Replies: 79
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All-In [46930]
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All-In [31683]
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Re: If we let everybody vote, as if this is a democracy
Mar 3, 2021, 10:39 AM
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Well duh, but it sounds more FREEDOM if you cloak it in the guise of preventing mystery fraud.
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All-Conference [400]
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All-In [31683]
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Re: If we let everybody vote, as if this is a democracy
Mar 3, 2021, 10:47 AM
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Yikes LMAO
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All-In [46930]
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110%er [9090]
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Re: If we let everybody vote, as if this is a democracy
Mar 3, 2021, 10:53 AM
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you make a strong case for voter ID
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All-In [46930]
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What problem does voter ID solve?
Mar 3, 2021, 10:56 AM
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Please provide data with your answer. Not just "I feel like voter fraud happens"
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All-In [40375]
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Why do I have to show my driver’s license to vote?
Mar 3, 2021, 1:16 PM
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It’s not difficult and I always have it on me so it’s no big deal
I asked the poll worker if I could vote without showing and was told no
It’s almost as if I need an ID to vote
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Oculus Spirit [81453]
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If you just show your voter registration card you can vote***
Mar 3, 2021, 2:06 PM
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All-In [46930]
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All-In [46930]
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A little over 2000 cases of fraud in the last 20 years
Mar 3, 2021, 11:00 AM
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SHUT IT DOWN THERE'S RAMPENT FRAUD!!
Message was edited by: FBCoachSC®
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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All-In [46930]
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Remember, Facts don't care about your feelings***
Mar 3, 2021, 11:05 AM
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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What about all that Russian collusion?
Mar 3, 2021, 11:17 AM
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I am routinely amazed by some of y'alls ability to totally block out years of events in an effort to fit the current narrative you're being spoon fed.
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All-In [46930]
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#### you don't even hide your "whataboutism"***
Mar 3, 2021, 11:20 AM
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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It's not whataboutism, it's sheer amazement at the lack of
Mar 3, 2021, 11:22 AM
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self awareness some of you have. The same people who spent 4 years whining about election integrity are the first ones to mock anyone questioning it now. It was like an overnight switch for you guys, and it's like the hypocrisy doesn't even register. It's really mind blowing.
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All-In [46930]
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Is this your 4d underwater chess?
Mar 3, 2021, 11:24 AM
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where you claim dems are doing the exact same thing you pubs are doing?
No wait, that's called gaslighting.
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All-Conference [400]
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All-In [42492]
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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Not really, look at the first sentence in Tobias's link
Mar 3, 2021, 12:27 PM
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"The Justice Department has turned up virtually no evidence of any organized effort to skew federal elections."
We literally had a 4 year investigation in which Democrats argued that is exactly what happened in 2016, which many now conveniently want to pretend never happened. Now the same people who bought into that narrative hook, line, and sinker want to mock people who question election integrity now? GTFO
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All-In [46930]
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You don't even see it do you?
Mar 3, 2021, 12:30 PM
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Nobody is crying over Russian Collusion except for Pubs.
Impeachment ended it. Except for an excellent whataboutism
But all the data in the world won't stop Pubs from screaming voter fraud.
So Lakebum, is there or is there not substantial voting fraud in the US election of 2020?
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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This is what's so amazing to me, you lack the...let's call
Mar 3, 2021, 12:41 PM
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it introspection to even acknowledge your hypocrisy. How convenient to spend 4 years crying about Russian collusion only to be able to turn off the outrage whenever it's no longer politically necessary. Very cult like on your behalf.
Impeachment ended the threat of foreign interference in our elections? How'd it do that? Now all of the sudden we have a super secure election system because Biden won? Do you not see how ridiculous that is?
You have to be potato stupid to not understand how laughable it is for people like yourself, who spent 4 years all concerned about election integrity, to now have zero concerns....Even going so far as to mock anyone who expresses any doubt about the fairness or integrity of the 2020 election.
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All-In [46930]
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And yet no answer to my question***
Mar 3, 2021, 12:46 PM
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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All you're doing is dancing around acknowledging your
Mar 3, 2021, 12:48 PM
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own hypocrisy. It's fascinating, and you have yet again inspired me to donate to my sons private school fund today.
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All-In [46930]
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Is it so hard to say yes or no?***
Mar 3, 2021, 12:58 PM
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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Is it so hard to acknowledge how ridiculous and nonsensical
Mar 3, 2021, 1:08 PM
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flip flopping 180 degrees on election integrity within a matter of weeks is without trying to deflect?
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All-In [46930]
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So.. it is too hard to say the election was not stolen
Mar 3, 2021, 1:13 PM
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and there was no fraud
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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Soo, too hard to not deflect and acknowledge your hypocrisy
Mar 3, 2021, 1:30 PM
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That's the crux of my entire point and you seemingly cannot comprehend that.
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All-Conference [400]
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Re: Soo, too hard to not deflect and acknowledge your hypocrisy
Mar 3, 2021, 1:37 PM
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Russian interference in the 2016 election is pretty well substantiated.
Voter fraud in the 2020 election is not.
HTH
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Soo, too hard to not deflect and acknowledge your hypocrisy
Mar 3, 2021, 1:41 PM
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All-Conference [400]
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Re: Soo, too hard to not deflect and acknowledge your hypocrisy
Mar 3, 2021, 2:31 PM
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I’m more persuaded by the Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee’s report which concluded that the Russian government had engaged in an "extensive campaign" to sabotage the 2016 election.
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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Is it? Based on what I've seen, Russian interference didn't
Mar 3, 2021, 2:01 PM
[ in reply to Re: Soo, too hard to not deflect and acknowledge your hypocrisy ] |
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really constitute anything different from what Google, facebook, twitter, etc. did in 2020. But I don't hear much about that, other than a little bit of gloating in the NYT about how they helped 'secure' the correct outcome.
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All-In [42492]
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It's completely irrelevant...
Mar 3, 2021, 2:11 PM
[ in reply to Not really, look at the first sentence in Tobias's link ] |
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To the topic, so yes, a red herring.
What's the problem? Both situations played out through the legal process and were settled. How does the Russian investigation have anything to do with making sure all legal Americans have voting access?
Are you attempting to call hypocrisy on people in this thread? Because that doesn't work in this situation, either. It's a red herring, pure and simple, and intended to change the subject.
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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The subject is election integrity, no?
Mar 3, 2021, 2:20 PM
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I am being told that questioning the integrity of the last election is pure nonsense by the same people who spent the past 4 years questioning the integrity of the 2016 election. And pointing this out is somehow changing the subject?
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All-In [42492]
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This is apples and oranges.
Mar 3, 2021, 2:37 PM
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The supposed questions about this year's integrity saw zero real evidence submitted and all claims rejected by bipartisan courts and committees. Trump sowed the seeds of distrust before the election happened because he was pretty clear he was going to lose. The whole thing was a ruse from the beginning.
2016 saw bipartisan support for an investigation and some players actually receive convictions for their roles. Mueller proved that Russian interference occurred and that people in the Trump campaign were involved. What he couldn't prove was Trump's involvement, but he didn't exonerate him, either.
They are completely different scenarios.
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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Have we had anyone looking into it though?
Mar 3, 2021, 3:23 PM
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They were cooking up Russian collusion "evidence" well before Trump was even in office, and we got several months of media propaganda pushing the collusion narrative before we got an actual investigation, no? Some of those arrests seem like they turned out to be nothing burgers, too. There were also certainly some questionable at best tactics that were used to collect this info. Conveniently, we don't hear much about that.
In 2020, we have media and Democrats/many Pubs (I'm with dawghater, in that I think it's time to just call these people the Uniparty)outright dismissing the very thought that there could have been any sort of fraud or interference within days of the election taking place. And anyone who continued to question it was ostracized. There were a lot of crazy accusations thrown out there that certainly muddied the water, but in places like Fulton County, Ga were some of those shenanigans ever cleared up? Not saying there was outright proof of fraud, but there certainly was a lot of smoke that I've yet to see any explanations for. Well, we've seen some half-assed explanations that don't make a whole lot of sense, and some "we investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing".
I'm not even saying it would have made a difference, or that the election was "stolen". But to me, the way in which the media handled the two elections tells the tale. There's an agenda at play, and it ain't about finding the truth. What amazes me most, however, is how people can go from questioning our election integrity for the duration of a presidential term, to wholeheartedly trusting the process because Biden won.
I mean, do you actually think if Trump had won we wouldn't be going through 4 more years of election interference accusations and investigations?
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All-In [42492]
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There's a simple answer here.
Mar 3, 2021, 4:30 PM
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In 2020, we have media and Democrats/many Pubs (I'm with dawghater, in that I think it's time to just call these people the Uniparty)outright dismissing the very thought that there could have been any sort of fraud or interference within days of the election taking place.
That's because no evidence was presented, it was all conjecture, and it was all made-up by Trump before the election even happened. It was the equivalent of me telling you that if you beat me in the game of pool we are about to shoot, you obviously cheated and it won't count.
The Trump admin could provide no concrete, sound evidence for their claim.
In the Russian case, there was already proven evidence the Russians interfered and evidence Trump associates were involved with them.
There wasn't concrete evidence Trump did it, and thus, he wasn't convicted. Same end result.
Again, this isn't relevant to the OP.
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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And again, you are missing my larger point about how could
Mar 3, 2021, 4:56 PM
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you be so sure? How can you go from being convinced that Russia influenced our election in 2016, to having no doubt whatsoever about the integrity of 2020? You say that Trump was sewing seeds of doubt about the election, well so was the FBI director a few months before November. They were 100% setting the narrative up in case Trump won. I'm sorry, there was not already proven evidence that Trump associates were involved with Russians in interfering with our election, that is false.
I also recall the Tony Bobulinksi story, which Biden nor anyone else has challenged, being painted as 'Russian disinformation'. We've gotten almost zero investigative journalism on that.
If we're talking about election integrity, it's absolutely relevant. Is it solely up to the Trump campaign to present evidence? They certainly did themselves no favors, but there were definitely irregularities that have never been explained, nor have they been looked into any deeper. They were simply outright dismissed, unlike the Russian investigation which was fueled day and night by media.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: What about all that Russian collusion?
Mar 3, 2021, 3:38 PM
[ in reply to What about all that Russian collusion? ] |
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Aussie !!
Bum,
Some of us hear think that there really was collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians.
At the very least, there was plenty of evidence. Robert Mueller produced a 448 page report on these issues. And dozens of people were indicted over it.
Now, Mueller did stop short of saying that Trump himself committed indictable offenses, but, again at the very least, these were not some made up incidents. There was a large dose of reality involved.
So many of US are amazed at YOUR ability to block out so many events to fit your Trump worship.
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Oculus Spirit [79508]
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What is with you people always reverting back to the
Mar 3, 2021, 4:03 PM
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“Trump worship” stuff? Why do you have the pathological need to always go there?
Anyway, the report you’re referencing to backup your Russian collusion beliefs clearly stated “[T]he investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities“....so, keep on believing what you want to I guess. May want to lay off accusing other people of being conspiracy theorists though.
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Legend [18026]
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You might want to use the full quote:
Mar 3, 2021, 6:05 PM
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“Although the investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts, the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.”
Also, be aware that Mueller didn't look for collusion and stated, “[a] statement that the investigation did not establish particular facts does not mean there was no evidence of those facts.”
He also found that Don Jr., Manafort, and Jared Kushner met with Russians in Trump Tower in order to receive information on Clinton as part of Russia's support for Trump.
He also found sharing of polling data with Russia (manafort)
I think that is pretty useful context to your parroting of Barr's "mischaracterization" of the Mueller report.
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All-In [42492]
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All-In [42492]
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I'm amazed at...
Mar 3, 2021, 11:05 AM
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The mental gymnastics some folks will try to go through to defend efforts to prevent people from voting.
Listen. The GOP wants fewer people to vote because they have more success when that happens. And you know what? I get that. They'll dress it up as something else, but that's the end game.
It's listening to the people fall over themselves to defend it that is amazing to watch. Yeah, yeah. Sure. Fraud, dead people voting, blah blah. Does that happen? Sure. But not on a wide-scale level, and certainly not on the level to justify restricting legitimate voters.
Hell, there have been people here who have insinuated that it's bad to have every who can vote actually cast a vote. That's disturbing; they fail to realize they're saying, "My voice is important but I think other people's voices aren't."
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All-In [31957]
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Well...that's not true at all...
Mar 3, 2021, 11:07 AM
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we "let everyone" who is legal to vote vote now.
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CU Medallion [60289]
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I am still waiting on FBCoach to answer
Mar 3, 2021, 11:08 AM
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the question from yesterday. Who does he know that was not allowed to vote that is a minority. And if that happened, the ACLU would be ALL OVER it and it would make nationwide news.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: I am still waiting on FBCoach to answer
Mar 3, 2021, 3:44 PM
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manac
I think I have pointed out, multiple times, that approximately 11 million Americans do not have the government issued ID that the Reps would like to require. Now I do not know them all personally, but i am willing to bet that a number of them would like to vote if we made it a bit easier for them.
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All-In [42492]
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I'm not sure anyone is saying...
Mar 3, 2021, 11:15 AM
[ in reply to Well...that's not true at all... ] |
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(or maybe they are, I dunno) that people are being barred from voting. The argument is that the GOP, especially after this last election, is trying to make it more difficult and less accessible. And let's be honest, the motive is pretty obvious. Lower voter turnout almost always means more GOP wins.
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All-In [46930]
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We let everybody vote!
Mar 3, 2021, 11:17 AM
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but if you're from a minority heavy district you're only going to have 1 polling place and have to wait in line for 4 hours.
Hope you enjoy your wait! At least you have a chance to vote!
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All-In [42492]
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Re: We let everybody vote!
Mar 3, 2021, 11:20 AM
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Someone the other day made an argument that voting shouldn't be easy because, well, he has to go through some effort to vote so everyone else should, too. As if making it easier is a bad thing. Maybe he was being facetious, but I dunno.
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All-In [46930]
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I use to be of the mindset that we should make it
Mar 3, 2021, 11:25 AM
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harder to vote so only the best and brightest would make the decisions.
Then I learned this thing called Democracy.
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All-In [48007]
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All-In [42492]
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Again...
Mar 3, 2021, 11:34 AM
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I'm down with that... but have the government send out that ID at no additional cost to voters and without requiring them to travel somewhere to get it.
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CU Medallion [60289]
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Re: Again...
Mar 3, 2021, 12:00 PM
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they have to go to the grocery store, doctor, dentist, go to the mall, go to the Pub, go to the crack dealer, go to the car wash, go to the concert. Why can that person not make it to a SS office to pick up an ID?
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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All-In [31957]
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Regardless of whether one might agree or disagree...
Mar 3, 2021, 12:56 PM
[ in reply to I'm not sure anyone is saying... ] |
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with the claims of voter fraud in the last election, a significant portion of GOP voters believe there was fraud (~78% according to resent polling). Heck, I would agree with a broad question like there. There is always some level of fraud and irregularity. The real question is was it enough to affect the outcome.
Anyways, a lot of people believe there was a wide level of fraud and they have lost confidence in the election system. Even if you don't agree with that point of view, in my opinion it has enough merit to not be able to just assume racist intent (as many like to say it is) or the changes proposed are attempts at voter suppression.
In other words, I don't think it's correct or accurate to be automatically attacking motives on this issue.
In my personal opinion, I think everyone should show an ID to vote. I think absentee ballots should require a reason and, except in cases of military and living out of the country/area, that absentee ballots ought to be turned in in-person. I think there should be 2 weeks of early in-person voting that include weekends. I do not buy into the rhetoric that the above voting rules disenfranchise any segment of the population.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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CU Medallion [60289]
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the fact that you do not realize that its cyclical
Mar 3, 2021, 11:07 AM
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like many things life shows just how ignorant you are on the topic. This country will not allow a sway too far from one side or the other.
The only way to assure that Democrats have control forever, would be to abolish the electoral college. That way, you all can negate the votes in flyover states and let the left and right coast elect Presidents.
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All-In [46930]
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I'll wait on
Mar 3, 2021, 11:16 AM
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Carlsbad®'s analysis
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All-Conference [400]
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: I don't understand the take that
Mar 3, 2021, 11:39 AM
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All-Conference [400]
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Re: I don't understand the take that
Mar 3, 2021, 12:23 PM
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The establishment of the electoral college was actually a compromise among delegates at the Philadelphia convention between members who wanted Congress to choose the president and members who wanted the president to be elected by popular vote. It was not really about limiting the power of large urban areas, although the argument could be made today that it has this effect.
If the electoral college votes were truly apportioned based on population, limiting the distortion in vote weight that we see today, I think it would be a better system. And it's not just republican states that benefit from this skew, small liberal states also have too much weight, like Vermont and Rhode Island.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: I don't understand the take that
Mar 3, 2021, 1:36 PM
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: I don't understand the take that
Mar 3, 2021, 4:00 PM
[ in reply to Re: I don't understand the take that ] |
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We could leave the electoral College in place and solve this by eliminating winner-take-all systems in the states. Maine and Nebraska already distribute their EC votes proportional to their popular vote numbers. If other states would do this it would help eliminate this problem.
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Heisman Winner [138439]
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But you are purely, openly advocating for the continuation
Mar 3, 2021, 2:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: I don't understand the take that ] |
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of a system that places more or less value on a person's vote based on where they live geographically. I get that it works for your "team" in the current structure, but I DON'T get how you could argue that it's fair or equitable.
The Senate is a prime example of the inequality. California has 40M people. Wyoming has 500,000, or roughly 1/80th the population. Each state has 2 Senators. Again, you like it because of team sports and whatnot, but you'd be screaming at the top of you lungs were the roles reversed, AND you'd have an actual legitimate argument.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: If we let everybody vote, as if this is a democracy
Mar 3, 2021, 11:07 AM
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All-In [46930]
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You mean "bringing jobs back from chiy-na"?
Mar 3, 2021, 11:18 AM
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I want to wear Nikes not make them.
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Oculus Spirit [79006]
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um, we are not a democracy***
Mar 3, 2021, 11:19 AM
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All-In [46930]
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Silly me. I forgot pubs play semantics to distract from
Mar 3, 2021, 11:22 AM
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their stupidity.
We are an indirect democracy also known as representative democracy where we elect a representative or middle man to go to the capital to vote for us
which is not a direct democracy where every citizen votes for all issues.
WAIT A MINUTE. The word democracy is in both!
Stay awake in government class. You might learn something.
Message was edited by: FBCoachSC®
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Oculus Spirit [79006]
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not a pub but you are wrong
Mar 3, 2021, 12:04 PM
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stick to facebook coaching
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All-In [46930]
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What am I wrong in?***
Mar 3, 2021, 12:08 PM
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Oculus Spirit [79006]
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maybe the gov't is teaching the Argentinas wrong
Mar 3, 2021, 12:46 PM
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I would have a better link if I tried harder, but this is what our gov't is saying
https://ar.usembassy.gov/education-culture/irc/u-s-government/U.S. Government | U.S. Embassy in Argentina While often categorized as a democracy, the United States is more accurately defined as a constitutional federal republic. What does this mean? “Constitutional” refers to the fact that government in the United States is based on a Constitution which is the supreme law of the United States. The Constitution not only provides the framework for ...
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All-In [46930]
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and what is a republic? A representative or
Mar 3, 2021, 12:50 PM
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indirect democracy
We are also a presidential democracy as compared to a parliamentary democracy.
We are also a federal government system because we have 2 levels of government created in our founding document that shares power equally as compared to unitary (single level of government with all the power) or Confederate (power is located at the local level of government over the national level)
Just because it uses different identifying words doesn't mean it's not an indirect democracy.
So what's your point?
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Oculus Spirit [79006]
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re·pub·lic
Mar 3, 2021, 12:58 PM
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noun noun: republic; plural noun: republics a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.
I got no point
you can win this discussion if you want
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All-In [26968]
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Not a pure democracy, but we obviously have a
Mar 3, 2021, 1:29 PM
[ in reply to um, we are not a democracy*** ] |
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form of democracy, aka "governing by the people".
A constitutional republic is a form of democracy, and a mighty good one, I'd add.
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All-TigerNet [11025]
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Funny how you have to insert language to make
Mar 3, 2021, 12:39 PM
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a point. Back here in reality, where nobody is targeting minorities, we know that Democrats cheat. Especially democrat stronghold cities. So loose voting laws help democrats win. This is a no brainer.
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All-In [46930]
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Care to provide any data to substantiate your claim of
Mar 3, 2021, 12:43 PM
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"no targeting of minorities" and "dems cheat"
Or are we going off of what you FEEL is happening
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All-TigerNet [11025]
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No. I know it is true. I'm not going to waste my time***
Mar 3, 2021, 12:45 PM
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All-In [46930]
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So we should go off of what you think is true
Mar 3, 2021, 12:51 PM
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because if you KNOW it's true, that would have to be backed up with facts.
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All-In [31957]
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You also "know" covid is a hoax...
Mar 3, 2021, 2:06 PM
[ in reply to No. I know it is true. I'm not going to waste my time*** ] |
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have respect for drug dealers and a whole host of other non-sense you believe.
It shouldn't be hard for you to understand that few will just "take your word for it" on many matters.
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Legend [18026]
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Yep. We just had an extraordinary test case in voting
Mar 3, 2021, 4:33 PM
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with the 2020 election where we saw an expansion of absentee/mail-in voting which resulted in a huge jump in the number of people voting and thanks to Trump we even had it confirmed to be free from major fraud by multiple investigations and recounts(led by Republicans!). This all should be celebrated and seen as the blueprint moving forward but for obvious reasons, the Republicans want to not only get rid of this success but go even further in restricting the vote. It's incredibly transparent (they literally have told us it's to win elections by keeping people from voting) and it's incredibly anti-American.
It's embarrassing and dangerous but that's basically the GOP platform these days.
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