.
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All-In [26968]
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"Go tigers, don't degrade others.
Nov 10, 2015, 2:19 PM
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(Except me, I can degrade others. The rest of you, don't.)"
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Legend [18310]
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Re: "Go tigers, don't degrade others.
Nov 10, 2015, 3:42 PM
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That's about as radically right as you can get.
Go all Tigers, shape up or ship out.
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