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CU Guru [1907]
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College admittance scandal
Apr 10, 2019, 12:12 PM
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I sometimes ponder just what is a priority for prosecutors in the USA. Yes, what they did is illegal but in truth just how badly did it hurt the Nation. Here we are with headlines saying they will serve jail time and thinking back to the 2008 Economic devastation makes me think it is all for show. Just how many of our Titans of FInance,Banks went to jail over sending the economy in to a 1920's Depression? When none of them could expalin what a CDO/CDS really was ,how it worked and what they were selling and buying makes me think a lot of them should have spent a long time in the Crossbar Motel. DO not even get me started on No Document home loans.
If they were serious there should have been skeleton wind chimes out front of all their building as a warning to the next guy taking over. Naw it is easier to make an example out of small fish . Send old Martha to prison but gee turn a blind eye to GS, B of A, Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac,Wells Fargo,Lehman Bros., Morgan Stanley and the rest to include the online mortgage brokers.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Agreed
Apr 10, 2019, 12:49 PM
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I know lots of people who got into schools because they knew the right person. Doesn’t seem that wrong to me. If anything it shows that a college education isn’t that tough and the biggest hurdle is getting in. Once you’re in- the game is over.
Also agree on home loans and folks not being held responsible when they actually negatively effected others.
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All-In [40344]
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YIL
Apr 10, 2019, 1:19 PM
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There is a term called opportunity hoarding and it’s an actual diagnosis called opportunity hoarding.
Basically it addresses using money, power and such to better oneself to the detriment of others
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CU Guru [1907]
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Re: YIL
Apr 10, 2019, 7:14 PM
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Umm, that is the purpose of power and money if I am not mistaken.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Not when a crime is committed to move to the...
Apr 12, 2019, 2:11 PM
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front of the line. Justice is served those guilty are found guilty and punished by the justice department.
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All-In [34593]
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they paid off Obumma***
Apr 10, 2019, 1:28 PM
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All-In [47796]
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or how Epstein's sex slave island gets a free pass***
Apr 10, 2019, 1:33 PM
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All-TigerNet [11199]
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Somewhat agree, bigger fish to fry out there.
Apr 10, 2019, 2:38 PM
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However, the FBI basically got handed this one on a platter, they had to do something with it.
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All-In [42170]
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Re: College admittance scandal
Apr 10, 2019, 2:50 PM
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They committed a federal crime, right? So I see how that's a big deal. Also, I have a feeling they're setting an example in this case.
Not that it excuses what they did, but it's time to also start looking hard at colleges, their exuberant costs to line admin's pockets, their secrecy, and the crooked deals they have with loan companies. They're a major cause of issues like this. And that includes our beloved institution.
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All-In [47796]
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President Obama had a great idea that went no where
Apr 10, 2019, 2:58 PM
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President Obama wanted to have the Department of Education create a return on investment metric for majors at all institutions which receive federal funds or to which federal loans, scholarships, or grants applied. If a program wasnt providing a return on investment vis a vis the costs, the program and potentially the school, wouldn't be eligible for federal funds.
I, frankly, think it was one of the best proposals ever to come from Mr. Obama. Unfortunately, his base went apeshit over it and, like anything else he proposed, it was DOA with the GOP.
Can you imagine if this was enacted in good faith? the number of underwater basket weaving programs would sharply diminish and drunk liberal arts professors would have to find a real job.
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All-In [42170]
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What if we tried...
Apr 10, 2019, 3:06 PM
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A simple cap on percentage raises administrators can award each other after taking students and parents to the cleaners?
Looking at you, Clemson admin.
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All-In [47796]
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the problem with caps is they can be arbitrary
Apr 10, 2019, 3:22 PM
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what if some administrator is directly responsible for landing a huge research grant but she is capped to the same extent as the lazy English administrator who spends his days buried in Fourteenth Century English lit.
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CU Guru [1907]
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Re: What if we tried...
Apr 10, 2019, 6:06 PM
[ in reply to What if we tried... ] |
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Thanks for the chuckle! I often find it amusing when folks that champion higher wages and benefits get a bunched drawer when it leads to higher costs.
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All-In [42170]
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Please point me to the post...
Apr 11, 2019, 8:17 AM
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Where I championed higher wages.
It's amazing how clueless many are that college costs have skyrocketed simply to line the pockets of administrators, and Clemson is one of the biggest offenders of this in the nation. It's absurd that Alemda Jacks can go from $200,000 as an interim VP of student affairs to $275,000 in one year when "interim" is removed. And she's not even the worst example at Clemson.
But y'all keep championing this practice until the student loan crisis finally kicks in. That'll be fun for everyone. Well, except all the college admins who created it.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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I don't know Almeda's salary
Apr 11, 2019, 9:56 AM
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but from all accounts, she is a pretty good person, and seemingly, the only person who has been successfully able to do that job. She actually retired and left the university, they hired her replacement, and they didn't make it 6 months. The university basically begged her to come back. Had I been her, I would have demanded that much money, too.
The university did what they needed to do to keep that function from blowing up. Its high profile, and high stress. Some positions are worthwhile to pay good money.
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All-In [42170]
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Re: I don't know Almeda's salary
Apr 11, 2019, 2:44 PM
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Meh. Also called in at the right time to help cover up another fraternity scandal, which she was always good at doing.
I just used her as one example, and I won't debate her character here.
All in all, the increase of Clemson salaries has been atrocious yet on par with the national problem. Over a span from 2012-2017, Clemson admin salaries increased $100 million. Nothing else has risen on this scale since 2004, which is when Barker and Co. started jacking up tuition while seeing more returns to their own salaries.
In some cases, some admins saw a 120 percent salary increase in just a few years. Yes, you read that right.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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Some of them weren't making any money to begin with.
Apr 11, 2019, 2:59 PM
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2 x naught is naught.
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All-In [42170]
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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This is quite the strawman.
Apr 11, 2019, 3:21 PM
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I never said tuition went up because of slashed funding, although I'm sure that had something to do with it.
Clemson has been a construction zone pretty much non-stop for the last 30+ years. When I started Clemson, my Chemistry classes were in Brackett hall, not Hunter. Chem 102 my second semester were some of the first classes held there. Enrollment at that time was close to 12,000 students...undergrad and graduate.
The IT footprint in 1990 comprised of a few computers labs (3? I think), a mainframe (that's still in use BTW) and one lab in which the internet was available. There were TWO laser printers on campus--one in the basement of P&A building, and the other one hid somewhere in Martin hall (I was evener able to use that one as it was always broken). There was no wireless or even wired dorm rooms (or anything else) until the mid-late 90's.
My point? How do you think that kind of stuff got built? It wasn't free, and it required a ton of people to support it, design it, and take care of it all. It still does. The physical cable and infstratucture plant was last rebuilt 11 years ago, and has cat 3 wiring in most dorms--still. How does that work for a "top 20 public research institution"? Simply, it doesn't. The datacenter at Research Park is woefully behind the curve, as is the hardware inside it.
In addition to that, look at how many buildings have been built since then, and enrollment has doubled. Who do you think administers, takes care of and deals with that additional load on facilities and faculty? That scale up isn't a straight line cost curve; its logarithmic.
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All-In [42170]
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And that's quite presumptuous
Apr 11, 2019, 3:36 PM
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To think I was claiming you were making that argument. My whole point has been that one of the main reasons college has reached ridiculous levels is that admins have started padding their salaries. It isn't the professors or slashed funding or anything else. That includes the infrastructure cost and upkeep.
The salary jumps have been absurd. Do the research yourself if you don't believe it. Didn't Pres. Barker also invent an unnecessary admin position to give to a family member one year?
Name one thing in America that has increased at a higher percentage rate than college tuition over the past 30 years. And wouldn't you know it? The admin salaries are the only thing in college that have risen with it.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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Not really; that was kind of the point of the article
Apr 11, 2019, 3:52 PM
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The author sums it up pretty well in the last paragraph.
You believe what you like; you will anyway. I'm not saying that colleges haven't gone up ridiculously since the 80's; But also I know what I saw and lived.
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All-In [42170]
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So, we're going...
Apr 11, 2019, 4:05 PM
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Your anecdotal vs. my numerical data provided by Clemson itself?
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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Hey I don't want to twist your words.
Apr 11, 2019, 4:27 PM
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Whatever you want to think, you will. I won't change your mind, because you know actually having working experience in what you are talking about is only "anecdotal".
Honestly, I don't care enough to look any statistics up. I saw what is going on there. I'm sorry you don't like that Clemson has grown into a major research institution. I don't particularly like the Wynkoop lined streets either. But if Clemson wants to be listed in that context, and they BOD says they do, its going to cost money to hire the caliber of people necessary to get them there.
You'll really hate this: IMO, a majority of the working population of Clemson university needs a 10-30% pay increase to get them close to the pay they'd receive if they worked in the private sector. I might have stuck around for that.
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All-In [42170]
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Re: Hey I don't want to twist your words.
Apr 11, 2019, 4:31 PM
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Well, yeah, you're twisting my words, but not a shock.
I'm sorry you don't like that Clemson has grown into a major research institution.
Now THAT'S a strawmen. And a childish one. Dude. The research increase at Clemson isn't what's contributing to the rise of tuition costs. It's not contributing to that ANYWHERE.
I don't particularly like the Wynkoop lined streets either.
I wasn't really going there, but if we want to include him, well, let's throw in that dirty Bridge Program/apartment deal we had with him.
But if Clemson wants to be listed in that context, and they BOD says they do, its going to cost money to hire the caliber of people necessary to get them there.
Again, that's not what's causing the increase. Watch over the summer. The BOT will vote in a new tuition hike. USC will copy us. Then upper level admins will get raises. Happens every year.
BTW, Clemson kicked ### at research before the hike, too.
You'll really hate this: IMO, a majority of the working population of Clemson university needs a 10-30% pay increase to get them close to the pay they'd receive if they worked in the private sector. I might have stuck around for that.
No, actually, I don't hate that idea. I think most of the mid level and lower level employees there deserve raises. But that's not where the money is going. Shocker.
Cheers to your word twisting.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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"word twisting". lulz.
Apr 12, 2019, 10:54 AM
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My wife uses this same type argument with "gaslighting". Any time I disagree with her, I'm "gaslighting" her.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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Actually, most Clemson admins don't make much
Apr 11, 2019, 9:52 AM
[ in reply to What if we tried... ] |
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money. Some higher ups do, but that's very limited. If you compared them to the private sector positions they'd be underpaid. I think you are thinking from 10-15 years ago, but things have changed there now. I'm not talking about the athletic department because they are funded by completely separate budgets.
For the most part, the older (hired more than say 7 years ago), general work force is pretty demotivated because most don't make much money, but have pretty much lifetime gigs unless they really screw up. Their COLA wages are almost non existent, and someone can go for years without a raise. Oddly to complement that, they have no real university wide yearly performance reviews to measure employee performance.
Everyone who is hired now and makes more than about >$50K/year is now a "time limited" employee, basically meaning that they can be canned at anytime, for any reason. And they are. The insurance is more expensive than comparative private industry (and isn't that great anyway), and you get less match in your 401K. They do offer a set percentage that retirement will grow (4% I think) which works good during down years, but one would hope that the good would outweigh the bad and not make that a great choice. Given those choices, there isn't much motivation for someone to work for the university unless they just really want to. Its really pretty amazing they have the caliber (in some departments) of people they do.
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All-In [42170]
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Re: Actually, most Clemson admins don't make much
Apr 11, 2019, 2:46 PM
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Sorry, man, but I researched this extensively a few years ago using Clemson's own self-reported numbers. Your every day admin may make normal salary, but the higher level folks have seen their salaries skyrocket. Again, a $100 million increase in just five years.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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It may have been more than a few years ago you looked into
Apr 11, 2019, 3:02 PM
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it.
I worked there a few years ago and saw it first hand. I took a pretty sizable pay cut to work there, just because I wanted to work there (I thought), and was one of the higher paid in the dept--like making more money than those who had been there 20 years kind of thing.
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All-In [42170]
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Re: It may have been more than a few years ago you looked into
Apr 11, 2019, 3:37 PM
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I researched this in 2016-17. Thanks.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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Ok, well then you must know.
Apr 11, 2019, 3:57 PM
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Everyone who is director level and above is getting rich! Off the backs of poor Clemson students! The secret is out!!
Thats pretty laughable, actually.
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All-In [42170]
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In 2004...
Apr 11, 2019, 4:10 PM
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Clemson's chief financial officer stood up to Barker over the spike in tuition costs we were about to implement for our cooked top 20 status. He was told to shut up and comply, then he was soon shown the door. His successor, who played ball, saw his salary go from about $110k a year to around $340k a year in just a few years. That's all in Clemson's reported data on salaries, and that's par for what has happened since 2004.
You can laugh all you want, but tuition has skyrocketed well above the national average at Clemson (I'll post a graph if you like) since 2004 while admin salaries have also soared.
I challenge you to provide statistical evidence otherwise rather than your usual anecdotal responses.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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sorry..15 years later***
Apr 11, 2019, 4:20 PM
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All-In [42170]
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Re: Thats pretty amazing.
Apr 11, 2019, 4:27 PM
[ in reply to Thats pretty amazing. ] |
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But he's not in the private sector. He's in the public one at one of the state's top two public universities (FYI, the Cooters are just as guilty at this #### as we are).
So yes. Pay less if we must to alleviate student tuition costs. It's absurd now. You and I would pay have paid less as out of state students when we went to school as opposed to being an in-state student today. And no, that's not fitting the cost of inflation.
College across the board is becoming unaffordable for students, and that's a bad unregulated partnership of greedy upper level administrators and loan companies (coupled with K-12 schools insisting that kids have to go to college or else). Throw in some royal federal government screw ups along the way.
We'll continue down that road at our nation's own financial peril.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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You are really dramatic***
Apr 12, 2019, 10:55 AM
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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I was a peed off that they defrauded student who...
Apr 10, 2019, 4:19 PM
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spent time working to get into those prestigious colleges. If you consider the value of a USC or Ivy education as opposed to one lesser the amount of money lost by the students who didn't get in because of the scam it's significant.
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Lot o points [155929]
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Like a wise older boss once told me......
Apr 10, 2019, 4:26 PM
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"If a country club was easy and cheap to get into, nobody would join."
You're spot on---it's a club...once you're in, you're in, but cottdang is it tough to get in.
I'm watching young Obed bust it in a way I never did in high school in an attempt to maximize his options when he graduates...the kid's work ethic and long term view of things amaze me, and I have to say it does pizzz me off when you see these dumb effing dunces getting in because of a big check and a bunch of lies.
I don't mind highly competitive situations with few winners and ample losers, but I do get angry when merit is all but removed as a judging criterion.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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We vote for a president in a popularity contest that is
Apr 11, 2019, 9:59 AM
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backed up with whomever has the most money.
It sounds like college admissions isn't much different, really.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Typically that's true but Hilldog doubled Trump's spending.
Apr 11, 2019, 7:39 PM
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If my old mind is remembering correctly she had a billion bucks to spend.
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