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Orange Blooded [2753]
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Remember, this is why we lost . . .
Nov 16, 2016, 4:31 PM
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http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=18033430
And when I say "this is why" I don't mean that every other mistake or missed opportunity or bad penalty call or missed point of execution was NOT ALSO in some way to blame, and that this one thing is alone "the cause. ***BUT,*** Dabo likes to talk about controlling the things you can control, and while bad officiating can't be controlled, and while missed assignments and bad execution will happen in the lightening fast speed and rough competition of a game -it is very very easy, very much under the staff's control, to not take unnecessary risks like throwing the ball on 2nd and goal from the 3 with an 8 point lead and 5:58 left. No it's not the only thing that could be said to have lost the game, but of all the things that can be controlled, why not use some brains and make the safe call. Even WITH the turnovers, the defensive woes, and the officiating, EVEN WITH ALL THAT, we could have won had we not inexplicably thrown a pass a that juncture.
Playing close to the vest early in the game b/c you're terrified of every possible mistake is called playing to lose. But playing close to the vest late in the game when you are nursing a VERY SECURABLE LEAD, is actually a smart form of conservative play than can accurately be tagged "playing to win." People often simply equate playing to win with aggressiveness and "playing not to lose" with conservative play. But it's more about the situation and what it demands than a simple aggressive/conservative analysis.
And we've made this mistake OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER for several years now. It was only a matter of time before that kind of thing caught up with us. It's about time the staff wakes up to this major blind spot. If they don't, you can bet your butt it will happen again. They are a bang-up staff, they really are. They deserve a TON of credit. But with all due respect (and much indeed is due), this is an indefensible blind spot.
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All-In [40100]
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Get your point and won't discount it, but the play that
Nov 16, 2016, 4:46 PM
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upset me most is the 3-1. We have just over a minute left. 3-1. You have to know that if you get this, you can kneel out the clock b/c they have one time out left. And we just don't get it done. And, we don't get it done on 4th down either. Didn't like the jumbo package call. Would rather it have been a straight at right tackle to tight end call then a sweep when you're asking 640 lbs. of lumber to run. This is what irks me the most. Gotta have the will to get that done. Props to Pitt's DL for not folding.
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Orange Blooded [2753]
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I hear ya, and I agree with that frustration . . . but
Nov 17, 2016, 9:37 AM
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but the only reason the pass play call on 2nd and 3 upset me more is b/c it's a simple decision of a play call. Trying to get a yard on a critical third or fourth down and not getting it is frustrating, but it's not entirely preventable - the other team knows it's a critical down to, and it's a competitive issue, two line units and the backfield and LB's go after each other, and someone gets it' done and someone doesn't. Even a better strategic call (no jumbo package), could have failed. But there's no way you throw a pick when you run the ball, and fumbles are considerably less likely.
But I hear ya.
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110%er [6153]
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You blaming the staff for calling it or DW for throwing it ?
Nov 16, 2016, 4:50 PM
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It think every Clemson fan was extremely frustrated when the pass was intercepted.
But, the staff did not call for an "interception", they called for a completed pass for a TD.
I don't like 20/20 hindsight.
I can almost guarantee you that if we'd have called three conservative runs then had to kick a field goal, we would have heard heavy criticism for "settling" for a FG when we should have gone up by 14 points.
And then ... if our reeling porous defense had not been able to hold on to the 11-point lead, we'd have heard the familiar cry that we're weak and we don't know how to "finish off" an opponent.
FACT: The play that was called was very poorly executed ... without a doubt.
But, who do we blame since you've now identified that one play as the reason we lost the game??
The staff for calling it, or Deshaun for failing to execute it ?
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Walk-On [149]
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Re: You blaming the staff for calling it or DW for throwing it ?
Nov 16, 2016, 5:00 PM
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I blame it on the failure to get the first down on 3rd & 1 with a run play and then failure to get the first down on 4th & 1 with a run play. come on! we couldn't run the ball all game! and the jumbo package; they knew it was coming; defense was ready for it. if we going to run it at that moment, why not let Watson run it? or throw 2 short passes. they had not stopped the passing game all game. i say that's when we lost the game. not the 2 interceptions. not the bad officiating. my 2-cents!
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110%er [6153]
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You must be talking to MRMATT, cause I don't disagree w/ you***
Nov 16, 2016, 5:16 PM
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Orange Blooded [2753]
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I'm blaming the staff . . .
Nov 17, 2016, 9:46 AM
[ in reply to You blaming the staff for calling it or DW for throwing it ? ] |
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but of course they didn't call an interception, but no one made that claim. The point is that even great QB's can make a bad throw, especially down there in the red zone where the space is limited and the defensive personnel doesn't have to cover as much ground. Even w/ a good QB, the downside of the risk is too great (losing a high probability of getting a two score lead and/or running another minute or two off the clock - i.e. 11 point lead with 4 minutes and change possibly), and the upside of throwing is almost nonexistant (you could get a TD, but an 11 point lead with 4 minutes will do if you manage the clock right), ESPECIALLY compared to the risk of an interception.
So yeah, DW made a bad choice, but that happens, you can only criticize so much over that. There was just zero strategic reason to throw it there and incur any more risk than necessary, and every strategic reason not to. This isn't a hindsight sort of thing. I and probably thousands of other fans was saying as I/we watched to keep in on the ground now that we were that far into the red zone. That's foresight.
And, if you read my explanation, I didn't say this was the "one" play that lost us the game to the exclusion of plenty of others.
If we'd run three conservative plays and settled for a FG (and run the clock down after any play in which we didn't get a TD), we'd have had about 4 minutes and change left, with an 11 point lead, and in all likelihood would have won the game. In that case, considering that kind of conservatism would have preserved a win, any criticism of playing to conservative would have been simply wrong. I can guarantee that you wouldn't have heard it from me. But yes, you're right, some, maybe many, would have complained that way. And what actually went down is a good example of how wrong they are.
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Legend [17626]
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How do we know that the staff called it?
Nov 16, 2016, 5:00 PM
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DW has the ability to check off at the line and did it many times in the game according to WCCP. (I know, not an authoritative source).
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Orange Blooded [2753]
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What I mean is more specific than that . . .
Nov 17, 2016, 9:52 AM
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You're right, it could have been a check-off. I'm not sure. But I think in a case like that, when the game is on the line and the reasons to throw are all risk and very little reward, the staff ought to proactively make sure that throwing is not an option - is not allowed. Whatever autonomy the QB has to make a pass choice alteration at the line ought to be off the table. Not that DW isn't capable in general terms of seeing and exuecuting the best option. But that situation was not just another run of the mill play. 5:58 left, 2nd and goal at the three, an 8 point lead, two plays to get a rushing TD from the 3 yard line, and if that fails, at FG that would give you a two score lead in your back pocket, knowing that if it comes to that, by then, the clock would be something more like 4:30 or less.
So, if DW called a pass, then he shouldn't have been allowed to - in that situation.
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Scout Team [150]
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Re: Remember, this is why we lost . . .
Nov 16, 2016, 5:19 PM
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http://www.thestate.com/sports/college/acc/clemson-university/article114676983.html
3-10-CLEM20 (05:37) 4-N.Peterman incomplete. Intended for 85-J.Weah. Penalty on CLE 12-K.Wallace Holding 10 yards enforced at CLE 30. No Play.
The int was big, the score should have been 49 to 33 but instead Pitt had a 14 pt swing helped by the phantom def holding penalty on Wallace. It was 3-10 and in the replay it was clear there was no holding.
There were too many moments like this along with questionable decisions made, like going for it on 4-1 at the Pitt 35. FG puts the game away as well as a punt that pins Pitt inside the 20.
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Orange Blooded [2860]
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Re: Remember, this is why we lost . . .
Nov 16, 2016, 5:22 PM
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In retrospect, that has to be the worst interception in DW4's entire career. Not just because of the criticality of the game situation, but what the heck, there was no chance to thread the needle to Leggett. A sack would have been a better outcome. Oh well beat WF and let it become ancient history.
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Orange Blooded [4851]
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Re: Remember, this is why we lost . . .
Nov 16, 2016, 5:24 PM
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Don't act like the cry baby Democrats and whine about losing.We lost the game so lets move on and think about Wake.If our Team whined like that, one loss could become two.
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Orange Blooded [2753]
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You're not very perceptive . . .
Nov 17, 2016, 9:58 AM
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There's a difference between whining from criticism. The democrats are whining. I'm criticizing.
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All-TigerNet [13038]
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That ball should've never been thrown. I appreciate
Nov 16, 2016, 5:29 PM
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Leggett coming to DW4's defense and saying he ran his route too deep, but that ball gets intercepted no matter where he breaks off and sits down. I don't know what Watson saw (or didn't see) there, but there was no way to get that ball to Leggett.
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CU Guru [1701]
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It was changed at the line by Deshaun and he just made a
Nov 16, 2016, 5:44 PM
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Poor decision. You're trying to blame 1 individual or 1 group (coaches) for the loss but it's a combination of everything. If you want to say this 1 play by Deshaun lost us the game what do you think would have happened had Deshaun not thrown up over half a thousand yards on Pitts defense? No one playcall, mistake or terrible call from the refs lost us the game. It's human nature to want to blame 1 person or group for everything when something negative happens but it's almost never the case.
Your point would have possibly been valid had you said this one play was our most costly mistake but to say the entire reason we lost the game is because of 1 play is beyond stupid.
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Orange Blooded [2753]
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If you read my original post, I made it clear that
Nov 17, 2016, 9:55 AM
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one can't solely single out one play as "at fault" TO THE EXCLUSION of others. But there is a difference between competitive mistakes - missed assignments, bad throws, not being able to get a 3rd or 4th down push, vs. purposely making a high risk/low reward choice over a low-risk/high reward choice.
The staff should have a standing practice to tell the players they aren't permitted to check off to a pass play in situations where the upside is almost zero and the downside is huge. No matter how frustrated we all our about the 3rd and 1, 4th and 1, it's easier to choose low risk/high reward plays when the situation demands it, than to get the push you need on 4th down. Sometimes the other D comes up to the line and gets the job done. But the ball can't be picked if it's not put in the air, and fumbles are comparatively so much less likely.
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Letterman [268]
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Re: Remember, this is why we lost . . .
Nov 16, 2016, 5:50 PM
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You are so so right my friend and I couldn't agree with you more. I have also stated in a few post of my own that the play calling at pivotal points during games have been poor at best and I don't understand why. The team in my opinion is entirely to good to be letting some of these lower tier teams hang around in games because of poor offensive productivity due play calling.
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110%er [6138]
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I was surprised when Watson dropped back on that play***
Nov 17, 2016, 10:11 AM
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