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Hall of Famer [22947]
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Any electricians here?
Feb 13, 2016, 9:11 AM
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A house we're considering buying appears to have old electrical. Panel looks old, many outlets only have two prongs, and lots of weird light switches (see pic of example, I think they are low voltage switches).
Should I budget to upgrade the whole electrical? If so, any approx cost for a 3,000sqft house?
Should I bring in an electrician before making an offer on the house, or would a regular home inspector be knowledgeable on the needs?
Thanks!
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All-TigerNet [11021]
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I would sure change that. How old is the house? I recently
Feb 13, 2016, 9:37 AM
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remodeled one that was built in 1852. The wiring was the type from the 1940's...just two wires, no ground.
I used to get questioned as to whether certain of the light fixtures were put in when the house was built or added later? Some people just don't think before they open their mouths.
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Hall of Famer [24777]
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Get at least 3 bids w/details... but do it.***
Feb 13, 2016, 9:53 AM
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: Any electricians here?
Feb 13, 2016, 9:56 AM
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The Bank usually makes the owner bring the house to code before they loan money
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All-In [26012]
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Re: Any electricians here?
Feb 13, 2016, 10:01 AM
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I don't think it is worth the risk to not re-wire and re-plumb, if needed. Get an electrician and plumber that you know and trust to give you what they think.
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110%er [6321]
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OMG, that is totally untrue.
Feb 13, 2016, 8:56 PM
[ in reply to Re: Any electricians here? ] |
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The National Electrical Code is revised EVERY THREE YEARS. How in the world would any bank be able to keep track of that??????
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: OMG, that is totally untrue.
Feb 14, 2016, 10:17 AM
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Inspectors
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110%er [6321]
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OMG, that is ALSO totally untrue.
Feb 14, 2016, 10:20 AM
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Home inspectors DO NOT intrusively inspect a home's wiring to verify compliance with the CURRENT National Electrical Code.
Remember the "First Law of Holes" and stop while you can still climb out of it...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_holes
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: OMG, that is ALSO totally untrue.
Feb 14, 2016, 11:00 AM
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If you have the wrong breakers in your box they will make you change them.
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: OMG, that is ALSO totally untrue.
Feb 14, 2016, 11:02 AM
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I just sold a house in 2011 that was only 9 yrs old and they made me change up my breaker box.
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All-In [40934]
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Inspectors are not trained to do electrical inspections
Feb 14, 2016, 11:04 AM
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or any other inspection that would require an engineering or licensed trade evaluation
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: Inspectors are not trained to do electrical inspections
Feb 14, 2016, 11:14 AM
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LOL
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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110%er [6321]
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So you can just Google yourself into being an Electrician!
Feb 14, 2016, 11:42 AM
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I told you above, stop digging. You are just making yourself look bad.
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: You know, you can just Google yourself into an Electrician!
Feb 14, 2016, 11:46 AM
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Im talking from expirence brother I have sold a few houses in my life time.
So you are saying that inspectors don't look at the wiring of a house?
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110%er [6321]
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No d@mmit, look at your original statement:
Feb 14, 2016, 11:50 AM
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Quote: "The Bank usually makes the owner bring the house to code before they loan money"
This is ABSOLUTELY FALSE!
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: No d@mmit, look at your original statement:
Feb 14, 2016, 11:56 AM
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They want make you re wire the whole house but if you don't have grounds and low voltage breakers.
They will make you get it right is all I was saying.
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110%er [6321]
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Re: No d@mmit, look at your original statement:
Feb 14, 2016, 12:00 PM
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Well, that's a little different that "bringing it up to code".
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: No d@mmit, look at your original statement:
Feb 14, 2016, 12:08 PM
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Well there is Code for the breakers
Just saying
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110%er [6321]
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Re: No d@mmit, look at your original statement:
Feb 14, 2016, 12:16 PM
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All-In [40934]
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Home inspectors simply are not qualified and if
Feb 14, 2016, 11:49 AM
[ in reply to Re: Inspectors are not trained to do electrical inspections ] |
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one tells you they are you better be careful. If you have electrical issues you better believe that you need a licensed electrician to diagnose the problem. I do 100 home inspections are year. Probably a third of them are due to the fact that the home inspector is not qualified and recommends that an engineer look at it. It's side work for my company, but it adds up in the course of a year.
People hire home inspectors to reduce the cost. Paint this, fix that, get a contractor to look at that. They are not trained to do electrical inspections other than look at the box or check to see if there is a gfci where required. They don't check circuits or wire gauge or grounding like an electrician will. If they see an electrical problem they should and normally do tell you to get an electrician.
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: Home inspectors simply are not qualified and if
Feb 14, 2016, 12:00 PM
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I did never say the inspector was going to fix the problem.
But they will fail you for electrical problems
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CU Medallion [58415]
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Home inspectors do a very basic inspection of a home's
Feb 14, 2016, 2:06 PM
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electrical system, making sure everything works and does not present a safety hazard. They do not do a complete inspection and are not responsible for making sure everything is up to current code.
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: Home inspectors do a very basic inspection of a home's
Feb 14, 2016, 2:32 PM
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Oh my God no Fing #### .
But if the inspectors fail you the bank will make you fix what is wrong
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: Home inspectors do a very basic inspection of a home's
Feb 14, 2016, 2:37 PM
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Every home loan I have every had the Bank is going to send an inspector.
Even for an equity loan
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CU Medallion [58415]
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Of course - you must pass a home inspection to secure a
Feb 14, 2016, 3:55 PM
[ in reply to Re: Home inspectors do a very basic inspection of a home's ] |
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loan. However, as to the OP's question, a home inspector will not fail you simply because the house has 2-wire ungrounded receptacles, old despard type low-voltage switches, and an old breaker box. The point being, a home inspector's purpose and thus his inspection is different from that of a county or city inspector's, and the property will not have to be brought up to code in order to pass his inspection.
A couple of other things worth noting, most minor repairs or upgrades can be done without an inspection by the local electrical inspector (even if they are subject to a home inspection for purposes of qualifying for a loan). However, if the job requires a permit and is subject to an electrical inspection by the city or county, THEN the electrician may be required to upgrade everything and bring it up to code. Codes also vary from county to county, city to city, and town to town. Some municipalities adopt the most recent National Electrical Code in it's entirety as soon as it goes into effect, while others adopt only parts of it over time.
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110%er [6321]
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Legend [17626]
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All-In [40934]
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Ask him to certify your electrical or HVAC system and see
Feb 14, 2016, 3:29 PM
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what he says. Read the fine print in his contract and see how much liability he is taking. Professionals take the liability, because they know what they are doing and are qualified to do so.
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Orange Blooded [2783]
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A good home inspector may, bank doesn't necessarily care
Feb 14, 2016, 1:15 PM
[ in reply to Re: Any electricians here? ] |
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Don't skimp on the home inspector. That may be more job than you can afford
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110%er [8244]
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Re: Any electricians here?
Feb 13, 2016, 10:37 AM
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Bryant System should be the HVAC controls
If the seller is selling as is or it's a repo
it's sold As Is
Don't know where the house is located
complete re-wire price $1.50---$3.00 per sqft in up state SC
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Scout Team [176]
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Just rewire it to 220 or 221, whatever it takes...
Feb 13, 2016, 10:45 AM
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NM
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110%er [5737]
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Re: Just rewire it to 220 or 221, whatever it takes...
Feb 13, 2016, 11:31 AM
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And don't feed the baby chili
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Legend [16507]
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110%er [5225]
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CU Medallion [58415]
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Your pic definitely shows low voltage switches and the
Feb 13, 2016, 11:44 AM
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required low voltage relay; they were popular in the 60s/70s. If everything works and you won't be required by the lender/home inspector to upgrade, then you could certainly leave everything as it is. If you have a 2-wire ungrounded system (2-prong receptacles) however, it presents a problem. Almost all appliances or electronic gadgets now have a 3-prong, grounded male plug. You can get around that several ways, by buying 2-to-3 prong adapters, snipping off the ground prong on the plug, or replacing the 2-wire receptacles with 3-wire ones (even though they would not be grounded). Everything would work just fine, and would be as safe as anything built pre 1970, but would still be ungrounded. For that reason, I would suggest having the electrical upgraded if you can; you will not regret it. On the other hand, if you pass inspection and money is tight, you'd be fine upgrading at a later date. I'd go ahead, call an electrician, get an estimate and go from there.
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All-Pro [693]
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Older houses
Feb 13, 2016, 12:12 PM
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were wired without a central ground which is why there are only two prongs. The code now requires everything to have a central ground back to the panel and the panel must in turn be grounded. Not sure whether or not it would be required to upgrade but it is not something I would risk and would def budget to have it replaced. Also some really old houses would use uninsulated conductor in the attic so you may want to take a look up there, just don't touch anything if the meter is on. The panel should be 100A so that would be something to look at and you want to make sure it is a breaker panel, not the old barrel fuses that were used. Not sure if you could even find those anymore and plus its just dangerous. Hope some of that helps. Best advice, if you get this house spend the money to upgrade all the wiring and do it right. It's not worth the risk.
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Orange Blooded [4483]
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Re: Any electricians here?
Feb 13, 2016, 12:36 PM
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12/2 w/ground romex. That's the wiring you want for your outlets. Id wire em to 20 amp breakers also. I think code allows for 14 gauge on lights.
Bathrooms, kitchens, and all outside receptacles must be ground fault interrupting style be on a gfci breaker. Also, the bedrooms need to be on arc fault circuit breakers now. That means it detects and arc that may occur and trips immediately to reduce the risk of fire. Good luck with everything. Don't let anyone put 15 amp breakers and 14 gauge wiring on your outlets. Yeah it's cheaper, but not robust enough for me. MHO.
Go Tigers
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110%er [6474]
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Re: Any electricians here?
Feb 14, 2016, 1:45 AM
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Code allows 14 for all receptacles except the kitchen. Rarely I use 14 but occasionally use it in lighting. I never use it for receptacles. It is actually cheaper now to use 12, due to requirement of afci breakers. It is most practical to use the new combined fault breakers instead of using Arc fault and for some locations separate ground fault. Most inspectors interpret the current code to require afci for all interior circuits except the smoke detector and alarm circuits. I had an inspector require afci for exterior circuits as well. He said "wires run inside the house, they could still burn it down." Combined fault breakers are only a couple dollars more than afci at wholesale cost. Makes no sense to buy an afci breaker and then have to use a gfci receptacle. Also don't have to worry about wiring other receptacles down stream of the afci; you can run out of junction boxes etc. and still have gfci protection. The new requirements are costly if the inspector holds you to letter of the code. Just did a 400 amp house that has over $2000(my cost) worth of breakers in it.
Message was edited by: reynolds357®
Message was edited by: reynolds357®
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Orange Blooded [4483]
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Re: Any electricians here?
Feb 15, 2016, 12:12 AM
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Nice. Good info there. I used 12 on my lighting also when I re-wired some stuff on my house.
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110%er [7831]
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Re: Any electricians here?
Feb 14, 2016, 2:56 PM
[ in reply to Re: Any electricians here? ] |
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Code requires 12awg for receptacle circuits. Lots of electricians now use 12 for everything.
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CU Guru [1356]
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Bring in an electrician BEFORE you buy
Feb 13, 2016, 12:44 PM
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We bought a 100 year old house that had to be rewired. It's a major undertaking. Sometimes ripping out walls. Big cost. If the wiring is old the plumbing is too! That's a bigger issue.
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Orange Blooded [3562]
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Re: Any electricians here?
Feb 13, 2016, 11:53 PM
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Yes, you should have your house looked at by a licensed and professional electrician. You need to ask about 200 amp service for today's standards, and those two pronged outlets aren't grounded, by the way you may still have some cloth covered wire. The outlets and wiring are where the fire hazards are, the 200 amp service is what pushes it within your new electrical system.
To re-wire an 1200 sq. ft house with upgraded service, new panel, most likely new meter, re-wired, breakers, switches, lights, etc.. It cost me $5500. So you can multiply that according to what you need and what your electrician proposes. I am not an electrician, but I do work with electrical circuits but work with electricians and have re-modeled a few homes. Hope this helps.
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CU Guru [1059]
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All-In [49613]
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Get the electrical inspected ... the plumbing as well.
Feb 14, 2016, 10:12 AM
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A handful of reasons:
1. Peace of mind. Even if (and I'm not saying it isn't) the wiring is fine, you'll sleep better in your house. You'll also know if, in the future you decide to upgrade, you'll know if the current system can handle the increased load.
2. If not, you either have a major bargaining chip on the price or you can require the updating as a condition of sale.
3. If the wiring is old, odds are the pipes are, too. Have them checked for reasons 1 and 2.
Basically it comes down to this: I'm betting you wouldn't offer on the house without a termite inspection. Wiring and pipes can destroy a house a lot quicker than bugs.
Best of luck!
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Is it single level?***
Feb 14, 2016, 10:55 AM
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Hall of Famer [22947]
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Split level
Feb 14, 2016, 1:55 PM
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The house has a weird mix of upgrades. Some rooms renovated, others not, electrical outlets are a mix of old and new.
Just trying to figure out my plan of action and worst case scenarios. Lots of good information shared on this thread by many folks. Thanks to all!
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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It's gonna be a major renovation if you have to tear into...
Feb 14, 2016, 5:31 PM
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ceilings to rewire. Switch legs are across the ceiling and down the walls. If there's a slab on grade section such as a basement or garage that's been finished to become a living room that means the electrical in that area is all over head.
The wiring will have to be replaced. Insurance, safety of occupants and monthly cost of electricity are just some of the obstacles you'll have to endure if the wiring and fixtures aren't replaced.
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All-In [38427]
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Re: Any electricians here?
Feb 14, 2016, 12:14 PM
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I'm not an electrician but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night .
Then the power went out in my room ...and I just sat there in the musty darkness , in my sleep socks .
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110%er [7831]
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Re: Any electricians here?
Feb 14, 2016, 2:51 PM
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I did my house 9 years ago, did it myself with some helpers. Only about 1700sqft. Still cost about 5k. It won't be cheap. It'll be cheaper if you let them cut out Sheetrock where needed. Then fix that.
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CU Guru [1354]
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Wired my rebuilt house
Feb 14, 2016, 3:57 PM
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after the fire. Had my father, a master electrician, do most of the wire pulling and the panel. I set boxes, designed the electrical system, did all the AV/IT, and trimmed out the house (devices, fans, etc.). 2400 sq. ft. = $15k with open walls and a lot of labor cut off. The insurance company gave me $18-21k for the job. I did spend a lot on devices and almost doubled the number of receptacles in the house, around 70 now. I used the Adorne by Legrand line throughout the house. http://www.legrand.us/adorne.aspx
For the 2 prong outlets, you can replace all of them with 3 prong but the circuits need to be protected at the panel with a GFCI breaker. I thinks someone else may have said this already. It would be best to replace any/all of the low voltage with line voltage.
Need to be careful with any repairs/upgrades you make and compliance with the International Building Code, which most all counties use. Been a while since I had to reference it but there are certain stipulations where an entire system would have to be brought up to code depending on the scope of the project, a 50% rule. I've worked on lots of houses with my Dad where this came into play. Almost had to pull this with my insurance company on 2 structural issues. They were concerned if the issue happened before or because of the fire. Didn't matter since the house was demolished to studs, over 50% scope. They paid because they didn't want to bring in an engineer and pay twice as much to fix the problem and I didn't have to use my argument.
Find a few good electricians with experience in this type of work and get some estimates. Some are good electricians overall but a lot of labor can be saved by an electrician with the right experience and equipment to upgrade older houses. They'll know the tricks to make things easier for them, and sometimes less invasive, which usually works out better for you too.
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All-In [44050]
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I'd just buy a different house.
Feb 15, 2016, 12:03 AM
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Unless there are absolutely amazing things this house has that others in your price range do not.
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