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Replies: 45
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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Coach Brownell only playing 6 guys any significant minutes
Nov 21, 2016, 9:27 AM
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the last two games even though he has had 8 and 9 to choose from. No Robertin last night and Hudson only 2 minutes and Spencer only 1. Doesn't appear to be a shortage of players, just a shortage of trust to play the ones he has developed. Mitchell may or may not be a better distributor than Holmes, but he isn't a scorer, so I wouldn't expect much of any change when he returns. Thomas better be a heck of scorer because we need somebody that can get some easy high percentage baskets, rebound and play defense when our perimeter defense breaks down.
Looks like how Holmes, Grantham and Devoe go will determine how this team goes. They are shooting too many threes and missing and not running the offense through Blossomgame. Djitte needs to touch the ball more. We don't really have anybody that can create his own shot. Holmes with only 1 assist last night? He can really disappear against decent guards. Grantham and Devoe too quick to jack the threes before Blossomgame has touched the ball
Once again, we aren't defending the three point line well at all giving up 43% and 50% from long range in the last two games. We've been outrebounded in every game but the Oklahoma loss last night.
Last night is a game that we should win if we are a better team than last year and want to get to the NCAA Tournament. I was surprised at the lack of want to from the team last night given the sense of urgency they should be feeling this year. Hopefully, this is just the slow start that Brownell teams are prone to.
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CU Medallion [67848]
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Re: Coach Brownell only playing 6 guys any significant minutes
Nov 21, 2016, 9:30 AM
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Should win? I think they were final 4 last year and we've got a bunch of new guys learning to play together. I'd love to win but should is a little much
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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they lost their 3 best players from last year.
Nov 21, 2016, 9:39 AM
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So clearly not even close to the same team.
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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They scored 59 in regulation losing to Northern Iowa Friday
Nov 21, 2016, 9:41 AM
[ in reply to Re: Coach Brownell only playing 6 guys any significant minutes ] |
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and they lost their 3 best players from last year who started every game for three straight years with two NBA draft picks and a free agent. Basketball teams only have 5 on the floor at once, so losing 3 to the NBA is a huge loss.
If we are going to make The Tournament in year 7, we need to start winning these kinds of games. No more excuses for coming close and falling short.
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Orange Blooded [4559]
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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Oklahoma's point guard had not scored in the first half of
Nov 21, 2016, 9:54 AM
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the first two tournament games. He scored 7 and had 4 assists in the first half of ours. He finished with 21 points and 9 assists, 3 steals and 5 rebounds. Holmes, meanwhile, finished with 6 points, 1 assist, 1 rebound and 1 steal in 26 minutes of play.
We need more consistent play on both ends of the floor from our point guard.
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110%er [5513]
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Brownells gonna brownell
Nov 21, 2016, 9:58 AM
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Orange Blooded [2519]
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Last night was vintage Clemson bball under Brownell
Nov 21, 2016, 10:12 AM
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sloppy play with no purpose gets us behind by a bunch, followed by a furious comeback that shows what a focused bunch can do, only to fall just short.
lather, rinse, repeat.
this team is capable of making the tourney, but I ain't holding my breath.
IMO, Brownell is the Tommy Bowden of basketball.
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Team Captain [453]
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My favorite play
Nov 21, 2016, 10:43 AM
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Is pass the ball around the perimeter for 27 seconds then jack up some garbage prayer shot. We run that one a lot.
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: My favorite play
Nov 21, 2016, 10:50 AM
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Show me a single time where that happened last night. Learn something about basketball or just stick to football.
Also, was last night the first game you've watched? Probably.
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Team Captain [453]
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4th game I've seen this year
Nov 21, 2016, 11:04 AM
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I was actually impressed with the UGA performance and how well they handled the foul trouble and had some optimism that robertin would add some size that we desperately need. Djitte has become a better player than I would have imagined and was also impressed we didn't have to rely on Blossomgame to score 30. That being said I'm not sure how good of a UGA team that was.
As for this tourney we out athleted Davidson and probably caught a break they they had an off shooting game, though I think we did bother a lot of their shots so I'll give credit there. But when we've played teams with equal talent, especially on the perimeter, we don't even look close to competing at the guard spot.
And yes, I saw that "play" more often in the Xavier game and attributed it to their good guard play, but it happened at least once yesterday as well so maybe I did exaggerate, but the fact is we've played an NCAA team in Xavier and we were handled (not as close as the 6 points indicated) and played what looks like an NIT team and were also handled.
If you want to keep thinking Brownell is going to take us somewhere, and if it happens this year I'll eat crow, but in 6 years it's the same thing over and over again. Close but no results outside of one months worth of great wins last year.
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CU Guru [1241]
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Re: 4th game I've seen this year
Nov 21, 2016, 11:06 AM
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so we "caught a break when davidson had an off shooting night" that leads to 2 questons... 1) did we have anything to do with that.. and 2) did Okla catch a break with us having an "off night shooting"?
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Team Captain [453]
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Not sure
Nov 21, 2016, 11:21 AM
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Small sample size but we shoot 42% from the floor and 33% from behind the arc for the season. We did shoot substantially worse from the floor yesterday but not from behind the arc. So maybe we were "off" but it was the shots in the paint we were missing, not the threes.
Look I'm sure legs had something to do with this, but we chose to play 6 players. There was a 7th available who has logged gametime and Oklahoma played the same schedule we did so I have a hard time with excuses at this point. 6+ years in and I continue to see a team that can be offensively inept at times and it's just frustrating to watch.
Maybe it gets better when the missing players get into the rotation, but again, 6+ years of this will numb your optimism.
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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Yes. Demontez Stitt is the last good/true point guard we
Nov 21, 2016, 11:21 AM
[ in reply to 4th game I've seen this year ] |
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have had.
Our guard play against teams with decent guards has been lacking.
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CU Medallion [64591]
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Orange Blooded [4418]
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the team might look a lot different
Nov 21, 2016, 10:33 AM
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once Mitchell and Thomas are playing
i was surprised at the lack of minutes for Spencer
no doubt all the minutes for the starters took a toll last night
and i disagree with We don't really have anybody that can create his own shot JB, Devoe, and especially Reed have shown they can create scoring chances
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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Mitchell's not really a scorer, so not sure he makes much
Nov 21, 2016, 10:56 AM
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of an impact on the team's offensive performance. He could be an improvement on defense. Thomas may help give Djitte a rest, but Sidy is one of our two best players so far this year. Not sure we get better by sitting him down and I doubt they'll play much together.
Devoe is too slow to create his own shots. Reed plays a bit out of control and turns it over too much, but does show some potential to get himself some open shots. JB struggled against Blueitt finding room for his shot and has been slow to get involved offensively so far this year. Grantham, Devoe, Reed and Holmes need to understand that the offense has to run through JB and their shots should flow more from the openings JB(and some inside out with Djitte) creates for them.
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Orange Blooded [4418]
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really? a different starting point guard
Nov 21, 2016, 11:23 AM
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wouldn't have much impact on the team's offense?
Mitchell is supposed to be a pass-first guy, and a very good passer
and i think Thomas and Sidy will play together a lot
Devoe has had some success so far taking it to the basket - but he's also looked bad trying to do so.
no doubt he's best as a spot-up shooter, and as we've seen, if he gets hot, he can change a game
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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Mitchell to start ahead of Holmes at the point?
Nov 21, 2016, 11:29 AM
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Hmmmm. That would be interesting given his lack of offense. Move Holmes to two guard? That's a defensive liability and Holmes struggles to get anything but a set shot off.
Coach Brownell, who watches the team in practice every day, warned against expecting too much from the transfers.
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: Mitchell to start ahead of Holmes at the point?
Nov 21, 2016, 11:53 AM
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The exhibition lineup was Mitchell at PG with Holmes playing off the ball. They will still match up Holmes with the smallest guard on defense, because he's a good on-ball defender. And playing him off the ball lets him shoot it more.
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Orange Blooded [4418]
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Legend [19694]
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Huh? He's talked up the transfers as key
Nov 21, 2016, 1:59 PM
[ in reply to Mitchell to start ahead of Holmes at the point? ] |
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this year. You're whining about not playing Legend Robertin, Scott Spencer and a guy who has been suspended? If we were playing our normal early season cupcakes you'd have seen more of Robertin and Spencer, instead we've played 4 quality teams to open up for the first time in my memory of 40 years following Clemson basketball. They'll get their time to get their feet wet these next 5 games.
And Mitchell is the starting PG, did you pay attention to nothing in the preseason? God forbid a former top 100 recruit improve on a respectable freshman year over the last season sitting out?
We all know where you stand. How about we let the season play out with a full deck before we fire Brownell
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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Like every year for the last 20, I'll be here all season
Nov 21, 2016, 2:18 PM
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to comment on what I'm seeing out of the basketball team. I'm a Clemson graduate and fan and I watch all the games. I'm not going anywhere. You can continue to whine about it like you always do. We know where you stand. You're more of a Brownell sycophant than a Clemson fan and tend to take any deserved, but mildly critical comments personally.
It's a question of mind over matter. I don't mind cause you don't matter.
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Legend [19694]
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No, you're whining about a team playing three players short
Nov 21, 2016, 2:51 PM
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losing to a top 10 team and another projected to make the tourney. Where exactly did he downplay the transfers this year? Losing your starting point guard a week before the season starts makes you better I suppose? Brownell has this year. I've said that. But I'm giving him the whole year with all his bullets. You're beating the same drum you always have.
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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Excuses sound best to the person who is making them.
Nov 21, 2016, 3:35 PM
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We have some of the same issues we had last year and the year before. As we move through the season, you would like to see us improve in those areas if we are to contend for a spot in The Tournament. The Xavier game was a game you would have wanted to compete better in if we are in fact an improved team. The Oklahoma game was a game we should have won if we are an improved team over last year. It's silly to pretend that there should be no criticism of the team's performance after two straight losses prior to the end of his seventh season and that, if there is, to pretend it is indicative of wanting to get rid of the coach. I guess that makes a nice strawman if you need one.
Coach Brownell's team needs to show improvement this year and get to the tournament or he won't be back. The same old excuses aren't going to buy him another year.
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Legend [19694]
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Not sure what you don't get about short handed
Nov 21, 2016, 3:49 PM
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we lost by 6 to Xavier, had it within 3 with less than 4 minutes left. How much closer should it have been.
Being short handed, minus two guys who will be major contributors, isn't an excuse, it's the reality right now. We have no depth minus those guys, and still played a top 10 team to within 6.
If we're not a tourney team this year then we have a decision, but nothing I've seen so far this year says we aren't.
Better on offense even without those guys
You did notice we out rebounded OK by 14
Mitchell has the length and quickness we need on the perimeter for defense and is a pure PG
Thomas adds the extra big we need
By Bama when we'll need everyone we'll be full strength and with a 9-3/10-2 OOC in excellent position for a tourney run
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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Oklahoma is a game we should have won and we didn't.
Nov 21, 2016, 4:40 PM
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So far, that's one that we should have won that we didn't and no wins that we should have lost, but won. Hopefully, that will change, but it is what it is thus far. Watched the whole Xavier game and the Oklahoma game. It never felt like we had a chance in that one. Similar feel to Oklahoma game. Didn't get the moral victory feeling you got from either of those losses.
I wouldn't count a transfer not being eligible in year 7 as being short handed. It's the path the coach chose. Just like the last two years when we needed players to make us a better team, we signed transfers that couldn't help us for another year and our performance suffered while we waited, putting all of our eggs into this year's basket. Reed looks like he has some potential for streaky shooting, but he's not a difference maker and he came in with more acclaim than Mitchell. I hope Mitchell and Thomas make us a MUCH better team, but I wouldn't bet the farm on a dramatic improvement at this point.
Yes, I noticed we outrebounded Oklahoma in a loss. As I pointed out, it's the only time we have in four games. I don't see that as a good thing or different from last year when we didn't make the tournament. I hope it changes, but the possibility remains that we aren't a particularly good rebounding team.
These games in the first half of the season count too. We need to win them so we aren't desperate for wins come the ACC schedule like we have been recently.
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Legend [19694]
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We'll see how it plays out
Nov 21, 2016, 5:10 PM
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Mitchell had far more acclaim out of high school and Reed has the tougher adjustment stepping up in competition. Thomas only misses 8-9 games.
They took transfers because they were the best players we could get. Why settle for lesser guys because they play in high school. Our HS recruiting had slipped under OP as the vaunted 2009 class was a bust and when he left he only had one guy committed in Thornton who wound up being decent finally as a 5th year senior. Besides, transfers are a recruiting reality now. Why not get involved with them? Everyone else is.
If ratings can be a decent gauge, and 2009 tells us to take them with a grain of salt, this years incoming class is by far his best. Top 20 in the nation to this point. That ties in to the new facilities.
Those things are clearly important, or else we wouldn't be pouring money still in to a top 5 football program. We're finally competitive there in basketball. The early returns are encouraging
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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What are you reading?
Nov 21, 2016, 2:38 PM
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Where did I say that?
Did you mean Mitchell?
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All-In [48078]
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Reed seems to playa little out of control..
Nov 24, 2016, 9:59 AM
[ in reply to the team might look a lot different ] |
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so far this season. He has potential, but he forces too many shots.
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Team Captain [453]
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The flaw in your logic
Nov 21, 2016, 10:42 AM
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is expecting a better year. History suggests otherwise...
2010–11 Clemson 22–12 9–7 T–4th NCAA Second Round
2011–12 Clemson 16–15 8–8 7th
2012–13 Clemson 13–18 5–13 11th
2013–14 Clemson 23–13 10–8 6th NIT Semifinals
2014–15 Clemson 16–15 8–10 T–9th
2015–16 Clemson 17–14 10–8 T–7th
Maybe 19 - 20 wins, maybe NIT, hopefully new coach.
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: Coach Brownell only playing 6 guys any significant minutes
Nov 21, 2016, 10:49 AM
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Are you writing this based off of one game?
Good grief, dude.
We have no one who can create his own shot? JB scored 22 last night by essentially creating his shot every time. Sidy touched the ball plenty, he played 40 minutes and had a huge impact on the game.
Spencer played a lot this weekend, but is a freshman. So no, he hasn't been developed yet. But of course that's Brownell's fault. Also, out starting PG and potentially best guard on the team is hurt, but probably returning Friday. So he missed 4 games, Brownell's fault again?
It's ridiculous the generalizations you'll make that are the most negative things I've ever heard. Mitchell won't make a difference? That's insane, he's a Day 1 starter. And even if he wasn't better player, that's more depth which is something else you're whining about.
Holmes disappears against good guards? Yep sure disappeared against JJ Frazier, first team All-SEC.
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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I've watched every game so far, plus all last year, the year
Nov 21, 2016, 11:16 AM
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before that, the year before that, and so on and so forth. I'm pointing out what I see and how it compares to our concerns coming into the year - specifically that we don't defend the three well and we don't shoot it well consistently and we don't rebound well. Our offense may have improved somewhat, but our defense may not have. We need to improve on those things in order to make the NCAA Tournament.
Read the post again. You missed a key point. Grantham and Devoe are shooting the three ball too quickly and not in the flow of the offense. Get the ball to Blossomgame first and toss it inside to Djitte before you go jacking up the quick three. Quick three point shots from streaky shooters who are missing is not the answer.
Mitchell is the best guard on the team? That seems very unlikely given what he did at Vanderbilt with high minutes. He's not a scorer. Hopefully, he is a good defender because we do struggle on defense on the perimeter. That's not something new. It's been steadily declining for several years now. We don't rebound well either. That's not new either.
We have played 4 games and lost 2. We are seeing some potential for improvement, but the last two losses won't help get us to the tournament. The last one in particular, felt all too familiar. We have to start winning those games if we are going to see the Tournament after this season. I would have expected a greater sense of urgency from our guys and a better performance last night
We have sacrificed the last two years in building towards this year. We have to make the tournament this year.
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: I've watched every game so far, plus all last year, the year
Nov 21, 2016, 11:51 AM
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I apologize for being quick-tempered.
I agree, rebounding is a big concern. Elijah Thomas can't come quickly enough.
Perimeter defense was never ever a concern until last year when we started guards that were 5'10 (Roper, I don't care what he was listed at. He was no taller than 5'10) and 6'0 (Holmes). We have taller guards, played really good guards against UGA (even without Mitchell), and did very well. Limited Frazier.
I agree, we have to make the tournament. I just don't understand what anyone could've taken from this weekend that makes you think we won't. Especially considering the Georgia win. Still haven't had Mitchell's impact either. I'm optimistic.
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All-In [48078]
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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Also, Frazier is a 5-10 155 pound guard.
Nov 21, 2016, 11:35 AM
[ in reply to Re: Coach Brownell only playing 6 guys any significant minutes ] |
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As I have said many times before, Holmes plays well against smaller weaker guards but struggles against guys his size or bigger.
So far this year, that has continued to hold true.
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CU Guru [1271]
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DeVoe being DeVoe
Nov 21, 2016, 11:24 AM
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1-11 from the field.
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: DeVoe being DeVoe
Nov 21, 2016, 11:52 AM
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He's averaging double figures and has been very consistent. Don't jump in with an opinion based on one box score.
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MVP [508]
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Re: Coach Brownell only playing 6 guys any significant minutes
Nov 21, 2016, 12:15 PM
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You gotta play consistently 9-10 players each game now in this early season, otherwise you will not have them ready for ACC action and injuries once the real season begins....
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Legend [19694]
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Have you considered the schedule?
Nov 21, 2016, 2:05 PM
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Name the last time we opened with 4 straight quality teams instead of cupcakes. They'll get their feet wet the next 5 games, but Spencer and Robertin are likely the 10th and 11th guys this year. Maybe Spencer edges ahead of Hudson as he gains experience. We're basically going to have a rotation of 8 guys, which is plenty, once Mitchell and Thomas are in the line up, with Hudson, Spencer and Robertin as occasional, situational subs
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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let's see, how many negative points about Brownell?
Nov 21, 2016, 2:05 PM
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- lack of trust, won't play players.
- doesn't have the right PG.
- not coaching offense to go through JB, shooting too many 3's.
- not coaching the 3-pt line D.
- not coaching the rebounding.
- not bringing the urgency, historically bad Brownell start.
Did I get it all Coach Chuck? Starting early this year aren't we....
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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Why do you even bother to respond?
Nov 21, 2016, 2:37 PM
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You don't add anything to the discussion. You don't make any valid points. You just take everything personally and get your feelings hurt. It could be a long season for such a fragile fellow.
Coaching is not the problem with our perimeter defense and rebounding. Not sure where you got that. That's recruiting. I don't think Coach B is coaching them to jack up the quick threes without getting it to Blossomgame. At least, I hope not.
Why is your pulse so low after 7 years on Tigernet?
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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I take nothing personally... just trying to catalogue your
Nov 21, 2016, 4:04 PM
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complaints this year about Brownell.
You certainly were complaining last year.
As it happens, I believe they're all jacking too many 3's as well;
this - just like last year - is not a "jump shoot-to win" team;
but unlike you apparently I do believe it is coaching.
JB and especially DG need start styling themselves as slashers instead of jump shooters.
Gabe needs to be put on a leash - if the ball doesn't make the paint twice, then he can't shoot.
Sidy is not Nnoko, and I don't see running the offense through him like we could have done if
the refs had let Nnoko play.
But I, unlike everyone else, don't believe that running the offense through JB is the answer.
He goes through spells when he's much too passive, and unlike the great scorers, he's not a natural jump shooter when the drive isn't there.
he's got a nice touch, but if you want to see a natural go back and watch the tape on David Thompson.
now there was a natural pull-up jump shooter.
Mostly though this team DOES need a sense of urgency - and from the moment the ball goes up.
They're playing as if they think possessions are free
when in reality it is the team that does the most with every possession that wins.
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Hall of Famer [22392]
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Well, I'll be darned. We do agree on
Nov 21, 2016, 4:44 PM
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most of the things I mentioned.
Who'd a thunk it.
Does that make you a whiner too or just a Clemson basketball fan?
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110%er [6138]
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Replies: 45
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