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All-In [46834]
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All-In [46834]
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Still waiting for that "abortion is my only voting issue"
May 15, 2019, 9:17 AM
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poster. Can't remember who it was or I would tag them.
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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as in slavery, womens sufferage,the victims dont get to vote***
May 15, 2019, 9:26 AM
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All-In [46834]
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If we are being consistant and life begins at conception
May 15, 2019, 9:28 AM
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and a fertilized egg is a person, are they going to outlaw plan B as well?
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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I think anybody who does In Vitro is the biggest
May 15, 2019, 10:04 AM
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hypocrite in that situation as they are literally disposing of fertilized embryos, at least with plan B there is a high chance it hasn't been fertilized.
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All-TigerNet [11211]
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All-In [28802]
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Which ones?***
May 15, 2019, 2:05 PM
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Which ones?***
May 15, 2019, 3:05 PM
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They don't want gov funding for birth control.
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All-In [28802]
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Also not true***
May 15, 2019, 3:07 PM
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Also not true***
May 15, 2019, 3:19 PM
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There are a lot of articles on the issue via Google.
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All-In [28802]
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The articles are about mandatory coverage...
May 15, 2019, 3:25 PM
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and forcing religious employers to pay for birth control. Very few people actually oppose birth control.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: The articles are about mandatory coverage...
May 15, 2019, 3:58 PM
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Fair enough. Arent there a bunch of religious people opposed though?
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All-In [28802]
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The only ones I know of are Catholic
May 15, 2019, 4:25 PM
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And I don't even think most of them are opposed to it. It's certainly not much of a movement.
There are some Catholic people who don't want to pay for their employees' birth control, and some who don't want to pay for contraceptives they think could be used as abortofacients. Most of these people are explicitly religious employers, but the case that established the right to an exception from Obamacare's mandate was about Hobby Lobby.
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All-TigerNet [11211]
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Roy Moore has a cadre of stooges in the
May 15, 2019, 5:06 PM
[ in reply to Which ones?*** ] |
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state house, many of whom subscribe to the notion that contraceptive cause children to become women. Look'em up if you like.
This is Alabama, we had a state Senator, Clyde Chambliss, just today say that this ban was fair to victims of rape and incest because they could still have an abortion "up until she knows she's pregnant."
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All-In [28802]
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You're going to need to link that
May 15, 2019, 5:08 PM
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Mostly because your post below was so goofy that I'm not just going to take your word on it.
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All-TigerNet [11211]
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Thats why I told you to look'em up if you like.***
May 15, 2019, 5:22 PM
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Heisman Winner [119768]
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Slac, you’re so full of chit
May 15, 2019, 5:31 PM
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I can smell you thru the interwebs....
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All-TigerNet [11211]
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I live here, it is not an uncommon belief, especially
May 15, 2019, 5:41 PM
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among Roy Moore supporters and his political stooges.
What Clyde Chambliss was talking about was the use of Plan B, he wasn't being stupid phrasing it the way he did, just being an provocative ### hole.
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Heisman Winner [119768]
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So sorry...are you going to protest in Montgomery?***
May 15, 2019, 5:55 PM
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All-TigerNet [11211]
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I just don't vote
May 15, 2019, 5:56 PM
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for the dumb mutherfuggers.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Just so we are clear
May 15, 2019, 9:24 AM
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It's a shame. The more abortions the better.
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All-In [46834]
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Especially in Alabama***
May 15, 2019, 9:28 AM
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Especially in Alabama***
May 15, 2019, 9:48 AM
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I was thinking Bangladesh.
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All-In [28802]
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Pretty racist***
May 15, 2019, 2:05 PM
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Pretty racist***
May 15, 2019, 2:07 PM
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I was thinking overpopulated areas. I don't see race anyway. What do they look like?
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All-In [28802]
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Just so happens, those people aren't like us
May 15, 2019, 2:09 PM
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Of course, it would be better for them to die than for them to have a difficult life. Maybe the Indians could even go back to forced sterilization for certain castes.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Just so happens, those people aren't like us
May 15, 2019, 2:21 PM
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I am all for those people to choose to have abortions. I am all for the world to have more abrotions. Humans are destroying the planet. We don't need so many births. I would help fund some for the novelty.
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All-In [28802]
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I wish more pro-abortion people were so honest***
May 15, 2019, 3:08 PM
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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Most people aren't "pro-abortion", what a stupid phrase
May 15, 2019, 3:18 PM
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to assign Pro-Choice to.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Most people aren't "pro-abortion", what a stupid phrase
May 15, 2019, 3:22 PM
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I am pro abortion in many cases, but pro choice in others. It just depends on the situation.
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All-In [28802]
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Carlsbad is
May 15, 2019, 3:27 PM
[ in reply to Most people aren't "pro-abortion", what a stupid phrase ] |
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Many people have no qualms about abortion, too. Others aren't pro-abortion, but for some reason want to give people easy access to it and oppose any efforts to restrict it. Others are for some efforts to restrict it, but still want it to be legal. Oddly, though, those people still support politicians who oppose any efforts to restrict abortion and think a legal regime where abortion on-demand until birth is one we should keep. They vote as if they're pro-abortion, while saying that want abortion "safe, legal, and rare."
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All-In [42204]
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Re: Carlsbad is
May 16, 2019, 8:04 AM
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I'm not pro-abortion, but don't you think this Alabama law is overshooting the landing here? As in it will come across as so extreme that it's going to produce the opposite desired effect?
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All-In [28802]
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I think that's very possible, yes
May 16, 2019, 11:17 AM
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The Georgia bill is probably better strategy, in terms of getting the Supreme Court to overturn Roe and in terms of not generating a backlash. I need to see some more objective analysis of the Alabama bill, but I certainly would not want to jail a doctor for 99 years for killing a child. I could be wrong, but that's probably longer than a life sentence for 3rd degree murder.
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All-In [42204]
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Re: I think that's very possible, yes
May 16, 2019, 2:35 PM
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Georgia's threat to prosecute a woman who goes to another state is pretty extreme. Completely ruins a "states rights" argument.
I'm not sure why these states think threatening doctors is going to work, especially fertility ones. They will flee the state and take income away from Alabama. The abortions will continue secretly or in other states. These ham-handed measures are as ill-planned as banning certain substances.
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110%er [6155]
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Murder is the more serious crime.
May 15, 2019, 10:01 AM
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Might not be a popular opinion, but that's my take on it.
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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Yeah, actually murdering a person is.***
May 15, 2019, 10:02 AM
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All-In [28802]
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It's pretty obvious
May 15, 2019, 2:04 PM
[ in reply to Murder is the more serious crime. ] |
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But people who want to pretend that killing a child isn't murder, or any other type of serious crime, aren't going to want to acknowledge that.
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All-In [49062]
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This is why this debate is pointless...
May 15, 2019, 2:23 PM
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You're defining abortion as killing a child and the other side doesn't. So no matter how obvious it is that killing a child is wrong, it has nothing to do with the other side's argument.
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All-In [28802]
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And what is the other side's argument?
May 15, 2019, 3:07 PM
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A. It isn't a "child," it's a part of the mother's body that she should be able to choose to clip off like a fingernail. - This is scientifically illiterate. The argument is a relic of the time when we didn't understand human development as well as we do now.
B. It's a child, but the penalty for terminating a child's life should be dependent on how much that child is able to participate in what we normally refer to as "human life." A fetus can't participate in much of that life, so there should be little or no penalty for ending its life. Some (Peter Singer, et al.) argue that we should also be able to end infant's lives for this same reason. - I think a lot of pro-lifers would actually be amenable to some version of this, if it meant that abortion was made illegal. Most do no want the mother to be subject to major penalties, and I think most would accept penalties for abortion providers and other enablers/coerce-ers that were less than other murders. Abortion would be a lower degree of murder than most other murders, but would still be murder. -This argument, at least when it refers to viability as a criteria for certain protections, is dependent on a dynamic medical field. A child who's not viable now might be viable in the future.
C. Some people argue that children in the womb shouldn't have legal personhood. This argument has the advantage of not being totally dependent on scientific facts, since not all human beings have the same legal rights. A child in the womb could have some legal rights, but those rights might also be out-weighed by the right of the mother to choose to do whatever she wants with the child, since it's totally dependent on her. - This argument, even if it's philosophical and not based entirely on objective fact, still has the difficulty of explaining why a particular human life doesn't deserve protection. We usually take away certain rights because someone has committed a crime. Of course, that doesn't apply here. Will people be persuaded that a woman's right to choose to not be inconvenienced by a child trumps a child's right to live? And if we think a child deserves less rights because it's totally dependent, at what point in development does that change?
But long story short, Roe v. Wade made any side of the argument except the one that says women have a right to abortion moot. Much of the factual basis of that decision came from archaic science and medicine. The debate isn't pointless because nobody understands each other, it's pointless because the Supreme Court took away our ability to define these issues for ourselves.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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Neat glossing over and dismissal of A.
May 15, 2019, 3:17 PM
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Until viability, a fetus is essentially that.
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All-In [28802]
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What does viability change?
May 15, 2019, 3:22 PM
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That seems like an arbitrary way of dividing when you think a child should have rights and when it shouldn't. What's so important about viability that it would determine whether somebody deserves rights?
The fact is that, from conception, there's a new human life, albeit at the earliest stage of development ("fetus" is just another name for earliest stages of human development, like "infant," "adolescent," or "adult"). Whether it's viable outside the womb doesn't change that. Plus, the point at which a child is viable will change with medical advances. Are we saying something about the child has actually changed because of medical advances?
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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Literally, life. Viability means that. Without the mother,
May 15, 2019, 3:30 PM
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the fetus wouldn't survive. So yes, it changes quite a lot. I'm aware that medically that timeframe is a sliding bar that will get closer and closer to conception; however, it will never get there.
And no, that's not a fact. If it were, then your age would be reflective of your conception date.
Viability is the hard line of life and the mother's control. Currently it's possible at 24 weeks, with a very very low percentage of successful life. My personal belief is first trimester (0-13 weeks) should be the limitation, which provides a large cushion of viablity to medically advance. Considering a fetus is less than 2" long by the start of the trimester, it'll be a long way until science gets there.
Your current proposal, should we consider all women who have a miscarriage as murder suspects?
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All-In [28802]
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That is not what viability means
May 15, 2019, 3:37 PM
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Viability refers to being able to survive outside the womb. For instance, you can talk about how viable a sperm and an egg are for resulting in a new life, but that doesn't change their status as sperm or egg (or imply anything about their being alive).
How we count your age is conventional, not some sort of biological fact.
The whole miscarriage thing is silly, and I'm sure you know that. Nobody's talking about making natural processes illegal.
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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I'm well aware what viability means Cam, reread what I said.
May 15, 2019, 4:26 PM
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And I have seen the miscarriage thing discussed, so it is being talked about. Literally every miscarriage will need to be investigated to ensure an illegal abortion did not occur.
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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I really hope you don't need In Vitro to conceive a child***
May 15, 2019, 2:26 PM
[ in reply to It's pretty obvious ] |
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All-In [28802]
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Won't be doing that because of ethical issues
May 15, 2019, 3:09 PM
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There are lots and lots of kids out there who need to be adopted.
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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Based on your posts though, you believe In Vitro should
May 15, 2019, 3:21 PM
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be an illegal procedure. That, and Plan B.
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All-In [28802]
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Not Plan B, and not all versions of In Vitro
May 15, 2019, 3:28 PM
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Neither of those always result in killing. I'd take just making abortion illegal, though
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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In Vitro literally destroys fertilized embryos...***
May 15, 2019, 3:31 PM
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All-In [28802]
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Not always
May 15, 2019, 3:40 PM
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Extra embryos can be donated to other people.
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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So they would need to all be 100% utilized if they are
May 15, 2019, 4:29 PM
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fertilized embryos, no exceptions... your beliefs are pretty radical here, and frightening honestly. Considering the problem of the amount of unwanted children already born, and the fact that Republicans are pursuing pro-life so hard yet don't give a shít past the point of birth...yikes.
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All-In [28802]
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Tendentious, yet again
May 15, 2019, 5:00 PM
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Not killing somebody is just slightly different than choosing how that person should be provided for after they're born. It isn't OK to kill someone because they're unwanted, or suffering, or struggling. Yikes.
Yes, IVF is ethically problematic. Just because it might help some people have their own children doesn't mean we should forget about any problems with it.
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All-In [42204]
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Re: Won't be doing that because of ethical issues
May 15, 2019, 5:28 PM
[ in reply to Won't be doing that because of ethical issues ] |
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1. Sorry, man, but you won't get to 100 percent decide that. Any woman you're married to is going to want to carry her own child, and if In Vitro is the only way she can conceive, you're not going to easily dismiss her wishes.
2. I hate the abortion debate because people--regardless of their side--aren't willing to accept that this is a complex issue. They think it is always an either/or issue. Right now, some of you are eagerly typing a response to me demanding that it is.
People can change their minds on abortion, and I find it happens over two methods. A pro-choice person can find themselves easily flipping when they have a child or struggle to have a child. A pro-life person will change their tune very fast if their teenage daughter gets knocked up, or they get a girl pregnant and it will throw a serious wrench in their lives. And yeah, you'd be the same no matter how much you tell yourself you wouldn't be.
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All-In [28802]
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Luckily, my fiancee agrees with me about this
May 15, 2019, 5:50 PM
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I don't think I've said this is a simple issue, at least not in its implementation. Some parts of it really are simple, like whether what a woman is pregnant with is a new human individual or whether it's just a clump of cells until the would-be mother decides it isn't anymore. Other things aren't simple at all, like understanding when an abortion is about the life of the mother, about the life of another unborn child that might depend on aborting a twin, or what to do about people who break the law if you make abortion illegal.
The rest of what you say is true, in a way, but it certainly isn't true for everybody. At least in the latter case, it would be hard not to conclude that you think that people only practice situational ethics. In fact, lots of people don't have abortions because they think abortion is wrong, even in difficult circumstances.
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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Can't wait for the feedback loop of failing for Bama.
May 15, 2019, 10:06 AM
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All reputable doctors will be leaving. More unwanted children will be born. Continuing the uneducated cycle.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Can't wait for the feedback loop of failing for Bama.
May 15, 2019, 10:14 AM
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A lot more public assistance.
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CU Guru [1878]
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For a state that hates 'Welfare Queens'
May 15, 2019, 1:42 PM
[ in reply to Can't wait for the feedback loop of failing for Bama. ] |
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They sure are going to be creating a lot of them by forcing unfit mothers to parent for 18 years.
They are already #2 in the nation in government handouts. Going to push MS for #1.
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All-TigerNet [11211]
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The statehouse in AL is eaten up with stupid; the string
May 15, 2019, 10:19 AM
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of bad decisions and policies have been around as long as I've been here (20 yrs). This law is ONLY put in place to trigger a Supreme Court ruling on Roe. The cost to AL taxpayers to litigate it will be immense, quality of our healthcare will decrease...because what doctor in their right mind would want to practice here, liability insurance for women's docs will go through the roof, as will healthcare costs. Nice job dikheads.
Hopefully, Governor MeMaw (Kay Ivey) will veto the d@mn thing but she has shown little sense herself lately. And the shid of it all is, this law won't help stop a single abortion.
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All-In [28802]
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Yeah, abortion isn't important enough to send to the court***
May 15, 2019, 2:03 PM
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All-TigerNet [11211]
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Correct. It is not important enough to waste
May 15, 2019, 4:19 PM
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taxpayer money litigating an issue that has already been settled for the mere satisfaction of religious zealots. Not to mention the increase in premiums for Docs and create higher healthcare costs for Alabamians. Also, not to mention, that they managed to write a bill changing the state criminal code that will cause a cascade of useless litigation and debate to follow. I hope SCOTUS tells us to eff off.
I don't like abortion as birth control either, but it is pure zealotry to create a law that ultimately will not do anything to reduce abortions and cowardice on their part to criminalize medical professionals. Want to use your religious beliefs to do something to change the acceptance of abortion as birth control? Then show compassion, provide alternative solutions, create adoption laws that make the process easier. Above all, be proactive in providing education, low cost and sometimes free contraception, which in every single real study done on the issue (not the religiously funded ones, the ones that use real data) proves more effective in decreasing unwanted pregnancies than restrictive abortion laws.
Sadly, it is sometimes a medically necessary procedure and I can only imagine the anguish a decision like that causes the patient and the doctor. Laws like this injure people trying to do the right thing. Also sadly, religious fundamentalists are OK with this.
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All-In [28802]
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Except when people were zealous about nationally legalizing
May 15, 2019, 4:26 PM
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Right? Because that's how Roe happened.
It's only not important when it's the other side.
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All-TigerNet [11211]
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The two sides of the coin aren't even close to equal.
May 15, 2019, 4:49 PM
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One has much more severe health implications than the other in providing blanket coverage like this and severe personal rights consequences. And with Alabama's case, criminalization of medical professionals that sometimes must recommend the safest treatment for their patients.
Ultimately, it's about control. People that advocate for laws like this are happy with the mistaken idea that this will control others, when in reality, it can and will cause great harm. If religious organizations want to reduce the number of abortions that occur in the US, then do it by influencing people not by making restrictive laws. Abortion does not belong on the legal battlefield.
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All-In [28802]
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Right, one side wants to kill children because of control
May 15, 2019, 5:06 PM
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One side wants to protect those children's rights by at least considering how they relate to would-be mothers' rights. But because pro-choice people believe the right to control your body is more important than a child's right to life, they apparently think it's a waste to even consider the other side.
I did get a good laugh at the idea that killing children so you can have more control over your body and life has less "severe health implications" than protecting those children.
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All-TigerNet [11211]
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This is why the abortion issue needs to be addressed
May 15, 2019, 5:20 PM
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somewhere else than the legal arena. You use terms like "killing children" and "pro-abortion" as daggers to an argument that has no acceptable rules or truths to your side of it. Then we have people like Will Ainsworth in AL parroting Donald Trump about "post-birth abortions", which is patently absurd.
We all want to reduce abortions so we should use the truthful science and data to achieve that end. Now if you want to just outright ban the practice, then you're not only seeking to control others, but actively deny their rights.
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All-In [28802]
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Yep, it should've been addressed politically
May 15, 2019, 5:24 PM
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Unfortunately, Roe prevents that from happening
You also keep going back to these issues of rights and control, as if killing someone doesn't take away their rights, and as if abortion isn't about controlling your body and life by removing a child you'd have to birth and (potentially) raise.
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All-TigerNet [11211]
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So address it in your life with your family and do what
May 15, 2019, 5:28 PM
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you feel is right. Because someone else has no right to tell you what you HAVE to do if you ever find yourself in a complicated medical situation.
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All-In [28802]
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Nobody opposes "complicated medical situations"
May 15, 2019, 5:54 PM
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What they oppose is the much more common practice of using abortion as a kind of contraception.
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All-TigerNet [11211]
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Sure they do, just read some of the quotes
May 15, 2019, 6:05 PM
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of Alabama's fine elected officials the last few days. It would be nice if nobody opposed it in "complicated medical situations", but thats not the case in AL.
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All-In [28802]
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Isn't that why "health of the mother" is an exception?***
May 15, 2019, 6:20 PM
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All-TigerNet [11211]
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That is a legally arguable clause, and that is a huge
May 15, 2019, 11:49 PM
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Problem. Do you want a prosecutor’s opinion to be held in higher regard than a doctor’s? Where does the judge set the bar of importance when considering the mother’s health? We’ve talked about Roy Moore in this thread and he’s a certified looney toon and our former Chief Justice. People like him should not be trusted with decisions of this nature. There are plenty of AL judges like him that would import their religious beliefs to a higher degree than the written law.
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CU Medallion [60063]
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Re: Yep, it should've been addressed politically
May 16, 2019, 7:19 AM
[ in reply to Yep, it should've been addressed politically ] |
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I think the heartbeat bill takes care of the issue. If there is a heartbeat, the discussion should be over.
On VPN so I am not googling the stats, but the amount of African American abortions vs Caucasian is staggering....its like 4 or 5x as high in most states. We really should be talking about that issue instead and educating the AA population and also discussing fatherhood and responsibility in that community.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Yep, it should've been ayddressed politically
May 16, 2019, 7:33 AM
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You want all of those babies born into uneducated poor difunctional broken homes? Sounds like a mess for society. Babies hearts start to beat at 22 days too. Not enough time imo for some people to even know they are pregnant.
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All-In [42204]
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This is a national movement
May 15, 2019, 11:30 AM
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The national GOP is making a play to get Roe back in the Supreme Court. That's why these states like Alabama and Georgia are passing these hard-lined bills. They know a judge is likely going to shut them down, thus opening the door for appeals up to the SCOTUS. The hope is that this particular Court will overturn Roe.
I don't know how smart his round of abortion chess is. If they do make the SCOTUS, they're assuming the justices are going to push ahead with overturning a previous Court ruling. I don't know that would be likely on just the surface level. I also don't know if going with the complete hard-lined abortion stance is also the smart play with the Court; they may rule the bills to be too restrictive.
It's Black's Sniper Attack in abortion chess. Very aggressive, but you better know how White can counter it and make you pay for it.
Any other fellow chess nerds get that reference? Cool. I'll see myself out.
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Legend [18026]
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All-In [28802]
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Is precedent supposed to be a primary consideration?
May 15, 2019, 3:11 PM
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What about bad precedent?
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Legend [18026]
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It's a legal doctrine the court uses (stare decisis)***
May 15, 2019, 3:45 PM
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All-In [28802]
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Yep, but not the only one, and not always the most important***
May 15, 2019, 3:52 PM
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Legend [18026]
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Of course, but it's a pretty strong consideration
May 15, 2019, 4:12 PM
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usually
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All-In [28802]
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Legend [18026]
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True, but that "so far" I think is the issue
May 15, 2019, 5:40 PM
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at least with regard to Breyer's worry expressed in his dissent.
There's some cases coming up that should help determine if the direction the court is taking (RE: precedent) has changed
From Economist reporter:
"Sure, he's worried about abortion rights, Roe & Casey. But I read Breyer's line as a more general concern about a 5-justice conservative majority empowered to jettison precedents it doesn't like. And there are more imminent opportunities on the horizon than Roe & its progeny"
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1128021702603149314.html
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Just so we are clear
May 15, 2019, 4:54 PM
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It's all just hype to get some of those rednecks re-elected in one of the states with the worst education systems in 'Murica.
Trump doesn't like abortions since began running for office. He got healed tho!
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Just so we are really clear about this...
May 16, 2019, 8:29 AM
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So pretty much the vast majority wants abortion legal. That's not a winning issue for Repubs.
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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I wouldn't be so quick to claim what we have now is...
May 16, 2019, 8:40 AM
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what the majority of Americans want. The poll clearly shows that most Americans do not like the no limit law which currently exist.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: I wouldn't be so quick to claim what we have now is...
May 16, 2019, 8:44 AM
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I bet anything in the first trimester would have overwhelming support.
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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I don't think anyone intends to do more than have this...
May 16, 2019, 9:13 AM
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turned into a state's rights issue which will end prolife folks being taxed to fund abortions at this point. One brick at a time is the plan.
Some decades ago abortion was a big political platform which dems won on. Some folks think the pubs are handing it back to them. Actually, the thought that live birth abortions might become legal is what brought people to reconsider when a fetus is considered a human baby.
I believe that's why the UNC prolifers were attacked. The 3D photos displayed there are chilling to everyone.
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