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110%er [7013]
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Some things never change -
Oct 20, 2014, 9:57 AM
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A quote from an 1899 book by Winston Churchill, "The River War," in which he describes Muslims he apparently observed during Kitchener's campaign in the Sudan:
"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome."
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CU Medallion [56105]
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Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, lol***
Oct 20, 2014, 10:06 AM
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110%er [7013]
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- the science against which it had vainly struggled***
Oct 20, 2014, 10:17 AM
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CU Medallion [56105]
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And it's still vainly struggling.***
Oct 20, 2014, 10:40 AM
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110%er [7013]
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yep.***
Oct 20, 2014, 11:11 AM
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All-In [28802]
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All-In [34113]
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Agreed. What's this "vainly" crap?***
Oct 20, 2014, 1:17 PM
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All-TigerNet [14533]
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All-In [28802]
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He's referring to a lot of things
Oct 20, 2014, 12:34 PM
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But, mostly, what he means is that Western Civilization learned to use science to conquer the world and to make their lives easier. Of course, he's wrong that Christianity ever opposed the use of science to make our world better. What Christianity has always opposed is the ideologization of science- the kind of thing that makes people want to cheer for science and set it up in opposition to religion, as if there were a scientific team and an anti- scientific team.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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#Ifuckinglovescience
Oct 20, 2014, 12:45 PM
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People who routinely post stuff from there seem to be the exact people you're referencing.
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All-In [28802]
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Such a strange thing to "*uckinglove"***
Oct 20, 2014, 12:57 PM
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All-In [34113]
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Galileo ####### loved it so much that he was
Oct 20, 2014, 1:22 PM
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willing to be branded a heretic by the Church.
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All-In [28802]
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#dontknowmuchabouthistory
Oct 20, 2014, 5:41 PM
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"Defining myth as just “a claim that is false,” editor Numbers and 24 other scholars debunk 25 falsehoods about science and religion. The most familiar—that the church imprisoned and tortured Galileo, that medieval Islam was hostile to science, that medieval Christians thought the earth was flat, that the church fought against anesthesia—have long been discredited, yet the briefs on them so admirably distill their history that Wikipedia should swipe them. Others—that the church suppressed science, prohibited dissection, and martyred Giordano Bruno for his scientific work—still have their propagandists. Some remain quite lively, such as that Christianity birthed modern science (see Rodney Stark’s For the Glory of God, 2003), that intelligent design challenges evolution scientifically, and that creationism is a strictly American phenomenon. Many are known primarily, perhaps, to specialists, and one or two may startle those who thought themselves in the know about such figures as Descartes and Newton. The pieces on all 25 have been written and edited for accessibility, making the book excellent for ready reference as well as recreational reading. --Ray Olson
http://www.amazon.com/Galileo-Other-Myths-Science-Religion/dp/0674033272
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All-In [34113]
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Since I never said anyone imprisoned or tortured Gallieo...
Oct 20, 2014, 5:53 PM
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...I'm gonna have to go ahead and ask you WTF the heck you're talking about.
I said the church branded him a heretic. If you dispute that, let's talk.
And let us know if Wikipedia is lying about this:Pope Paul V instructed Cardinal Bellarmine to deliver this finding to Galileo, and to order him to abandon the Copernican opinions. On February 26, Galileo was called to Bellarmine's residence and ordered…to abstain completely from teaching or defending this doctrine and opinion or from discussing it... to abandon completely... the opinion that the sun stands still at the center of the world and the earth moves, and henceforth not to hold, teach, or defend it in any way whatever, either orally or in writing. — The Inquisition's injunction against Galileo, 1616.[60]
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All-In [28802]
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But he wasn't labeled a heretic for his love of science...
Oct 20, 2014, 6:08 PM
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he was labeled a heretic for claiming to reinterpret scripture according to an unproven theory. The best evidence he could offer was an incorrect theory about the rotation of the Earth causing the tides. The whole mess about Galileo being a brave crusader for science agains the Church is simply inaccurate.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: But he wasn't labeled a heretic for his love of science...
Oct 20, 2014, 6:56 PM
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This is an interesting topic. I had never looked much into it.
The actual condemnation of Galileo is within this PDF:
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1402/1402.6168.pdf
It actually doesn't talk about Galileo's efforts to reinterpret scripture, but rather the belief in a heliocentric universe.
But, even if you were right, and he were actually labeled a heretic for interpreting the Bible differently, that's still a great example of the relationship between religion and science. And it doesn't matter that Galileo's science did not always lead him to the right answer. The bottom line is that the Church was hanging onto the geocentric model based on the Bible, and Galileo was arriving at different conclusions based on science.
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Hall of Famer [24805]
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Yep... He just made your argument for you.***
Oct 21, 2014, 5:01 AM
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Heisman Winner [111630]
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Re: #Ifuckinglovescience
Oct 20, 2014, 5:52 PM
[ in reply to #Ifuckinglovescience ] |
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yet you are one of the most outwardly anti science posters in this forum.
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110%er [7013]
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All-In [28802]
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no, it's superscientific
Oct 20, 2014, 5:55 PM
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Sort of like how people say God is supernatural. Modern empirical science really doesn't make claims about the supernatural since it limits itself by making materialistic assumptions (which it never seeks to prove, but which allow it to have predictive power). The mistake that a lot of people make is to rule out everything outside of science's materialistic assumptions, as if those assumptions were scientific facts and not tools to make science more powerful. Ideologizing science in that way is, really, non- scientific on its face.
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Heisman Winner [111630]
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Re: no, it's superscientific
Oct 20, 2014, 6:03 PM
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this reads like a dog chasing its tail
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All-In [34113]
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So... how do we use superscience to learn about miracles?***
Oct 20, 2014, 6:58 PM
[ in reply to no, it's superscientific ] |
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Orange Blooded [4747]
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Re: no, it's superscientific
Oct 20, 2014, 8:41 PM
[ in reply to no, it's superscientific ] |
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Is there a Superscientific Method by which we can explore the supernatural?
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Bro, do you not watch Ghost Hunter or Finding Bigfoot?***
Oct 20, 2014, 8:42 PM
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Hall of Famer [24805]
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Just waiting on the aliens to return and show us.... That's
Oct 21, 2014, 5:06 AM
[ in reply to Re: no, it's superscientific ] |
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when science and religion will suddenly merge...
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