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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Contradictions in the Bible
Jun 22, 2022, 12:57 PM
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You can probably find lists of contradictions. Some of them I think are nit picking and reaching a bit….sometimes taking verses out of context. But here are a few I came across reading it myself.
1. The god of the OT permits divorce, the god of NT does not.
2. Jesus said true worship is in spirit and in truth. Paul when forming the early churches made it clear that gathering was important, which led to the religious meetings we have today…aka modern worship services.
3. Jesus gave people who were already drinking more wine promoting drunkenness, where as other parts of the Bible condemn it.
4. The OT says an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth but Jesus said to turn the other cheek.
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All-In [38192]
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all of it?***
Jun 22, 2022, 1:47 PM
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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If you were to see evidence that those are either not
Jun 22, 2022, 2:10 PM
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contradictions or are purposeful, and see the reasons for that purpose, would it matter to you?
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Orange Blooded [3212]
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Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Jun 22, 2022, 2:13 PM
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I'm no biblical scholar but I'll give it a shot
1. The New Testament does allow for divorce - for adultery
2. Two separate things to me. You do not have to be in a church to worship God but can do so in spirit and in truth as you mentioned Jesus said. Paul was speaking to founders of churches, early Christians. The importance of leaning on each other was important to build the church and spread the word.
3. How is that promoting drunkenness? There's no record of anyone being drunk, no evidence to suggest he would be responsible for what or how much someone drank.
4. Eye for an eye = a system of laws for the Jewish people. Turn the other cheek is a personal requirement in my opinion meaning don't take your own revenge.
Message was edited by: ecsguru®
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Hall of Famer [21577]
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Yea sounds like a GREAT idea.....
Jun 22, 2022, 2:35 PM
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to revolve my life around a book written by desert dwellers that didn't have a basic understanding of... well anything...and then their stories were rewritten, translated and manipulated for centuries, countless times by rulers looking to maintain control.
What could go wrong?
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Orange Blooded [3212]
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Re: Yea sounds like a GREAT idea.....
Jun 22, 2022, 3:51 PM
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I get where you're coming from. Better ways to go about disagreeing with someone than trashing their belief system. But, hey it's what we do.
Yes, the Bible has been adulterated by man over countless years. Power was a key dynamic in the Catholic church for a long time and may be to this day. But, there are translations of the Bible from it's original Hebrew Aramaic and Greek languages. Even if one doesn't believe in God or religion there are still many words of wisdom to read and use, examples of good over evil, examples of how to present and carry ones self.
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Hall of Famer [21577]
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I don't disagree with you on the later....
Jun 22, 2022, 4:03 PM
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Excuse my lack of tact but I've grown tired of the hypocrisy from these "Christian" nationalists.
Just my opinion, but religion holds humanity back from expanding its quality of life. This dualistic mindset has kept 99% of the world enslaved.
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All-In [29860]
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Re: I don't disagree with you on the later....
Jun 22, 2022, 10:54 PM
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I see religion slightly differently.
Far from "desert dwellers that didn't have a basic understanding of... well anything", I'm very impressed that their ideas, right or wrong, complex or simplistic, have lasted as long and spread as widely as they have.
It shows they tapped into something human that resonates with people...that is, they believe it. It works for them.
And yes, there has been tremendous hypocrisy and abuse through the centuries. But it's the same with drugs, or drunk driving, or guns...
Is the problem the implement, or the person who is using the implement?
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Correct. There is little question that the current
Jun 22, 2022, 4:56 PM
[ in reply to Re: Yea sounds like a GREAT idea..... ] |
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translations reasonbly reflect the original greet and hebrew, or that the original language tests reasonably reflect what was originally written. Those questions have been asked and answered.
Most of the issues are personal, people hating on each other. That's what this is about.
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Oculus Spirit [93672]
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What, in this world, isn't manipulated for control?
Jun 23, 2022, 9:56 AM
[ in reply to Yea sounds like a GREAT idea..... ] |
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The manipulators are the problem. 'Power is money.' Imo, greed might be the third most powerful force on earth, right behind jealousy which is, imo, second, and love which is first.
Which of those three do you think is most powerful?
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Let's take item #3.
Jun 22, 2022, 5:12 PM
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Jesus is at a party, everyone is having a good time, and the host runs out of wine. He bails them out. So now he's contributing to bad behavior. No good deed goes unpunished. With attitudes like that, no wonder he got himself executed.
You're not the first to say this, by the way. Jesus said, "John came neither eating nor drinking, and you called him crazy. I both eat and drink, and you call me a glutton and a drunk." He was talking to the people who would eventually have him executed. You have now said the same thing with the same attitude. Perhaps you would have joined in the plot. If you want to know whether you would have, frame your other three as questions, and you'll be surprised at what you might discover about him and about yourself.
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All-In [29860]
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Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Jun 22, 2022, 10:39 PM
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I'll pitch in on this one Big. Yes, there are real contradictions, and sometimes only apparent contradictions. But that's not disqualifying, it's simply human. It's like saying a car doesn't exist because I described the car as a Ford Charger, or as a Dodge Miata. My description is imperfect, but it doesn't change the possible existence of said car. Contradictions are simply differences in human interpretation in many cases.
I'm hoping to get to the Bible specifically in a few weeks. I'm going to finish Mesopotamia, then move into the Levant, covering Yahwism, then Judaism, then Christianity, because that's how the developmental history unfolded.
The short version is that the Bible is a composite of many people's interpretations of God, or god, over a great deal of time - millennia in fact. My whole purpose for my posts is to demonstrate how man's thought has changed over that time as he has tried to understand what is essentially not understandable.
As I have said before, we can all agree that 1)there is mystery in the universe, and 2)no one knows everything. So the question is, what do you do about that mystery with very limited tools of understanding that we do have?
Do you ignore the mysteries you see before your eyes every day? Do you attribute them to a mystic spirit? Do you anthropomorphize them into an old man? Or do you simply shrug and that accept you cannot understand them at all? All very personal answers, but what you see when you read the Bible is one way for those who have tried, and are still trying.
The Bible is sort of a cumulative attempt of Western man, and Western thought, to understand what he feels but cannot fully express. It occurs in the Eastern tradition as well but in a radically different way.
The purpose of covering the civilizations first is to understand their daily and political lives to better understand their philosophical thinking...because it is all connected. And it is all very political as well.
The writers of the Bible were dramatically impacted by the political events around them. The fall of Israel to Assyria, the fall of Judah to Babylon, the release of Judah by Persia, and the ultimate destruction of Judea by Rome were life-altering political events in those people's lives, and they looked for reasons to explain what was happening to them and why. And they all do it differently.
The multiple viewpoints are fascinating, especially for a singular event. For instance, Judah attributed the defeat of the 10 Lost Tribes of Israel, their sister nation, to Israel not following Yahweh's wishes. The Biblical Books of Kings and Chronicles are a king-by-king review of who followed Yahweh, and who didn't.
The saving of Jerusalem from Assyria by King Hezekiah is attributed in the Bible to nothing short of divine intervention by those in Judah. But from the Assyrian point of view, Hezekiah paid them tribute, they broke off the siege, and they went away.
But when the tables were turned and Assyria was being defeated by Babylon, well then, Marduk was unhappy and had abandoned his people. Not because of a lack of obedience as the Judeans saw their downfall, but as a lack of appeasement in this case. So the Jews saw their failing as a lack of obedience, and the Assyrians saw their failing as a lack of tribute.
Now, who knows if "the" or "a" god intervened in either event, but what it does show is what those people thought happened. And that's important. Because they were trying to understand and figure it all out.
If you look at the Bible as a collection of contradictions you will find them. But if you look at it as insight into the human mind, you will find that. And if you look at it as a spiritual guide, you may find that was well.
It's very much like the wave-particle duality of Young's two-slit experiment. You will find what you are looking for.
It's an incredible, incredible book, with a history that I hope will grab you as much as it has grabbed me, as I continue posting about it. But in the panoply of religions and how man has tried to explain the unexplainable, it is only one of many books and writings. And its contradictions, both real and apparent, don't really prove or disprove anything. They simply show how those particular people tried to answer many of the questions we all have.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Similarly, if one searches the Declaration of Independence
Jun 23, 2022, 12:55 AM
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for contradictions one will find them. That's just how the limitation of language works. We understand when word usage changes from one paragraph to another, but if one wants to disallow that, contrary to reasonable and general understanding, one is left with his chosen bias.
A son whines to his dad, "Bobby (brother) hit me!"
"Yeah, I know."
"Well, punish him."
"I saw you push him first. You have nothing to whine about. You're even. Both of you drop it now or I'll end it for you."
Later dad goes to see Bobby.
"You shouldn't have hit him."
"It was fair! He had it coming!"
"Yeah, it was. I'm not getting onto you about that. But you chose the low road, the one that will kill you both. Forgiveness doesn't mean you have to be happy about it, it just means you choose to not impose the punishment due. Trust me, son, you're going to need someone to do that for you one day. And many times after. We tend to get what we give."
"What does that mean?"
"Remember last week? I asked if you took a 5 out of mom's purse. You owned up to it, said you were sorry. And what did I do?"
"I gave it back, you said we'd keep it between us, not tell mom."
"There you go. If I did that for you, you can't extend a bit of that to your little brother?"
No one would call those two interactions contradictory. One is societal, the other is personal. We understand that. A person who reads where Jesus says this, and calls that contradictory, is exposing a bias, because the message is clear in any other context.
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Jun 28, 2022, 6:44 AM
[ in reply to Re: Contradictions in the Bible ] |
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It is an interesting book, however when you actually sit down and read it it becomes simple and boring honestly and there's a lot of weird stuff in there...
God tried to kill Moses but couldn't??? What?
Noah banged his daughter. ###?
The stories about Jesus are extremely simple and give little to no details. He walked here and said this and then he went here is basically how a lot of it reads.
The thing I discovered when reading it for what it is, especially the New Testament, is that christians today add a lot into the text that just isn't there. When the bible is actually "studied", it's done so with assumptions about what it means already in mind, not just taken for what it says.
One of the biggest things that made me start to walk away was when I found out Jesus and the early christians drank alcohol, but the majority of christians today teach abstinence and when confronted about the verses that support the former view they claim "it was fermented". How do you get drunk on unfermented wine?
The church I grew up in had a rule that there could no alcohol at weddings, yet their savior not only turned water into wine at a wedding, he gave it to people that had already been drinking.
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Jun 28, 2022, 6:45 AM
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Meant to say "it wasn't fermented".
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Oculus Spirit [93672]
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Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Jun 28, 2022, 8:09 AM
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Yeah, we got that. It's not wine if it's not fermented. Imo, changing the meanings of a word in no way to reach God's truth. The 'it doesn't say what I want to believe so it is obviously wrong,' doesn't work for me. Also, the 'Times are changed and that doesn't really apply today,' won't float either. The nonsensical way that people have altered the gospel precepts by watering the Bible down is simply a matter of men trying to change the law to fit what they believe. Man does not establish truth; God established Truth.
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Oculus Spirit [93672]
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How interesting that you would point out that Noah...
Jun 28, 2022, 8:02 AM
[ in reply to Re: Contradictions in the Bible ] |
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had sex with his daughter and also address the drinking of alcohol later.
Both of Noah's daughters worked to get ole Noah drunk and conceive children by him. I'd never suggest that drinking leads to incest but the relationship between a drunk and others in his life radically changes when a man habitually drinks until he is drunk.
My point is not that drinking is a sin or an abomination. My point is the at some point no matter who you are the drink is going to govern your actions. Most of us have gotten drunk and regretted our actions during that drunken state the next day.
The foundation of your church's belief that no alcohol is welcome is because of the lessons learned from studying the Church at Corinth. They turned The Lord's Supper into a drunken feast. The probability that someone is going to get drunk and show his asz increases as the number of people at the party grows.
Is drinking a sin? NO. Do I drink? Seldom and always regret it for even though I am lucky enough to not get drunk and do evil or stupid my blood pressure is uncomfortably high for days after.
Are you permitted to drink? That's between you and God but I'd suggest you respect a church which doesn't want drinking at church parties.
I intend to study your OP and respond with clarity to ensure I'm not mistaken or misunderstood. My writing is the suck and my understanding is limited.
I also agree that most folks read the Bible to 'PROVE,' what they already know and most of their prayers are that 2+2 will not equal 4. I was that foolish once. I was born again and joined a Southern Baptist Church and have been SB since. I absorbed everything a SB preacher said like it was straight from God's mouth. However, as I began to study the Bible and learned that God's Spirit is the Rosetta Stone by which we can know and understand what God wants us to know and understand, The Truth was revealed to me. Most of what I'd heard was correct but as I studied I understood the whys and the truth became more clear an immutable to me.
Have you asked God to explain those 'inconsistencies,' and 'contradictions,' to you? If now you will continue to be blind to The Truth. I applaud your reading it for yourself but I beg you to use God's Rosetta Stone and allow Him to open your mind. Fault in others is sometimes painful and disappointing and always easy to spot. Allowing God to open your eye is sometimes painful but never disappointing or easy to spot. Therein is joy, comfort and hope.
For The Lord is good, His mercy is everlasting and His truth endureth to all generations. Paraphrased from Psa 100
God still loves you and you still belong to Him. If you consider the price He paid for you can you believe that He will not seek you out and bring you home?
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Orange Blooded [3073]
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Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Jul 16, 2022, 8:50 AM
[ in reply to Re: Contradictions in the Bible ] |
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I'm not trying to provoke an argument with you. I ask seriously...one of the "biggest" reasons you abandoned religion was the existence of wine during the lifetime of Jesus? Really? That was the deal-breaker? Denominations and individual opinions vary, but to my knowledge there is no overarching Christian prohibition against consuming alcohol. We are not to become intoxicated and there is a difference. Some just think the best way to ensure you don't become intoxicated is to abstain.
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Jul 17, 2022, 10:57 AM
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It showed me that even people who claim to be committed to going by what the Bible says will twist and misrepresent it.
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Oculus Spirit [93672]
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Wine is not forbidden, neither by Law nor Grace.
Jul 17, 2022, 7:48 PM
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Preachers, deacons and other church leaders are to be chosen according to qualifications Paul gave to Timothy. One of those qualification was that a man not be 'given to much wine.'
He wrote to the Church as Ephesus directions which your church may have followed in having no wine or other strong drink. He said, 'Be not filled with wine wherein is excess but be filled with the Holy Spirit.' Paraphrased
I believe the denomination in which you were raised did this correctly. It's not that drinking wine is a sin but it is a certainty that not yielding to God's leading through the Holy Spirit certainly is.
BTW, when Paul told Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach's sake and for his often infirmity it is highly possible the water Timothy drank was skanky and gave him the trots. Think setting up a church in Mexico in the 2nd century.
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: Wine is not forbidden, neither by Law nor Grace.
Jul 18, 2022, 8:31 AM
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Luke chapter 34 alludes to the fact that Jesus liked to hang out with sinners and drink wine. The Pharisees came along and called him a drunk.
Sounds like a modern day holier than thou tee totaler judging someone today.
For some reason it seems the modern day American Christian puts more emphasis on the teaching of Paul than Jesus.
It doesn’t take a scholar to recognize the tension between the teachings of the two….
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Oculus Spirit [93672]
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I agree and it's a shame.
Jul 18, 2022, 2:28 PM
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"Everybody needs something by which they look down upon others." Yours is not the first example of it. Paul wrote about such nonsense in his first letter to the Church at Corinth. Chapter 3:
"1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?"
This is exactly what you're talking about. Rather than criticize your drinking habits a man or woman of God should be directing you to Jesus who is the only one that can save your soul.
It's too easy to find sin in another. In fact, it is just as easy as ignoring the sin in your own life. Looking for the splinter in the eye of another is difficult when there's a log in your own eye. I got enough logs to mind my own business.
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Oculus Spirit [93672]
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Read the 14th chapter of Romans.
Jul 20, 2022, 7:12 AM
[ in reply to Re: Wine is not forbidden, neither by Law nor Grace. ] |
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During my 20s I had a church pastor who was about my age. We became friends and fished together sometimes. One sunny Saturday afternoon I dropped by his house and asked if he wanted to go fishing after church Sunday. He said no.
I told him there was nothing wrong with fishing on Sunday. He said, 'I know that but everyone doesn't.' A Christian bears great responsibility to behave so as not to offend the weaker and spiritually immature brothers. I'm guessing that why the Christians here tolerate me.
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: Read the 14th chapter of Romans.
Aug 6, 2022, 9:38 AM
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I think that's just a prime example of why and how christianity and any religion grows and branches off into many different beliefs and to me if it were true it wouldn't do that. It would be clear what's right and wrong.
And the fact that so many christians go by their traditions instead of what their religious text actually says doesn't help the case for it being true at all.
I've had discussions with christians about whether or not Jesus drank wine and showed them in the bible where it clearly says he did and they still walk away refusing to believe it. That's scary...
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Oculus Spirit [93672]
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All-In [29860]
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Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Jul 27, 2022, 8:00 PM
[ in reply to Re: Contradictions in the Bible ] |
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If you have an interest in human behavior it can be very interesting. It's an attempt to understand something that is not fully understandable. There's even a verse that says "now we see through a glass darkly, but soon in full" - paraphrased.
But once you understand who all wrote it, and why, and what their lives were like, it makes a whole lot more sense. You may not subscribe to it, but you may understand it better.
It's an extremely complex document because it wasn't written by just one person, at just one time, and not chronologically. It's more of a library of works, assembled and cobbled together to tell a particular story and express a particular belief system.
You don't have to believe in what it says, but I hope you can gain an appreciation for how it was created and what it tries to do. I have.
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Aug 6, 2022, 9:51 AM
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I've read that the Old Testament was written starting around 700 BC give or take....obviously thousands of years after a lot of the events occurred.
It is an interesting book, just too inconsistent and illogical.
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All-In [29860]
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Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Jun 23, 2022, 2:24 AM
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I'll go a step further on contradictions, Big. When I find one in the Bible, it's actually very exciting. Not because it proves something is incorrect, or it proves a mistake, or it provides a theological "gotcha" of some sort.
It's exciting because it shows a change in people's thought process from one time period to another. So when I see one book in the Bible allowing something, and one book disallowing it, I perk up in my seat and take a closer look.
That's the kind of thing that is very interesting. The Bible is not just a sterile, dry, completely homogenous and consistent document. It's a document that was written and amended from as far back as 1200 BCE or more, right up to 90 or 100 AD if you include both the Old and New Testaments.
Think how differently Colonial Americans dressed, spoke, lived, and viewed the world than today's folks. And that was only about 250 years ago. We're talking 5 times as long as that from 1200 BCE to 100 AD.
So the first question I have is "What was happening in this time period, say 500 BCE just as an example, that was different in 1000 BCE, or whatever the actual dates may be.
What caused that change? Why did it affect either how they viewed the nature of God, as they understood God, from one time to another? That's exciting stuff.
It's exciting in a sociological sense of how people see the world and perhaps relate to each other, and exciting in a theological sense in how they understood what they believed to be God at that point in time.
The Jewish vision of God in the Old Testament is most decidedly not the Christian version in the New Testament. But that doesn't mean either is wrong. It simply means they were different people, at different times, both trying to understand the same thing.
I know a person better the second time I meet them than the first time. There are kernels of that simple truth in theology as well. That's why Buddists meditate - not to relax, but to achieve a more focused state of clarity and insight with each meditation. It's why many Christians read their Bible...the search for greater insight. And it's why scientists run experiments...all searching for deeper insight in to the mysteries of the universe, at the large and small scales.
Depending on your specific beliefs, those changes over time could mean that God presented himself differently to different people at different times, or, that people simply interpreted the ever present mystery in different ways at different times. It could be both, too.
Either way, I find both possibilities very exciting and intriguing. How boring would the Bible be if it were simply a tightly edited and redacted technical manual on "How to interact with God?" It's stories about actual people, struggling with their lives and their place in the universe, and trying to make sense of it all using the knowledge they had available to them.
I find that immensely enlightening - that people 5000+ years ago were asking the very same questions we ask today. And contradictions often highlight that better than anything else in texts.
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Hall of Famer [24076]
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Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Jun 24, 2022, 6:47 AM
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1. Simply not true
2. I don't think you understand what "church" means. And your point is not a contradiction
3. If you are referring to Jesus turning water into wine. That story is not about drinking. It's about making something that was unclean, clean. There are various warnings about drunkenness. But that's just common sense.
4. Just because something is talked about in the Bible doesn't mean that it's meant to be a moral imperative.
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Oculus Spirit [93672]
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The fact that you used no question marks is quite telling.
Jun 25, 2022, 8:46 AM
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The story of the rich young man is fascinating. For those who wonder why Jesus told the rich man to sell all and give to the poor I will detail the story so they may understand.
Here is the background which must be understood to see the picture this story paints. There is scriptural background support for all of these facts. Bible reader and students know these.
1 Jesus was a Jew.
2 The Jewish/Hebrew/Children of Israel were God's chosen people.
3 Jesus was The Christ promised throughout the Old Testament and was sent to fulfill the law by executing man's obligation to the law by being perfect and living an absolutely perfect life without sin in God's eyes.
4 Had Jesus sinned by violating/breaking Levitical/Mosiac Law He would have been condemned as are we. He would not have been a suitable sacrifice for sin, a lamb without blemish.
5 The rich young man lied when asked if he had obeyed the law. He said he had done so from his birth.
6 Jesus saw that the rich man did not love God as much as he loved himself and his wealth which put him in violation of the first commandment 'Thou shall have no other gods before me.'
Jesus didn't bring up the law and tell the man to obey the law to enter God's kingdom. It was the rich man who brought up the law in an effort to persuade Jesus that by obeying the law a man deserved to enter The Kingdom.
Jesus worked with what the man laid out, knowing that the man was a liar and knowing that his worship was for his wealth. Jesus knew the man had means by which to offer great sacrifices before the altar, deposit much money into the coffers of the Pharisees and influence them to proclaim his righteousness before the people which earned him respect in the community.
Remember Jesus being impressed by the widow's mite? He saw her heart too. She gave it all to God. She gave her last mite, her life and her will to God. She put Him first.
If I've gotten some of this wrong show me what and we'll fix it.
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Legend [19933]
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Re: The fact that you used no question marks is quite telling.
Jun 25, 2022, 11:35 PM
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Nice job of laying that out there.
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Legend [17915]
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Re: The fact that you used no question marks is quite telling.
Jun 26, 2022, 9:21 AM
[ in reply to The fact that you used no question marks is quite telling. ] |
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Sorry for being so late to this conversation, but I would also add that not only was the man violating the First of the Ten, but also the Last of the Ten - Thou shalt not covet. You alluded to this but want to bring it to the front as well. (Interesting how those two commandments bookend the whole)
...and to break one is to break them all.
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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Oculus Spirit [93672]
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1. The god of the OT permits divorce, the god of NT does not
Jul 16, 2022, 10:25 AM
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That statement is not true. First and most important there is only one God. It is explicitly stated throughout The Bible. 'In the beginning God,' is sufficient for me.
We must first define divorce in Bible context. That might be the hard part.
"1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.
3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."
What man can by these words not justify handing a woman a bill of divorcement? I've always heard from the pulpit that what was meant by these words is such that in the old days, during the time of engagement a woman did the nasty with someone other than her future husband he had a right to divorce her. So divorce according to Mosaic Law was the results of marring a woman who claimed virginity and turned out to be less than virgin. How did a man figure that out? Not really a question, is it?
From Matt chpt 5:
"31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."
Jesus said, "...saving for the cause of fornication... which actually is exactly what the OT says.
The problem you're struggling with is common today because we'd all love to justify our divorces and justify our marriage to women who have been divorced. For justification of our sin have perverted the meaning of Jesus words.
We so desperately want Jesus to have said we can divorce a woman if she commits adultery but read it again. He said '...Whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication,..." What follows that is the result of divorce by any means other than fornication which causes her to commit
adultery.
I take no pleasure in this other than knowing it's the truth. I married a woman who was dead a year before I found out she had three previous husbands. Throughout the 30 years I was married to her I knew of only two. I also have a living wife, my first marriage. It leaves many of us in the same boat. I'll row, you can row when I tire.
These are cold hard facts which are bitter to our tongues and create much too much bile when swallowed. The Word of God is just as offensive to me as to anyone else.
These are the cold, hard, unadulterated truths...and it is exactly what Moses delivered from God to the Children of Israel.
I am sorry if you, your previous pastor(s), your church(s) and your family do not know or understand this. That is simply a falsehood that adultery is grounds for divorce in God's eyes.
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Orange Blooded [3615]
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Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Jul 20, 2022, 7:22 AM
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Hard to believe people still believe in the Bible, the Koran, the Book of Mormon, the New World Translation of Holy Scriptures, Scientology nonsense. Its all nonsense. Its all ridiculous.
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Oculus Spirit [93672]
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Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Jul 20, 2022, 2:40 PM
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If not for scoffers the Bible would contain a lie.
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Oculus Spirit [93672]
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"Jesus said true worship is in spirit and in truth. Paul...
Jul 22, 2022, 10:15 AM
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when forming the early churches made it clear that gathering was important, which led to the religious meetings we have today…aka modern worship services."
Chapter 4 of John.
"19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
There is no limit to where God can be worshiped, neither by gentile nor Jew. He was telling that woman, and you, that salvation is extended to gentiles.
Paul was the apostle of the gentiles and you're suggesting he contradicted Jesus by asking people to gather. Do you think Paul should have preached alone in the desert? What good is preaching if no one is there to hear?
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: "Jesus said true worship is in spirit and in truth. Paul...
Aug 6, 2022, 10:01 AM
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Why does the bible need to be preached?
Why do we need to pay someone a full time salary to stand up and give a 30 minute sermon a couple times a week?
Why can't I just read it myself?
And if all this is true why are there so many opinions and interpretations?
Seems like God would make it abundantly clear....
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Oculus Spirit [93672]
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Reading it for yourself is always blessed by God...
Aug 7, 2022, 1:08 PM
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if you're reading it to explore God's nature, His composition, His glory, His love, salvation, gifts of His Holy Spirit and His written Word.
You've read this passage and should try to understand:
It's Romans Chpt 10:
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."
So how would the lost be saved if not for preaching? Preaching is not limited to a building or a pulpit or even to those called to preach.
You preach here occasionally, reasoning that God is unjust, not worthy of your faith, or honor or worship. Others preach of ignorance and some of coincidence; rather that the world just happened, that we don't know what happened but the proof that it just happened is that the world exist here.
You know you aren't getting away from God. He created you and you slipped away. He saved you with His blood to make you acceptable to come rushing into His throne room and sliding across the floor like a 5th grade boy to ask what you will of Him. Give it up and surrender today. He paid too much to let you perish.
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: Reading it for yourself is always blessed by God...
Aug 13, 2022, 2:11 PM
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If it was true why wouldn’t god make it abundantly clear instead of relying on these preachers with many different opinions, interpretations, and agendas?
Don’t proselytize me, address what I’m saying.
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Oculus Spirit [93672]
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God's children recognize the facts of this matter.
Aug 14, 2022, 3:28 PM
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We know we can not fully understand everything the Bible offers regarding knowledge. Neither I nor anyone else can know it all. I believe God, like any good father knows and addresses our need for understanding daily. Some might need understanding of one thing and another might need to understand something else.
If He is going to provide for those needs for millions of His children from one book wouldn't a reasonable person say that I, or you, do not need to understand what another needs to know and understand?
What is abundantly clear is that He sent His only begotten son to die for me and for you.
The Big Dog, God is a personal god. He doesn't run an orphanage. He is my Father. He is not reluctant in letting me know what He wants me to know and that is usually exactly what I need. If you can't be satisfied with that then stick with what you think you know. That's all I'm doing here.
All churches are filled with members who are children of God. I'd say, unless the membership and those attending services is less than 8 people then not all members are born again.
There is no 'right denomination.' I believe God has sprinkled believers in many churches. He also leads many preachers to share what He wants with their listeners. That is not to say that all preachers are led of God and not all listeners have ears with which to hear or hearts with which to conceive God's messages.
As I said, God has made the foundation of our hope abundantly clear. Christ has come in the flesh, suffered and died to pay the penalty for our sin, risen from the grave and ascended to The Right Hand of God The Father.
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: God's children recognize the facts of this matter.
Aug 14, 2022, 6:12 PM
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I don't think the bible is confusing. It is clear in it what it says.
It's mostly read with assumptions about what it means already established in the reader's mind.
For example....in another thread I posted that Jesus claimed he would return within the lifetime of his disciples. To someone who already believes that Jesus has not returned but will in the future they will try and find some other meaning for this passage.
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CU Medallion [60043]
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Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Jul 23, 2022, 6:57 AM
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You can find a contradiction in anything you choose. It’s all about faith.
Have a great day!
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Orange Blooded [2155]
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Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Aug 6, 2022, 9:54 AM
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I've heard faith is analogous to sitting in a chair and trusting it will support your weight....
However you wouldn't sit in a wobbly chair would you?
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CU Guru [1207]
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Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Jul 23, 2022, 5:13 PM
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1 Corinthians 2:14
New King James Version
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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