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All-In [46825]
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To carry on the theme of the past few days...
Mar 15, 2016, 8:06 AM
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For those of you are are "non-believers," what caused you to not believe? Was it a single event? Multiple over time? Or have you never believed?
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All-In [26968]
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The Bible teaches that knowledge of God is innate.
Mar 15, 2016, 8:11 AM
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It is natural to believe in God, or gods. It takes active effort and a decision to not believe in God.
From Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
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CU Medallion [54758]
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so, the Bible is good at self-promotion?***
Mar 15, 2016, 8:22 AM
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Hall of Famer [24808]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: The Bible teaches that knowledge of God is innate.
Mar 15, 2016, 8:35 AM
[ in reply to The Bible teaches that knowledge of God is innate. ] |
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Regardless of whether the bible is true or not, does a book claiming itself to be true hold any value? There are countless other religious texts that say similar things about their validity. I could write a book right now and claim it as proof of itself, it doesn't make it true. Can you explain what exempts the Bible from the basic premise?
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All-In [34113]
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That sentence practically contradicts itself.
Mar 15, 2016, 11:49 AM
[ in reply to The Bible teaches that knowledge of God is innate. ] |
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"The Bible teaches that knowledge of God is innate."
If knowledge of the Christian God or any other supernatural entity were truly innate, then we wouldn't need to have it taught to us. Nor would we find it easy to disagree with.
Yet here I am finding it utterly false. I don't even have a clear idea of any deity in particular, let alone knowledge (innate or otherwise) of any one of them.
If not utterly self-contradictory, the sentence is at least demonstrably false through one's (or at least my) own experience.
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All-In [26968]
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I disagree. You have an innate inclination to believe
Mar 15, 2016, 12:21 PM
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in God (or some sort of deity/higher power). God loves us so much, that He put that in us. It's why people in "far off places" who have never heard the gospel are "without excuse" (Romans 1:20).
If you were to put this passage in Romans in "layman's terms," it would say something like..."All man has to do is look around, and God has shown Himself to exist. Man is born with the knowledge that there is some higher power who made all of this."
Many people (I think by your own words you are one of them) have actively suppressed that innate knowledge.
This is all according to the Bible.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: I disagree. You have an innate inclination to believe
Mar 15, 2016, 12:28 PM
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Maybe you have an innate inclination to believe in some sort of higher power. Frankly, I don't know how you decide whether that inclination is innate or not.
All I can tell you is that it's not a universal truth about our species, which I know simply because I, personally, don't experience any such inclination, and never have. As a child I was taught that I should believe, and so I attempted to do so, but I never truly achieved belief. I was fully aware that I was simply trying to "make believe."
At most, I could say that I was acting under an innate inclination to try to do what adults wanted me to do. But I never felt an inclination to believe in any god.
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All-In [26968]
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I don't know anything apart from what the Bible says.
Mar 15, 2016, 12:31 PM
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I do know that the Bible is true.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: I don't know anything apart from what the Bible says.
Mar 15, 2016, 1:02 PM
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Do you really know that the Bible is true? Are you sure? Or are you "making believe," as I tried to do when I was younger?
Is your belief a choice, or do you feel compelled to believe? When I was younger, I attempted to believe that the Christian God was real by making the choice (making believe), but I found that I could not believe something without a sufficient reason for doing so. I was (and continue to be) compelled not to believe.
Also, what does it mean to know that "the Bible is true"? Does it mean that you know that each and every statement written in the Bible is true? Probably not, since you noted earlier that a mathematical statement in the Bible was not accurate, but seemed happy that it was only slightly incorrect. Does "true" mean allegorically true, or does it have to mean clear, literal fact? If one person thinks a biblical passage is a metaphor and another person thinks it's literal, do they both "know" that it's "true"? Certainly not in the same sense of "true."
In addition, what's "the Bible"? Is one version the true one? Are they all true, despite saying different things? There are some very different translations out there, where entire sentences are rewritten (and of course, translated and retranslated), with different resulting meanings. Have you ever looked into the numerous changes to the text that were made in the King James translation--translations that were determined by committee, and which differed from other English translations? Or how about the decisions people in different churches made over the years to include or remove this or that book?
In short, it's unclear what it means to say "I know the Bible is true," because that proposition requires beliefs about lots of other underlying facts.
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All-In [26968]
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I do want to make one thing clear...
Mar 15, 2016, 1:09 PM
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I most certainly did not say in that or any other thread that anything in the Bible was inaccurate or "slightly incorrect". I did not come close to saying that.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: I do want to make one thing clear...
Mar 15, 2016, 1:19 PM
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The Bible was "approximately" right about pi, which you called "amazing harmony," despite its inaccuracy.
http://www.tigernet.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=19165183
Of course, that's just one sticky issue among the many noted in my previous post.
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All-In [26968]
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The Bible does not say anything about pi
Mar 15, 2016, 1:28 PM
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The Greek letter pi was not even invented yet in Solomon's day.
What I said was I found it cool that, when they were building this stuff, they knew that a circle's circumference was approximately three times its diameter.
The Bible does not say "Pi is 3.0000," obviously. Obviously, if they made something 10 cubits across, and 30 cubits around, it wasn't a perfect circle. Of course, no one said that it was.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: The Bible does not say anything about pi
Mar 15, 2016, 1:33 PM
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You're either playing with words or you don't know what pi is.
Doesn't matter: the same point can be made without saying "pi." The King James Version (and who doesn't like that version) refers to the body of water being "round all about."
Now either it wasn't actually round all about, or the numbers are wrong. But somewhere, there's an inaccuracy. (Or maybe a circle's circumference was 3 times the diameter back then.)
(Of course, maybe the Bible can be "true" without being entirely accurate. That's the sort of thing my post was questioning.)
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All-In [26968]
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LOL...something
Mar 15, 2016, 1:38 PM
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15 feet across and 45 feet around is going to be round. Every point on the edge is not going to be exactly equidistant from the center, but it will definitely be round.
If they had said it was 15 feet across and 100 feet around, I would have questioned whether they really understood what round meant.
This is what we can refer to as grasping at straws for something inaccurate in the Bible.
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All-In [26968]
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Let's also mention that a cubit is not a standard unit
Mar 15, 2016, 1:43 PM
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(Not that there were any standard units back then)
This would have been some guy using his arm to measure.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: Let's also mention that a cubit is not a standard unit
Mar 15, 2016, 1:52 PM
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This would have been some guy using his arm to measure.
I couldn't agree more that "some guy" (i.e., not a supernatural diety) was responsible. The surprising thing for me is that you agree.
As for "grasping at straws for something inaccurate in the Bible": If the bad math were the only issue, I'd agree with you. But there's so, so, so much more.
Shall we look elsewhere? How about all of the text that has been deleted from the Bible over the years, as people have come to disagree about whether the text was added early enough to be the "true" Bible.
For text that has been deleted after the KJV, see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bible_verses_not_included_in_modern_translations
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All-In [26968]
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LOL...what is going on here?
Mar 15, 2016, 2:07 PM
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The Bible doesn't say that God measured it! Of course a man measured it. In this case, it doesn't even say that God gave measurement instructions (though that happened a lot). This was just a recording of measurements.
This is a weird conversation. Very very desperate grasping at straws.
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All-In [34113]
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You want a recap?
Mar 15, 2016, 2:47 PM
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1) You said "The Bible teaches that knowledge of God is innate. It is natural to believe in God, or gods. It takes active effort and a decision to not believe in God."
2) I said that "I don't even have a clear idea of any deity in particular, let alone knowledge (innate or otherwise) of any one of them." And not because I didn't make a genuine effort. I tried in particular to believe in the Christian God. So, whatever else you might believe, you would be incorrect to say that all humans have an innate knowledge of God.
(Either that, or my earnest attempts to believe were somehow foiled, and I have fooled myself into thinking that I'm not innately aware of any gods. Yet I continue to study religion, philosophy, and the way the world works--odd behavior for someone trying to avoid the truth. And the more I learn, the less sense it makes to believe in Yahweh or any other religion's dieties. Instead, it only becomes more amazing to me that anyone really, truly believe. It's what makes your views utterly fascinating to me. But back to the recap.)
3) You responded: "I don't know anything apart from what the Bible says. I do know that the Bible is true."
4) I responded by pointing out problems with the idea of knowing "the Bible is true." One problem is knowing what "true" means; and it's in that respect that I mentioned the mathematical error (or approximating, or maybe just imprecise language about something being "round all about").
But that's just one small issue among much bigger problems with "I know the Bible is true." Other problems include:
- What sort of knowledge are we talking about? Is there a difference from your type of knowledge and the kind I had when I was "making believe"?
- What does it mean for the Bible to be true? Each and every sentence? Does "figuratively" true count?
- Which Bible? The King James Version, which contains verses later removed because they were determined to have been added too recently to be the "real" Bible? Do sentences in the Bible become more or less true when they're added or removed by editors over the centuries?
- How sure are you of the Bible's truth? Do you have any doubt at all, or is your knowledge absolutely impervious to critical inspection? For instance, are you already sure of how to resolve all of the above problems with the Bible's truth? Can you gain more knowledge, or were you born with all of it and have nothing more to learn?
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All-In [26968]
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I'm not bothering with defending the Bible...
Mar 15, 2016, 2:52 PM
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That'd be like a gnat coming to the defense of a T-Rex. You either believe the Bible is true, or you don't.
I was concerned with defending myself from the accusation that I claimed something in the Bible was not accurate.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: I'm not bothering with defending the Bible...
Mar 15, 2016, 3:36 PM
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The math issue:
The numbers are absolutely inaccurate.
You said that "If they had said it was 15 feet across and 100 feet around, I would have questioned whether they really understood what round meant." But it's worse than that. It says a diameter of 10 and a circumference of 30, but there is nothing close to a round shape that would permit those numbers. Maybe it was actually a long rectangle 10 across and 5 wide? That would do it.
As for measuring with one's arm, it was apparently a "molten sea," so measuring that way might be dangerous.
Look, I'm perfectly okay with the numbers being approximate. It just limits what one means when saying that it's "true." (And then there's all the other issues I listed.)
The knowledge issue, and "defending the Bible":
I'm not suggesting you defend the Bible. I'm explaining the problem with YOUR assertion, "I know that the Bible is true." It's a sentence that could mean a variety of things.
Taken one way, you WOULD be able to defend the Bible, because you would actually have independent knowledge of the facts set forth in one or another version of it, and have confirmed its accuracy. (Unlikely to be the right meaning, for many reasons including the math issue above).
Taken another way, you could be assuming, without REALLY knowing, that every statement in every version of every book called "The Bible" is true.
Taken yet another way, you could be "making believe" that every statement in a specific version of the Bible is true, because having that belief produces a certain powerful emotional response in you, and you would feel worse to question it.
The possibilities go on. See my bulleted list in the other post.
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All-In [26968]
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I know the Bible is true the only way anyone does...
Mar 15, 2016, 3:44 PM
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by witness of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit that teaches, and causes us to believe it and understand it. That is the only mechanism.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: I know the Bible is true the only way anyone does...
Mar 15, 2016, 4:29 PM
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OK, that's interesting. You're saying that, to the extent you know that the Bible is true, it's because the truth of the Bible was communicated to you by the Holy Spirit?
If so, it's amazing and mysterious. Some follow-up questions:
1. Other than the not-too-informative statement "the Bible is true," has the Holy Spirit provided any guidance as to what that means? (Recall all the problems I mentioned in the bullet-point list.)
2. If guidance has been provided, how comprehensive has it been? Did it explain which version of the Bible is the best approximation of the truth, and which versions have parts that were added or omitted improperly? Where does the King James Version fall on the list? Are the parts of the KJV that were later removed no longer true? Has the Holy Spirit gone over any of this? (If not, the assertion "the Bible is true" could be as confusing to you as it is to me.)
3. Did the Holy Spirit explain which passages are literally 100% truth as communicated by God and unaltered by human meddling, and which are in need of interpretation. I'm thinking of the round sea that's not really round (you said it's because God didn't do the measuring--is that what the Holy Spirit said, or were you guessing?), or the rabbits chewing cud even though rabbits don't do that, or referring to a bat as a bird, or Jesus promising to return while some of his contemporaries were still alive, or whether Judas hanged himself or exploded all over the place... you get the idea. I'm just spitballing here. The question is whether the Holy Spirit makes it clear when the words mean what they say, and when they need to be interpreted to mean something else.
Again, not asking you to defend the Bible. This is just about your own knowledge, as YOU received it. You've been told "the Bible is true" by the Holy Spirit, but was that phrase clarified at all, or is it as big a mystery to you as it is to me?
4. Finally, can you get any more info out of the Holy Spirit? Can you learn anything about any text in any version of the Bible at any time via the Holy Spirit, or is the knowledge imparted sporadically and unexpectedly? Can you request more? Is there anything you can't find out?
I hope these questions don't sound silly.
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All-In [26968]
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Also...not to belabor what I believe to be a silly exercise,
Mar 15, 2016, 3:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: I'm not bothering with defending the Bible... ] |
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But, for example an ellipse (not perfect circle) that is 10 cubits across one way, but 9.2 cubits across the other axis would have a circumference of right around 30 cubits. I used a tool I found online to draw one with those dimensions, and it looks pretty round to me.
So, of course it's possible to have a round object that is 10 cubits across and 30 cubits around.
I can't believe I spent this much time on this, lol.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: Also...not to belabor what I believe to be a silly exercise,
Mar 15, 2016, 4:40 PM
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That's good work. I used your dimensions and found that your 9.2 was a little high. But 9.086 works out almost perfectly.
Let's consider this one fully resolved. We'll consider "round all about" to mean round-ish (who knows how the text read in the original Hebrew anyway--maybe it said "oval"!), and we'll agree that an ellipse fits the description well enough.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: You want a recap?
Mar 15, 2016, 2:58 PM
[ in reply to You want a recap? ] |
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I don't think there is any evidence you could present that would convince Prod otherwise. He's interest lies in religion and not in science inquiry. He already "knows" how reality works and has no interest in updating his knowledge and is arrogant enough to think that he couldn't possibly be wrong.
The Bible and science directly contradict each other especially when talking about origins. He simply says science got evolution wrong even though that's arguably more egregiously wrong than saying the earth is flat considering the evidence we have.
Anything and everything you could bring up will be rationalized away somehow:
1. You mentioned PI, well of course it's not supposed to be exact he says
2. If you bring up evolution, well 99% of scientist have it completely wrong
3. If you bring up the obvious cruelty of god commanding the enemy's children to be slain and infants being ripped from their mother's womb, it's all part of god's plan and is perfectly acceptible.
4. If you point out obvious contradictions in the bible such as genesis first claiming man was created then animals and then a few chapters later saying it was the other way around.. well then it's clearly just a translation error. Which, while we are on that topic, I have to say that it's ridiculous that a supposed divinely inspired work would be communicated to us through a written medium like this. I mean, it seems to me that was the best form of communication at the time so thats how those people wrote it... Why didn't Jesus wait a few thousand more years and come back today when he could just write a blog or perform miracles when billions of people could see it?
5. etc, etc, etc.....
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All-In [34113]
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Re: You want a recap?
Mar 15, 2016, 3:06 PM
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I don't think there is any evidence you could present that would convince Prod otherwise.
If you re-read my post, I was not trying to convince Prod of much of anything. I was asking what HE meant when he stated what he knew.
He's interest lies in religion and not in science inquiry.
I'm not sure he's that interested in religion. My questions were specifically about religious belief, and he seemed utterly uninterested.
He already "knows" how reality works and has no interest in updating his knowledge and is arrogant enough to think that he couldn't possibly be wrong.
I would NEVER describe Prod as arrogant. He always seems very humble to me. At worst, he might just avoid questioning his own beliefs, preferring to repeat am assertion like "I know the Bible is true" without taking a moment to wonder what it is he's asserting (in light of, for example, the bullet point list in my earlier post).
You mentioned PI, well of course it's not supposed to be exact he says.
He actually admitted that the writing was by a human and not a god, which surprised me, because that's my view.
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All-In [26968]
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Well, I don't see how it's arrogant
Mar 15, 2016, 3:08 PM
[ in reply to Re: You want a recap? ] |
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to claim that I know nothing, and that someone else (God) knows everything.
We (humans) are wrong more than we're right. God has never been wrong, and never will be.
You hopefully see a difference in my posts when I'm talking about things not addressed in Scripture (like politics, for instance). They are filled with doubt and inquisitiveness (at least that's the way I hope they appear).
But I don't doubt the Bible. I'm sorry if that comes across as arrogant, but I hope you understand that me believing the Bible is true necessarily means that I believe me and my mind are worthless.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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"God has never been wrong, and never will be."
Mar 15, 2016, 8:27 PM
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So we're back to the idea that a perfect being created an imperfect being--man.
That seems close to an epicurean paradox.
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All-In [28802]
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Re: To carry on the theme of the past few days...
Mar 15, 2016, 8:14 AM
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I believe in a God or higher being. I just don't believe the Bible to be 100% accurate. Or either most of us are misinterpreting the Bible which I find unlikely.
I don't believe in a literal hell, or talking snakes, etc
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All-In [38514]
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I've never believed, specifically in any formal religion.
Mar 15, 2016, 8:27 AM
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I feel like I have a degree of spirituality, but I don't attempt to define it and it doesn't match with any religion. My spirituality doesn't require answers or a framework, nor do I want it to.
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All-In [38514]
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I consider myself to be a humanist.
Mar 15, 2016, 8:31 AM
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Kurt Vonnegut had a quote that said something like faith in a supernatural being is easy but having faith in mankind is true faith.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: To carry on the theme of the past few days...
Mar 15, 2016, 8:33 AM
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First of all I would define myself as being agnostic. My best guess would be that there isn't anything supernatural based on my personal experiences but I really just don't know. It would be trivial to convince me otherwise though, I simply require solid evidence.
Believe it or not, if I had been on tigernet just a few years back I would sound almost exactly like jhop does now. It wasn't a single event that changed my mind but many years of converstations similar to what we've seen in here of the last couple of days. Once I finally realized I couldn't intelligently defend my position anymore, I was forced to really examine what I believe.
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All-In [46825]
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Re: To carry on the theme of the past few days...
Mar 15, 2016, 9:00 AM
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Your last paragraph is a lot like me but I believe mine to be more of a course of events.
I was raised in church and was a devout Christian for many years. However, a series of events and questioning what I believed rocked my faith to the core.
One of the very first instances where I started really question what it is I was believing in was when a friend of mine lost her son. Walking into that house and seeing a mother holding her lifeless son with a blank expressionless face is something I can't unsee to this day. Then hearing her blood curdling scream when the funeral director took him from her arms rocked me to my core. This kid was a perfectly healthy 4 year old with a bright future. Then one day he gets sick and they find out he has cancer. That is just one of many instances.
From that day forward I started to really question what I believed in and why. I even took a year to dig through the bible hoping that would strengthen my faith. All it did was leave me with more questions and more doubts.
Idk maybe one day it will make better sense to me but right now I feel like if there is a God he doesn't care what happens to us. He just set everything in motion and it takes care of itself.
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All-In [42196]
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Last year...
Mar 15, 2016, 9:03 AM
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I lost a good friend to cancer. She left behind a teenage son and two little boys. She was one of the kindest souls you would ever meet. She was the best mother you could imagine. Anyone who crossed her path became an instant friend.
She was taken from them and I get to see all these other horrible people who treat their children like garbage still get to remain on this Earth. It only solidified my beliefs.
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All-In [42196]
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It was a gradual process
Mar 15, 2016, 8:57 AM
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Starting in high school, I was very devout and in the past, had no problem expressing that even here on these boards.
But here's what gradually took its toll:
1. The more I researched the Bible and compared to history/science, the more things didn't make sense.
2. I personally bore witness to too many horrible things in my early to mid-20s, including many deaths. I saw no presence of a God there.
3. The corruption of church officials and how some people use religion for their own financial gain.
4. The treatment of homosexuals by Christianity. I cannot subscribe to a belief that labels them sinners for how they were born (and no, I'm not going to debate that they weren't born this way).
5. The continued push to force Christianity into our laws by politicians along with the false claims of persecution.
6. My personal happiness and inner peace have gradually increased as I moved away from Christianity. I felt less guilt, less fear of the world, and less anger towards others. I feel like I'm doing something right.
I'm not an atheist. I'll put myself in the agnostic camp. I can't say for certain that there's nothing out there. I think there is something greater in this universe that we have yet to comprehend. I just don't feel Christianity/Judaism got it right.
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All-In [46825]
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Re: It was a gradual process
Mar 15, 2016, 9:01 AM
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My God #3. The worse backstabbing I have ever encountered was in churches.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: It was a gradual process
Mar 15, 2016, 9:19 AM
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My wife and I were talking about this just recently.
It hasn't been gays, atheists, Muslims, drug addicts or other "sinners" who have hurt us. It was Christians.
A year ago, popo and dss drove up in my yard. My first thought was they're at the wrong house. But, no. Some "Christians" had actually accused me of "sexually abusing" my children. The popo and dss all knew me, they'd all seen me on their TV sets in the past. But they had to investigate anyway. For a few days, we thought my wife's ex husband was behind it.
We found out a few days later, it was actually a vindictive "Christian." He wrote my wife a long email telling her it was time for us to pay for our "past sins." I kid you not.
We are currently suing this guy and his wife(he wrote the same email to various other people) and have already took his job from him. He had a government job and part of his job required a certain level of "ethics," Something he doesn't know what means. You don't lie on people.
He told my wife, even if the accusations isn't true, we need to pay for our sins. This moron thinks he is God.
The worse part is the guy is my wife's brother. He has never even been in our home nor around me and my kids.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: It was a gradual process
Mar 15, 2016, 9:22 AM
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^^all because my wife was still legally married when we met.
Dude has told my wife on more than one occasion that in God's eyes, she is not married to Me....blah blah blah
Talk about backwoods Christianity
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All-In [46825]
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Re: It was a gradual process
Mar 15, 2016, 9:26 AM
[ in reply to Re: It was a gradual process ] |
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My wife's divorce wasn't finalized until about 3 months after we started dating. My mom who is extremely religious flipped! They are good now though.
So you're on tv? Are you the Hoff? Asking for a friend.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: It was a gradual process
Mar 15, 2016, 9:41 AM
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I was on TV. I'm a meteorologist.
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All-In [46825]
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Re: It was a gradual process
Mar 15, 2016, 10:27 AM
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What do you do about st. patties day
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: It was a gradual process
Mar 15, 2016, 10:32 AM
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I'm lost
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All-In [46825]
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Re: It was a gradual process
Mar 15, 2016, 10:33 AM
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you can't wear green right?
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: It was a gradual process
Mar 15, 2016, 10:36 AM
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LOL I gotcha now.
I was trying to remember if I did something on St Patrick's day that I forgot Id done
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: It was a gradual process
Mar 15, 2016, 10:38 AM
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But to answer your question, most of my outfits were orange or had some orange on them.
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CU Medallion [54758]
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: you probably sinned. probably.***
Mar 15, 2016, 10:42 AM
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No doubt but it's not up to him to decide punishment, especially when totally innocent children are involved
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All-In [46825]
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Re: It was a gradual process
Mar 15, 2016, 10:42 AM
[ in reply to Re: It was a gradual process ] |
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Unless you are a meteor in the florence or MB area I doubt I have seen you.
Message was edited by: FBCoachSC®
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: It was a gradual process
Mar 15, 2016, 10:44 AM
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No, I am retired from TV and now reside in Horry County.
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All-In [46825]
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Re: It was a gradual process
Mar 15, 2016, 10:46 AM
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Were you on 13 or 15?
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: It was a gradual process
Mar 15, 2016, 10:52 AM
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I never worked in the Florence/MB market. I've worked in Charlotte, Baltimore, and a couple smaller markets.
I now work for the NWS.
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All-In [46825]
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Re: It was a gradual process
Mar 15, 2016, 10:54 AM
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So you're the voice that comes over the radio that warns that a storm may or may not be coming.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: It was a gradual process
Mar 15, 2016, 10:57 AM
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LOL
I help determine when that voice is heard on the radio.
I also investigate potential tornados/straight line winds. It's cool
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All-In [46825]
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Re: It was a gradual process
Mar 15, 2016, 11:03 AM
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Well stop making it come on during FGL songs!
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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All-In [46825]
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Re: It was a gradual process
Mar 15, 2016, 10:43 AM
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Why does it have to overlay?
Why can't it x-ray?
Stupid technology.
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CU Medallion [54758]
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Re:lated: We took a family souvenir pic at the GA Aquarium
Mar 15, 2016, 10:47 AM
[ in reply to Re: It was a gradual process ] |
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one where there's a green screen behind you and you have your choice of backgrounds.
well, LilGUAR#1 had a matching green shirt on that day.
This picture, needless to say, is not displayed in our house.
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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All-In [26968]
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This thread is proof positive that...
Mar 15, 2016, 9:25 AM
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We could have many more Christians if people who claim to be Christians acted like Christ.
Any Christian who wants to bemoan the fact that the world is turning away from Christianity needs a good dose of self-examination. Starting with me.
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All-In [46825]
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Re: This thread is proof positive that...
Mar 15, 2016, 9:26 AM
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"I like your Christ, I don't like your Christians. Your Christians are nothing like your Christ." -Ghandi
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All-In [38925]
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dont be too hard on yourself
Mar 15, 2016, 9:36 AM
[ in reply to This thread is proof positive that... ] |
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I was non believer before you were born, so you had no influence on my decision.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: This thread is proof positive that...
Mar 15, 2016, 9:50 AM
[ in reply to This thread is proof positive that... ] |
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Ok sure but I find it VERY odd that my salvation could possibly depend on YOU (or any other christian) acting more christ-like. That would be a very scary thought that it's not up to the individual.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: This thread is proof positive that...
Mar 15, 2016, 9:53 AM
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I think he is saying Christianity would be more attractive to us if Christians really acted like Christians.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: This thread is proof positive that...
Mar 15, 2016, 9:59 AM
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I know, but the implications are the same. A more attractive christianity leads to more salvations...
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All-In [26968]
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Salvation depends only on what Christ has done
Mar 15, 2016, 10:27 AM
[ in reply to Re: This thread is proof positive that... ] |
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And what we do with that.
But everything we do impacts those around us, for good and for bad.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Salvation depends only on what Christ has done
Mar 15, 2016, 10:36 AM
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> And what we do with that.
This part contradicts the first right? It's either only dependent on christ only or it's not.
> But everything we do impacts those around us, for good and for bad.
Doesn't this imply that you can affect someone's salvation though? For example, let's say you chose not to teach your children about christ, would that not be a direct effect on your child's salvation?
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All-In [26968]
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An indirect effect. Very strong indirect effect.
Mar 15, 2016, 10:43 AM
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Potentially disastrous indirect effect.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: An indirect effect. Very strong indirect effect.
Mar 15, 2016, 11:30 AM
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Which basically means it's not all up the individual no? i.e. simply being born into the wrong situation worsens your chances of going to heaven?
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All-In [26968]
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My posts in this thread already answer your questions.
Mar 15, 2016, 12:23 PM
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I can't say it any differently.
You ask "what color is the sky?" I reply, "Blue". Then you follow up with "OK, but what is the color of the sky?"
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: My posts in this thread already answer your questions.
Mar 15, 2016, 12:56 PM
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I'm sorry but you were being quite equivocal by saying that it's all up to jesus and then saying that in actuality a person's actions do have a an effect.
Either it's 100% all up to Jesus (i.e. deterministic) or we have a say in our salvation. Or of course that salvation isn't even a thing but that's not what we are talking about.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: This thread is proof positive that...
Mar 15, 2016, 9:58 AM
[ in reply to This thread is proof positive that... ] |
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I agree.
I can probably name 20 people in my inner circle who refuses to step foot in church because of Christians, not because they don't necessarily believe there is a God, etc.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Pretty accurate description why I don't go to church
Mar 15, 2016, 10:27 AM
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Bunch of judgmental, cliquish hypocrites...in the church I grew up in, anyway.
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All-In [38925]
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guess I've never really believed
Mar 15, 2016, 9:30 AM
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I was very very young when I decided to be Baptized because that was expected of me, but by 10 I would stand my ground on not attending church and argue about what I felt with my family.
I'm still the lone family member that doesn't believe or at least attend church
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110%er [5887]
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Re: To carry on the theme of the past few days...
Mar 15, 2016, 1:42 PM
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I'm not a nonbeliever. I do believe in Intelligent Design to some degree. But I don't believe that God or anyone else ever intended for the social institution of religion to wreak so much havoc on people's individual consciousness or to do so much damage to relations between people who otherwise have more in common with each other than not.
1) Anti-intellectual The discourse and claims of fact in a religious environment do not lend themselves to any real analysis or investigation. Addressing one of the dozens of outright fallacies thrown around in most Southern evangelical churches on Sundays would lead to weird stares and folks passive-aggressively ignoring you at lunch in the fellowship hall. Groupthink is the only think, and "being righter than the other religions" are all that matter.
2) Lack of humanity. My brother came out of the closet about 3 years ago, I watched how all of his good Christian friends treated him when that happened. Seeing people turn their back on someone you love and who you know is a good person is heartbreaking. In fact, what's in the mind/heart of someone who has decided to completely turn their back on someone they call a friend based on something they learned in Sunday School is more along the lines of spite. Playing the role of the devil to inflict pain on the supposed evildoer. It's wrong.
The same story can be heard 1000 times with those who've dated outside of their race, those who do this, those who do that. Too many people trade real bonds and relationships for those manufactured on Sundays.
3) Demanding an uneven playing field as it pertains to the 1st amendment (and other constitutional laws). Feeling they have the right to disregard the individual liberties of certain groups as long as religion is used as justification, but not extending that same courtesy to any other religions.
4) Antisocial: Can I just say it? If you make it a point to talk about religion (or any political topic) when I don't know you, I automatically assume you have the IQ of a spider monkey. There's a lot of overlap between people who openly chastise non-believers (or even who brag about how devout they are) and people who openly say stuff like "those coons need to get jobs" and "he talks like a phag".
I'm not calling all religious people racist, but that correlation is not even one I'm interested in defending or debating, especially if you're a fellow South Carolinian and have lived here your whole life like I have.
What makes it worse is that 90% of the people who are all up in your face about the stuff usually don't even go to church themselves.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: To carry on the theme of the past few days...
Mar 15, 2016, 5:40 PM
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1. I understand what you're saying here, but you make it sound like you wanna jump up in the middle of the service, yank the mic out of the preachers hand and tell the congregation they're nothing but a bunch of hypocrites...and while that would be hilarious, there would be a much better approach. Most pastors would love to talk to someone one on one that is struggling with their faith.
2. If your brother's friends did this they're not real friends obviously (I've found out in other ways very few of the people I grew up with were true friends), and I would bet they aren't really Christians either. I have two cousins that I used to wrestle in the floor with when we were kids (now I know why they enjoyed being pinned down so much) and while I don't agree with their lifestyle I still love them and treat them like family, and I think most true Christians would.
3. I agree that a lot of church-goers are guilty of this.
4. All I can say about this is there are bad apples in every group, and also that even the most devout Christians sin. There are also people that are at church every time the doors are open that are headed straight for hell and even the Bible tells us that.
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Orange Blooded [4747]
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Re: To carry on the theme of the past few days...
Mar 15, 2016, 8:15 PM
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I was raised in a Southern Baptist household, though not the fire-and-brimstone type. It was clear that my mom wanted me to be a Christian from day one, however. We went to church every Sunday if possible until I was about 12 years old.
I really, truly tried to believe. I was saved and baptized when I was 9 or 10, I think. When I look back on it, I think the reason I did it was because it was in VBS and a lot of my friends were going up to the altar, so I thought I should join them. Peer pressure, and all that. Up until I graduated high school, I considered myself a Christian. In hindsight, I was just going through the motions in an attempt to force myself to believe something I really couldn't accept. I had always loved science and am a natural-born skeptic, but it wasn't until years later that I realized that I never truly bought into Christianity like others did.
While I was still in high school, I learned about the concept of deism. This made much more sense to me than an all-powerful god who constantly sticks his nose into things. After I started college, I really thought about this concept and started calling myself a deist. The seeds of doubt had been planted and had begun to sprout.
The thing that really put the nail in the coffin for me was a philosophy class I took my junior year of college. Learning about the basics of logic and things like the Euthyphro dilemma made me realize that religion is inherently illogical and unreasonable.
The strange thing is that I'm far more interested in religion as an atheist than I ever was as a believer. Since I deconverted, I've read the Bible front-to-back, and am currently in the process of reading the Book of Mormon. I'm looking to pick up a copy of the Quran after I finish that. I love comparative religion and, of course, debating with theists.
It took about four years for me to go from Christian to deist to atheist. I am an agnostic atheist; that is, I don't know if a god exists, nor do I believe in one. I also consider myself a secular humanist. Usually if anyone asks, I just say I'm an atheist.
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