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All-In [31520]
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Vaccine super thread offshoot
May 5, 2021, 12:04 PM
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That thread is a nice cross-section of American culture and opinions right now, and a great demonstration for why we will never reach herd immunity. Widely circulating variants and hesitancy about vaccination will keep that goal out of reach.
What we'll see is a persistently present illness, that will peak in the winter months with every other respiratory virus. As long as we vaccinate enough of the vulnerable population, it might be enough. My big worry, and I think antivax people can sympathize with this, is that it is going to be EXTREMELY challenging to roll back all the changes and adaptations society has made for COVID if we still have persistently high infectivity rates, people sick with it jamming up hospitals, etc. Who wants to wear a mask in a grocery store anymore? I sure as #### don't, but the ONLY WAY we ever get rid of all the silliness is if we were to vaccinate enough people to reach herd immunity. I worry that the unrolling of precautions will be a years-long if not impossible proposition.
So, in a very real sense, people refusing to get vaccinated are themselves protracting all of the masks, social distancing, closed schools, and all of the other things they're bitching and moaning about.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00728-2
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CU Medallion [54011]
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We got us a chip salesman here!
May 5, 2021, 12:11 PM
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No way I’m letting them put that devil juice in my buttwhole! I’ve heard that’s where they stick the needle. Right up your buttwhole. No way, am I taking that shot. Heard it makes your kids mentally handicapped too! Can’t trust it.
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Legend [15216]
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Would you have any issues vaccinating your 5 year old
May 5, 2021, 12:29 PM
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right now if you could? Eliminate all the spread thru schools.
Just curious.
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All-In [31520]
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Re: Would you have any issues vaccinating your 5 year old
May 5, 2021, 12:31 PM
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I would not have issues with it, I will get my 4 and 1 year olds vaccinated if and when they are approved for use.
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Legend [15216]
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Do you mean full approval?***
May 5, 2021, 12:34 PM
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All-In [31520]
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Re: Do you mean full approval?***
May 5, 2021, 12:36 PM
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Emergency authorization use is fine with me, just as it was when I took the vaccine.
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All-In [31520]
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Re: Would you have any issues vaccinating your 5 year old
May 5, 2021, 12:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: Would you have any issues vaccinating your 5 year old ] |
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Just like I get them annual flu vaccines, just like I get them MMRs and TDAPs and every other vaccine available.
I've seen too many children and teens die of either ARDS or cardiomyopathy from influenza to want to even take the chance that it could happen to one of my own. If making them cry by getting a jab once a year can in any way reduce their risk of getting it, it's well worth it. In residency I think I personally saw at least two teens per year filter from around the state down to MUSC to get put on ECMO. Put in the ECMO cannulas myself on 4. I think I saw one recover, but I had many more conversations with parents that their child was going to die.
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Legend [15216]
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We always do flu vaccine. I'd have a tough time
May 5, 2021, 12:40 PM
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popping them with Covid until it gained full approval.
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Heisman Winner [136039]
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The good news is there have been a not insignificant
May 5, 2021, 12:42 PM
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number of babies born of vaccinated mothers since all this started and the babies have a high occurrence of the antibodies in their own system and, so far, have no adverse impacts.
That has to bode well for young children as well.
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All-In [47799]
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CU Medallion [51555]
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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I don't see letting thousands/millions of untested illegal
May 5, 2021, 12:36 PM
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immigrants into the country daily on the list.
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All-In [31520]
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Re: I don't see letting thousands/millions of untested illegal
May 5, 2021, 12:37 PM
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That's not not a problem, but it's a drop in the bucket I'm afraid.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Compared to what? People not masking or getting the vaccine?***
May 5, 2021, 12:46 PM
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All-In [31520]
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Re: Compared to what? People not masking or getting the vaccine?***
May 5, 2021, 12:47 PM
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People not getting the vaccine. Supply is already outpacing demand, and I fear it's going to take some serious change in public perception to get hesitant people to take it. The damage is already done.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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It will, but I think full FDA approval will go a long way
May 5, 2021, 12:51 PM
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for many. And quite frankly, a lot of people aren't eager to become the first recipients of a vaccine. Not unlike buying the first model year of a car, and I don't think that's unreasonable.
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All-In [31520]
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Re: It will, but I think full FDA approval will go a long way
May 5, 2021, 12:57 PM
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I get people are scared or skeptical, but their reasons for being so aren't entirely clear, and I think in most circumstances from what I've had people explain to me are based on incorrect information, simply fear of the unknown, or wrong assumptions.
I felt those feelings in early January, when we really were amongst some of the first, but I understood how the vaccine works and what it does, and that allays a lot of the fears. At this point I think almost 147 million people in the US have gotten at least one dose. Ain't really the first recipients at this point anymore.
We're at 32% fully vaccinated. I don't see how we get much higher than about 55-60% without some form of economic pressure/incentive or simple coercion.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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I think I outlined mine in the super thread below fairly
May 5, 2021, 1:09 PM
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clearly. I've also seen the results of rushed manufacturing first hand. And if you've already had Covid, what's your incentive to get the vaccine?
I also think if Fauci would be quiet that alone would go a long way.
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Heisman Winner [136039]
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They've got a better chance of getting vaccinated here
May 5, 2021, 2:26 PM
[ in reply to I don't see letting thousands/millions of untested illegal ] |
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and slowing the variant mutations from occurring and extending this whole roller-coaster than in whatever crap situation they are running from.
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All-In [47799]
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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I don't disagree with that, and once that happens we can
May 5, 2021, 12:52 PM
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get back to shaming American citizens.
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All-In [47799]
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yes, the antivaxers are the core of the problem in the usa***
May 5, 2021, 12:38 PM
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Looking at the current state of our supply chain, I think
May 5, 2021, 12:44 PM
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I'd pin that honor on the doomers who wanted to shut everything down.
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CU Medallion [60051]
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This thing has RAGED through the
May 5, 2021, 1:04 PM
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African American Community, however they can’t get anyone to show up to vaccine sites. They tried to make it easier on everyone, opened up Ford Field with J&J and they called it a modest turnout, which means no one showed up. Time and time again polls show they only 30% of AA want the vaccine.
Why is that? That is because of leadership all the way to the White House. They show no reason to get it. The dog and pony show at the SOTU and all these photo ops with masks, they are not giving anyone a reason to get vaccinated. Governors who aren’t vaccinated going out of State, local law enforcement leaders and professional athletes denying the vaccine. That is why. No one is giving them a reason other than, you will kill grandma.
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All-In [31520]
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Re: This thing has RAGED through the
May 5, 2021, 1:09 PM
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Totally agree, from the very get go there has been zero leadership and poor communication, and that leaves tons of ground for misunderstanding, misperception, and ignorance to take root. If everyone understood:
1. The vaccines are EXTREMELY effective, are brilliant technology, and are extremely safe
2. The only way we can quickly and confidently roll back covid precautions that we all hate is for the infection rate and hospitalization rate to fall
3. Vaccines are impossibly better at keeping you from getting sick, and from the way it looks even catching and passing the thing at all, than masks, stupidass plexiglass walls, and X's made out of tape on floors
If those three points were made clear, over and over again, and we didn't see a constant barrage of unmeasured skepticism for the sake of skepticism, ignorance, and fear-mongering about vaccines, I think we'd be in a better place with demand for the vaccine and well and truly getting back to normal.
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Lot o points [155978]
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“Impossibly better”
May 5, 2021, 3:04 PM
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So they’re not better?
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All-In [31520]
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Re: “Impossibly better”
May 6, 2021, 6:19 AM
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It’s a figure of speech. An unbelievably effective one apparently.
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Oculus Spirit [78892]
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Heisman Winner [137988]
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One of my (many) black friends in AZ told me he got
May 5, 2021, 2:34 PM
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vaccinated in October. I'm like "Wut? How'd you get ahead of doctors?" He was part of the Moderna trial. SO TAKE THAT, BLACK PEOPLE.
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Legend [17302]
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How many salaried folks are willing to cover and put extra hours in
May 5, 2021, 1:10 PM
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to cover for an anti-Vaxers who gets COVID-19 this Autumn and Winter?
How many managers / owners are ready to scramble to cover and pay hourly associates OT to cover for sick anti-Vaxers?
How many customers and consumers are going to buy poor service, missed shipment, poor workmanship or missed deadline on a COVID-19 excuse?
Last year most COVID-19 business disruptions and impacts came with a presumption of understanding and acceptance. My guess is that tolerance is diminished.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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You must have missed where all of the managers, owners,
May 5, 2021, 1:18 PM
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and salaried folk are having to do all of that already because the govt keeps paying people not to work.
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Oculus Spirit [97758]
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It's time people think of this as influenza 2.0***
May 5, 2021, 1:19 PM
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All-In [31520]
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Re: It's time people think of this as influenza 2.0***
May 5, 2021, 2:16 PM
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100% agreement
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Hall of Famer [21940]
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Very complex and interesting conversation indeed
May 5, 2021, 1:46 PM
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My biggest takeaway - from a sociological perspective - is that someone like myself who simply questions this rollout, and is skeptical of the program in general, will be immediately blasted, labeled, etc. Don't attack people for questioning this when a lot of their questions are valid. Not questioning any of this and just going all-in in support of it is just as cray, in my opinion.
From my understanding, this is pretty unprecedented, no? A mass vaccination rollout of this scale, where we were literally in a lab less than a year ago? This is the first mRNA vaccine technology deployed as well, no? It's disingenuous to attack people and label them as an "anti-vaxxer grandma killing unpatriotic insurrectionist" for simply asking these questions and being skeptical.
On the other side of the coin - their is a full on assault by the government, corporate America, and the media establishment to do this. That puts my spidey senses on alert, immediately. IDGAS what they're selling, if there's ever this much unanimous agreement (and attack to any opposition) by these stakeholders, I'm going to be skeptical.
Seems like a money grab by the pharmaceutical companies to me, more than any other conspiracy or what have you that is out there. J&J just clocked a $3.5B revenue number last quarter on these vaccination sales? With zero liability? You kidding me?! Has Moderna ever had a vaccination or medication clear the FDA regular channels of approval?
Blast me all you want, but these are legitimate questions. If Ford rolls out a truck this year, and in 6 months it starts exploding, killing Americans, they're going to be sued to hell and back. Probably processed through criminal court for negligence (hello - Boeing).
There's a lot of pieces of this puzzle that simply don't pass the smell test. That's a fair conversation to have, while being open to conversations promoting the science and research behind the vaccine (which I'm very open to do). I'm extremely hopeful this vaccine works, and am rooting for positive outcomes.
This all circles back to the core issues we're having. No one will admit any sliver of doubt, wrong-doing, lessons learned, or any sort of retroactive type of thinking with respect to any issue that anyone is a proponent of, or against, as it relates to their team. By questioning this rollout, you're the enemy and you're an anti-vaxxer. It's preposterous.
Before you call me an anti-vaxxer - I'm literally getting a vaccine in a few weeks. Idk the #### name of it but it's for the whooping cough or whatever. So stop it.
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All-In [31520]
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Re: Very complex and interesting conversation indeed
May 5, 2021, 2:34 PM
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Taking a TDAP vaccine without thinking about it, while simultaneously twisting yourself into knots worrying about the COVID vaccines, is a pretty clear demonstration of how toxic the conversation over the pandemic has become.
Being skeptical just for the sake of being skeptical, without any specific concerns to articulate is an impossible position for someone to try to change your mind. I can't tell you why you should get the vaccine if it just "doesn't feel right" to you or you won't take it because you don't like that doctors and the CDC and literally everyone are telling you do take it. The vaccine costs you nothing. The R&D and manufacturing were funded by government contracts across the world. If you see that as some sort of nefarious activity, then I don't know what to tell you. Now, if Elon Musk or another individual who can afford that kind of expense personally funded a MuskVax or something? Yeah, maybe be worried about some ethical concerns.
So no, those are not legitimate questions, you're just throwing vague BS up against the wall. Here are some legitimate questions: - What is the rate of individuals getting infected with asymptomatic COVID after being vaccinated? - How long does it take to reach peak humoral immunity following one dose? Two doses? - How long does the humoral immunity last? Should this be an annual vaccine based on a prediction of the likely variants? - Are there undiscovered side effects, like activation of PF4 by adenovirus vector vaccines like J&J and Astrazeneca that we need to watch out for? Who are these side effects most likely to affect so we can avoid those demographics?
Those are legitimate questions. "Why is the media telling me what to do??? Why is it all happening so fast??? Why am I being assaulted by the gubment???" are not legitimate questions.
The fact that we have as many vaccine candidates as we do in such a short period of time is one of the most miraculous feats of the biomedical research and pharmaceutical industries, nay, in all of human history. It is unprecedented. It is a mother ####### miracle. It should be lauded, celebrated, we should be throwing parades and handing out Nobel prizes for how ######### brilliant the mRNA vaccine technology is. But no, instead, people who don't know anything about vaccines, or viruses, or anything at all about medicine don't like that they're being told what is best for them, and in the era of the internet and continuous self-validation, everyone is an expert in everything.
Sorry if I'm being an A hole.
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Hall of Famer [21940]
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I don't think you're being an A hole
May 5, 2021, 3:17 PM
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in fact, I appreciate the response. You're leveraging your training in the medical field to help educate others who don't know jack #### about it. I don't think you need to get defensive, as my intent is not get offensive. If you want to rail on me for having skepticism, go right ahead, but you're proving my broader point. I'm simply asking questions and providing feedback around things that cause me to be skeptical because I don't have insights into the industry as you do.
For the record, I did think about the TDAP vaccine. It's been around for like 15 years, right? Not < 15 months. When I asked the doctors about it, they gave me a pamphlet and resources to review the vaccine. There seems to be a higher risk associated with the whooping cough than Covid, for us in particular.
Also for the record, my wife and I plan to take the vaccine, after our baby is born.
When I asked the medical team about my pregnant wife taking the Covid one, they said their policy is to tell people to take it. That's it. That's a red flag, in my non-medical opinion.
Do you have answers for the legitimate questions you posed? I believe we have preliminary studies that answer 1 & 2 (that are positive based on my limited knowledge, and based on some studies you shared that I will thank you again for sharing, seriously), but 3 & 4 need more data, correct? I'm not trained to know to ask those questions.
I don't watch the news, but I doubt they're providing insight in these areas, so again, dial back the contention a little bit and know your personnel. If they are then I'll take my foot out of my mouth and try to educate myself based on the studies I bookmarked that you sent earlier (like a month ago, although they were mostly around pregnant & lactating chicks).
I am very thankful of the mother ####### miracle that is this vaccine. I don't pretend to know anything about mRNA technology, but it sounds ####### brilliant - I agree with you on all fronts there. BUT...it's still new and relatively untested in comparison to other vaccines. That's unnerving to a lot of people.
I don't trust the government or the media (we can agree to disagree there), but I do trust scientific evidence and make a living doing so in my own way...obviously not biological. Numbers don't lie.
The zero liability is something that raises eyebrows, but it's probably the only way .gov could get the industry to meet the timeline. It's still a red flag that's worth calling out. In every single proposal or job I've ever worked on, liabilities are contentious topics for a reason.
Change management is one of the more difficult areas of implementing any solution, in any industry. Especially something like this that is biological and has been hyper-politicized across a society that is at max polarization. Getting buy in from people as a whole is going to be a challenge for whatever reason they pose. If they're unwilling to talk about it, then cut bait and move on...they're part of the problem. I'm trying to understand and educate myself of the risks while calling out red flags, all the while planning to take the vaccine.
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Oculus Spirit [97758]
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I read up on them. Extensively.
May 5, 2021, 5:56 PM
[ in reply to Very complex and interesting conversation indeed ] |
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mRNA vaccines are new. mRNA technology is very old. About two decades old, actually a little more. People have spent 20 YEARS trying to figure out how to make an mRNA vaccine. The technology has been around since the 1990's to do it. The problem is when you inject lab animals with messenger RNA, it tends to cause a massive immune overreaction, a cytokine storm, and death or a very severe illness. Not good.
This is where the German company comes into the picture. It's run by a woman who has spent decades trying to figure out a delivery system for mRNA that would prevent the death of the host animal. When a test animal is injected, the massive amount of mRNA causes a massive immune response. So after years of research, she invented a system that uses "lipid nanoparticles" as a medium to inject the mRNA. The lipids (fat) protect the mRNA as it enters the body. As the fat slowly dissolves over days, the mRNA is slowly recognized by the immune system, and antibodies are created. The vaccine is different (and potentially safer) than other vaccines because other vaccines use either a different virus to synthesize the spike protein they're trying to create, or they use a host animal. For the J&J vaccine, they used an adenovirus. For Novax, they used moths. This means with those other vaccines, made "traditionally" in a more established manner, you are actually receiving moth rna, or adenovirus rna. With the mRNA vaccines, YOU make the spike protein, and they your body also attacks it, mimicking the virus almost perfectly.
The whole delay in mRNA vaccines was with the delivery system. That was solved by the German biotech company. Pfizer knew how to harvest and mass produce the mRNA and the vaccine, other than how to deliver it.
Originally, according to the german scientist, her goal for an mRNA vaccine was to cure certain cancers. Much like the HPV vaccine prevents certain cancers, there are many other cancers caused in part by many other viruses. Type 1 diabetes is another potential use.... to vaccinate against enteroviruses, which are believed to cause type 1 diabetes.
But as a whole, if you look at the entire process of the mRNA vaccines, it's actually far more "natural" than the other vaccines based on older technology. By using the mRNA from covid to cause your own body to produce the spike protein, then attack it, you're doing exactly the same thing as when you get covid. Plus, it can be customized to be an exact fit for any strain of covid, or any virus. No need to grow spike proteins in moths, or using other viruses. You do the work, and a whole step is removed from the process of making the vaccine. That's why they've been able to produce so much more mRNA vaccines than J&J/Astra Zeneca, and others. China is now doing human trials on their first mRNA vaccine. Probably stole our secrets I'm sure. But they have proven better, and safer, so far, than the more established vaccines.
Anyway, if you really do your research, it's not that scary. In fact, there may well be long term side effects to the mRNA vaccines, but those would be the same as whatever you would get with covid, as you're "getting" covid, technically. But the removal of a host animal or virus to create the spike protein, and letting you do it JUST LIKE you were infected, is a far more "natural" process. And as the mRNA only synthesizes the spike protein and not the full virus, you get immunity to the transmission protein the virus uses, without all the other "payload" in the virus that makes you really sick.
And in the future, there's a possible additional side effect as well. Say a country creates a pandemic virus, like some accuse China of doing. It can be done. Then say that country mass produced mRNA vaccines for that virus ahead of time, then they vaccinate their population, saying it's a smallpox vaccine or something, then they release the virus. Rest of the planet dies and you rule the world. Just a possible problem for future generations to deal with.
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All-In [42197]
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Perhaps more incentives need to be offered.
May 5, 2021, 2:52 PM
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I dunno, get crazy creative.
Get the vaccine, get entered in a special Powerball jackpot drawing that keeps rolling numbers until someone wins. Free Chick fil A for life for the 1 millionth next person to be vaccinated. Maybe a lovely evening out with five select Lungers of your choice.
C'mon guys, we can solve this.
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CU Medallion [56106]
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All-In [42197]
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It's gotta get more extreme.
May 5, 2021, 3:09 PM
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Not just a free Chick sandwich. Put a lifetime supply on the line if I win.
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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All-In [31520]
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Legend [15216]
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The obvious biggest incentive would be require vaccine
May 5, 2021, 3:01 PM
[ in reply to Perhaps more incentives need to be offered. ] |
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to go to school.
Millions of moms would sign up for that to avoid having to homeschool their kids.
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All-In [31908]
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Getting real close to offering to pay ppl who get...
May 5, 2021, 3:07 PM
[ in reply to Perhaps more incentives need to be offered. ] |
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at work.
At best, I think we're going to end up with 30-40% who get it on their own.
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110%er [9785]
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yeah, I say create a pool of Clemson students/alumni/fans
May 5, 2021, 3:29 PM
[ in reply to Perhaps more incentives need to be offered. ] |
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who get vaccinated in a lottery. Winner gets to run down the hill..
and of course "fans" have to get two different vaccines cause they don't count.
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All-In [42197]
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Winner gets to...
May 5, 2021, 3:31 PM
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To go on the sidelines and call the first offensive series against SC State.
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Heisman Winner [135623]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 12/6/98
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Lot o points [163012]
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A person can find a reason to not do something real easy
May 5, 2021, 4:52 PM
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and no amount of talk will convince them.
I see it as a patriotic duty for all. Yes there may be a risk, but a lot less risk than our soldiers take every day for our country.
I do wish there were a financial disincentive to not get the vaccine, as in, your health insurance either costs more or does not cover Covid illness if you do not have the vaccine.
Just my two cents.
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Team Captain [487]
TigerPulse: 86%
Posts: 398
Joined: 7/4/11
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All-In [31520]
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Joined: 1/28/15
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Re: Vaccine super thread offshoot
May 6, 2021, 6:13 AM
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CharlestonTom® Come get your boy
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Team Captain [487]
TigerPulse: 86%
Posts: 398
Joined: 7/4/11
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Replies: 50
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