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Lot o points [155944]
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All-In [31907]
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doesn't seem they even have to prove/show legal status....
Jul 18, 2018, 11:40 AM
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unbelievable.
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110%er [6101]
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Heisman Winner [111631]
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Re: Can someone explain to me how this isn't hypocritical?
Jul 18, 2018, 11:45 AM
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are you trying to compare the SF board of education election to that of the office of president, just so we are clear.
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All-In [31907]
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I think he's comparing...
Jul 18, 2018, 11:48 AM
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being upset with a foreigner meddling in our election on one hand and then allowing illegal aliens to vote on the other.
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Heisman Winner [111631]
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Re: I think he's comparing...
Jul 18, 2018, 11:51 AM
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I do not see it as meddling when you are asking them to vote, and of course people living in this country undocumented are hardly foreign adversaries. And seeing as how their kids attend our public schools, and they pay taxes, it would only seem fair to allow them to vote for the board of education.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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"and of course people living in this country undocumented
Jul 18, 2018, 11:53 AM
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are hardly foreign adversaries"
How would you know that?
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Heisman Winner [111631]
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for the sake of time
Jul 18, 2018, 11:58 AM
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let's just assume that I am right when I say that undocumented people living and working in this country are not intent on tearing down our democracy any more than people born here legally.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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lol..I'm going to use that for anything I may say
Jul 18, 2018, 12:00 PM
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anything that you don't agree with.
"For the sake of time, lets just assume I'm correct, because I say so".
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: lol..I'm going to use that for anything I may say
Jul 18, 2018, 12:03 PM
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He's basically saying the sky is blue.
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Heisman Winner [111631]
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Re: lol..I'm going to use that for anything I may say
Jul 18, 2018, 12:05 PM
[ in reply to lol..I'm going to use that for anything I may say ] |
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go for it, but it does not stand up to nonsensical arguments like undocumented immigrants living in this country are intent on destroying our democracy.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Right, they're all women and children who are aspiring
Jul 18, 2018, 12:22 PM
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doctors, lawyers, teachers, and other noble professions. All of which only have the best interests of America and her citizens in mind.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Heisman Winner [111631]
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Re: Why is it "nonsensical"?
Jul 18, 2018, 5:21 PM
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I am going to use basic law of averages and go on the premise that most people to do not #### where they sleep.
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Legend [17781]
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SF example is transparent; Russia not so much
Jul 18, 2018, 12:26 PM
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SF issue being covered by the press so local citizenry knows about it. Measure has been repeatedly voted upon - this isn't shocking to anyone locally.
Russia - not transparent, etc. etc. If in 2016 there were billboards and commercials with "paid for by the Kremlin Committee to elect Trump" then I'd have less of a problem with Russia. I'd still have a problem with it - but at least you would know the source of the funding/etc.
And sure, I guess there is a chance Soros is behind the beachhead in SF for the non-citizen vote normalization.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Can someone explain to me how this isn't hypocritical?
Jul 18, 2018, 1:04 PM
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It's crazy. Thank God we don't live by San Francisco values.
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Legend [18026]
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This is the argument Tucker Carlson made the other night...
Jul 18, 2018, 4:51 PM
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“I don’t think Russia is our close friend or anything like that. I think of course they’re trying to interfere in our affairs. They have for a long time. Many countries do, some more successfully than Russia.”
“Like Mexico, which is routinely interfering in our elections by packing our electorate,” he continued, with laughter in the background. “So those are all concerns. I just don’t understand why we need to believe that Russia is the primary issue of American political life.”
and then coincidentally, you somehow find this story from a San Francisco local news affiliate and come up with a very similar argument? Should we expect more talking points like this coming from the right trying to reconnect to the immigration "threat?"
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Lot o points [155944]
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I’ve watched Tucker Carlson once......
Jul 18, 2018, 5:38 PM
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And I read it on flipboard so I found the easiest link to post. The point was my own.
I’ll take it that your “attack the messenger” reply means you can’t explain it. At least others attempted.
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Legend [18026]
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Never did I 'attack the messenger'
Jul 18, 2018, 6:11 PM
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I think you meant to say, "attack the message" which is probably closer to the truth. I'm sorry if I triggered you with my response. I simply wanted to point out that this is an interesting tactic to try and connect the Russian issue with the immigration issue.
What would you like me to explain? San Francisco is allowing non-citizens to vote for school board members but this doesn't include state or federal elections so it's incredibly localized and the voters will be flagged as "non-citizen" voters and have to be residents of the city as well as parents of children that go to the schools. I would assume that many of these non-citizens are here on green cards and not presumably "illegal." If a person has a child and pays their taxes I can see an argument for allowing them a vote on who is in charge of educating their child.
In any case, I'm not sure how this is comparable to what your point was about people being riled up about citizens of another country (Russia) interfering in our election process. Maybe I'm missing it though (wouldn't be the first time).
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Lot o points [155944]
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ummmm, you ignored the gist of my message and
Jul 18, 2018, 6:32 PM
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Pretty much accused me of regurgitating spoonfed, unoriginal right wing messaging. I can now see how that could have easily also been intended to be complimenting the messenger while simultaneously having a meaningful topical discussion. Mea culpa.
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Legend [18026]
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lol, no, I wasn't trying to compliment you either
Jul 18, 2018, 7:17 PM
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just not "attack" you, but I guess if looking at things from a binary position one could easily make that mistake.
Sorry for implying you were intentionally 'regurgitating' talking points. In my defense, the overall argument you came up with and the one Tucker Carlson used on his show were so oddly similar yet random in their point that it just seemed too coincidental. But, glad I'm wrong on that point.
I hope I addressed your argument in a more meaningful way in the previous post.
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Oculus Spirit [83129]
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I would vote against.***
Jul 18, 2018, 5:02 PM
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Lot o points [155944]
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Ditto....I truly don’t get it.***
Jul 18, 2018, 5:39 PM
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Can someone explain to me how this isn't hypocritical?
Jul 18, 2018, 6:47 PM
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Even if there is some rational reason for it, it's not good for Dems. Sucks when they do stuff like that, because it hurts Dems in Presidential elections. It makes it look like all libs are extreme.
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Lot o points [155944]
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it certainly adds a lot of fodder
Jul 18, 2018, 6:49 PM
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for slippery slope illegal immigration arguments, whether deserved or not.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Can someone explain to me how this isn't hypocritical?
Jul 18, 2018, 7:20 PM
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Let's put the emotions aside and just discuss this on the merits.
First, the comparison to the Russia scandal is asinine. Now that that's out the way...
It appears to affect only the school board. Non-citizen residents must be over 18 with a child under 19. Because you'll be classified as a non-legal resident, there will probably not many who want to be on such a registry and those who do are likely to be invested in the school system.
It doesn't sound good from a PR standpoint, but it's not too egregious and it's not unique. Several other towns in America have similar policies. It doesn't appear to be unconstitutional and falls with the US constitution's exercise of powers that are left to the states or the people.
If it doesn't work, it sunsets in 2022, so that's a safeguard.
I likely would have voted no, but would accept being out voted.
Back to the Russia comparison. That's so far out there that I don't know how to even address it. You're comparing a foreign attack to a legal process.
If you believe this to be an abuse of power to sway elections, it would have been better compared to North Carolina's law where a study was done of what programs made it easier for minorities to vote and then made those things illegal. That was on a much grander scale, but it would at least be in the same ballpark.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Thanks for a thoughtful response, but they're
Jul 18, 2018, 9:34 PM
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completely analogous on principles, if not on the order of magnitude.
If you aren't ok with non-US Citizens having a voice in US elections (a logical opinion, IMHO), it seems that it's such a straightforward stance that one's principles should apply across the board, regardless of whether it's for the local utilities commissioner or the President.
It's truly not complex.
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Legend [18026]
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On that level, you have a point. But...
Jul 18, 2018, 9:59 PM
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When you look at the context I think the comparison falls apart. Russia meddling/interfering with the election wasn't just a problem because they are non-US citizens having a say in an election, it was that it was led by a hostile Governmental Military Organization that wanted to create chaos and destroy faith in a democratic process and to sway the election to their preferred candidate.
The example in San Francisco is about whether or not non-US citizen (many aren't illegal) residents in that city should have a vote for who makes up the board of education where their children are educated. I think the more interesting argument here is that ex-convicts aren't allowed to have a vote but non-US citizens are and whether or not that's fair.
I can see your point of view on this issue and I apologize for my earlier remarks that accused you of simply posting talking points.
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Lot o points [155944]
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No worries man, everything is wayyy too heated these days
Jul 18, 2018, 10:19 PM
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I'm guilty too often of it myself. I enjoy the cordial conversations like these.
The irony I get in reading your differentiation, is that it seems to me that both situations might wind up at the same endpoint, despite vastly different methods and with different intentions.
I don't think there's too much debate that illegals would probably engage in bloc voting, heavily favoring one party over another. If that's the case, and a party could sway the outcome of an election (any election where it were allowed, from smallest levels of govt to highest) merely by "importing" more voters, would that not destroy faith in a democratic process and sway the election to their preferred candidate?
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Legend [18026]
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What you are talking about could happen, but is unlikely...
Jul 18, 2018, 10:42 PM
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and is different than what is happening in San Francisco with the board of education vote and is definitely different that the reality of what Russia did and is currently doing.
But yeah, it's something to keep an eye out for if it ever actually happens. But I don't think we have to look that far from reality to see cases where votes are manipulated to gain power. Look at voter ID and gerrymandering as cases where access and demographics are abused to gain an advantage by one party or the other (and both sides are guilty of at least gerrymandering). We don't have to look outside of what is currently being done to make us worried about our democratic processes.
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