Replies: 61
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All-In [34114]
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FUN RELIGION POLL
Jun 14, 2017, 1:27 PM
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Do you agree with the following sentence? “Muslims do not simply have a deficient theology. They do not know God because they have rejected Jesus Christ, His Son, and they stand condemned.”
Do you agree? [Results]
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Yes, because I am a Christian. |
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No, because I am not a Christian. |
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Yes, but I am not a Christian. |
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No, but I am a Christian. |
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All-In [38514]
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That wasn't fun.***
Jun 14, 2017, 1:29 PM
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All-In [34114]
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Dangit***
Jun 14, 2017, 1:30 PM
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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110%er [7013]
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It should have ended after the first sentence. Then I would
Jun 14, 2017, 1:56 PM
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say "Yes. But not a Christian."
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Heisman Winner [111734]
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3 seems lonely
Jun 14, 2017, 2:07 PM
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I take it we do not have any Scientologists or mormons on the board.
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All-In [34114]
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Finally got one.***
Jun 14, 2017, 2:20 PM
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: FUN RELIGION POLL
Jun 14, 2017, 2:29 PM
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#4 is impossible....
No one can be a true follower of Christ and believe that he is not the only way to God.
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All-In [34114]
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That's your view. Some disagree.***
Jun 14, 2017, 2:34 PM
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: That's your view. Some disagree.***
Jun 14, 2017, 2:44 PM
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John 14:6- "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'"
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All-In [34114]
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If you're saying that passage is the basis of your view,
Jun 14, 2017, 2:47 PM
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then that's great.
Apparently, people identifying as Christian differ on that point. But some may agree with you.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: If you're saying that passage is the basis of your view,
Jun 14, 2017, 2:52 PM
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I'm not sure how someone could square that passage and the belief that Jesus is NOT the only way.
Not to mention the rest of the New Testament writers confirming that doctrine.
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All-In [34114]
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We would need to ask each of them.***
Jun 14, 2017, 4:56 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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How many of their opinions do you want and just...
Jun 14, 2017, 8:27 PM
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how patient will you be to read all that s cript?
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: We would need to ask each of them.***
Jun 14, 2017, 8:27 PM
[ in reply to We would need to ask each of them.*** ] |
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I already know their answer....
They simply don't believe in the authority of scripture. You don't have to be in the dark about what it says, it CLEARLY teaches that Jesus is the only way. So what they do is pick out the verses that suit them and the ones they don't understand or don't particularly care for they toss to the side....like Felix2® just did....
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All-In [34114]
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Re: We would need to ask each of them.***
Jun 15, 2017, 10:22 AM
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We pick and choose, and we interpret things the way we happen to interpret them.
I wonder why you're even giving the time of day to non-believers, given what John said. Have you arrived at an interpretation that allows you to do so?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: We would need to ask each of them.***
Jun 15, 2017, 1:28 PM
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John didn't say anything about non believers, he said not to greet those who were teaching false doctrines and as far as I know nobody on this site is although it's obvious that some believe them.
In 3 John he says this- "Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, talking nonsense against us with malicious words."
So this wasn't John simply saying "oh just ignore them and they'll go away". He was going to confront them....
The book of Jude starts out with this: "Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ."
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All-In [34114]
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Way to reinterpret!
Jun 15, 2017, 1:38 PM
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You didn't need to prove my point as blatantly as that, but it certainly did the job.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Way to reinterpret!
Jun 15, 2017, 1:47 PM
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I didn't reinterpret anything, I just took the passages in context.
In 2 John he was addressing a family of believers who would welcome other believers into their home.
In 3 John he was talking about a specific "apostle" that was spreading false doctrines and causing problems in the church.
You can't read the Bible one verse at a time. You don't read anything else like that so why would you do that with the Bible? Everything needs to be taken in context and in light of other passages.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Way to reinterpret!
Jun 15, 2017, 1:51 PM
[ in reply to Way to reinterpret! ] |
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But spooneye this has nothing to do with your OP. There are things in the Bible up for interpretation but the doctrine that Jesus is the only way to God is not one of them. There is no passage that can be interpreted as saying He's not....
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All-In [34114]
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Re: Way to reinterpret!
Jun 15, 2017, 2:07 PM
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You reinterpreted by changing the words. It's evident to anyone who wants to read your posts. It's fine. I'm not judging.
And yes, this has everything to do with the OP. A person can interpret the Bible in countless ways, including as non-literal (as many do with some of the books, and some do with all the books).
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Way to reinterpret!
Jun 15, 2017, 3:22 PM
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I'm lost as to what words I changed but ok....
Yes you can say I don't believe in a literal flood or a literal talking snake but you can't say I don't believe Jesus is the only way to God when He clearly said he was.
John 3:16 says "that whosoever believes in Him", it doesn't say Him, Muhammad, or Buddha....
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All-In [34114]
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Re: Way to reinterpret!
Jun 15, 2017, 3:38 PM
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Yes you can say I don't believe in a literal flood or a literal talking snake but you can't say I don't believe Jesus is the only way to God when He clearly said he was.
John 3:16 says "that whosoever believes in Him", it doesn't say Him, Muhammad, or Buddha....
You can say I don't believe in a literal floor or a literal talking snake or a literal son of a god or a literal hell for people who don't literally believe in it all.
Each Christian chooses whether to take none, some, or all of it literally, and the rest metaphorically.
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Legend [15749]
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Some people who consider themselves Christian may
Jun 14, 2017, 2:54 PM
[ in reply to If you're saying that passage is the basis of your view, ] |
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choose not to believe that, but I THINK any authority on any Christian denomination would say that that is the belief of the faith.
Like I have many Catholic friends who are pro-abortion, even though the Catholic Church is clearly anti-abortion.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: That's your view. Some disagree.***
Jun 14, 2017, 7:56 PM
[ in reply to Re: That's your view. Some disagree.*** ] |
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> John 14:6- "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the > truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except > through me'"
Some how, magically, some of you Bible beaters ignore John 14:12 - " Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
You preach to everyone without the least bit of humility. I think you miss the good parts, the one's that require some action other than condemnation of others.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: That's your view. Some disagree.***
Jun 14, 2017, 8:09 PM
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What the heck are you talking about?
Simply posting a verse that shows that Jesus said he was the only way to God is not preaching.
You need to get over yourself....
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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Have you ever rubbed the skin off of your arm or leg?
Jun 14, 2017, 8:26 PM
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When the skin is removed even a light breeze moving the hair growing in the skinned spot hurts.
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: That's very interesting.
Jun 14, 2017, 8:36 PM
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He was talking about prayer and the indwelling of the holy spirit.
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All-In [28802]
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I haven't seen a lot of condemnation from people
Jun 15, 2017, 11:52 AM
[ in reply to Re: That's your view. Some disagree.*** ] |
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The point isn't who we want to condemn, or who we're condemning. But since this particular discussion is about soteriology- the doctrine of salvation- anybody who's not a universalist has to have some criteria for who's "saved" which will leave some "condemned" out. The problem with a works-based theology rather than a grace-based one (which, I think, can include statements about what a person who believes might do) is that it begins to sound like you're saving yourself by doing something, and that you deserve salvation. But from the grace-based point of view, everyone is worthy of condemnation and it's only through God's undeserved grace that anybody is saved. I think people like Sanders who are taking offense to what Vought wrote are assuming Vought was making some kind of judgment of the character or dignity of Muslims, when in fact he was talking about their theology- their relationship with God.
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All-In [28802]
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There are unorthodox Christians
Jun 15, 2017, 11:42 AM
[ in reply to That's your view. Some disagree.*** ] |
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There are also people who like the traditions of Christianity who don't really believe much of what Christians believe.
There's another option, though, which is that you might believe that Christ can still save people with "deficient theologies" that don't explicitly acknowledge Christ's divinity. I think that's a difficult stance to take theologically, but it's one that a lot of Catholics take.
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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All-In [34114]
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As of an hour later...
Jun 14, 2017, 2:34 PM
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Of those identifying as Christian, 4 agreed and 5 did not agree with Vought's statement.
Current results: Yes, because I am a Christian: 4 (24%) No, because I am not a Christian. 7 (41%) Yes, but I am not a Christian. 1 (6%) No, but I am a Christian. 5 (29%)
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All-In [31918]
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I'm sure an internet poll on a message bored filled...
Jun 14, 2017, 2:51 PM
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with scoks is a reliable sample
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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Re: I'm sure an internet poll on a message bored filled...
Jun 14, 2017, 3:00 PM
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All my scoks have holes in them.
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All-In [34114]
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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I'll concede that most Christians have no clue about how...
Jun 14, 2017, 5:35 PM
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the Bible lays this out due to not reading it. So, most people believe in evolution but haven't the faintest clue about the origin of evolution.
I am often ignored when I say Darwin 'proved,' evolution by slaying blacks and nonwhite people and presenting them as 'THE,' missing link between man (whites) and animal, apes or monkeys. That's why it's so offensive to hang a banana peels on a BLM sign.
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All-In [31918]
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All-In [34114]
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n=1? Worst sample size ever.
Jun 15, 2017, 10:23 AM
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All-In [31918]
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not when the 1 happens to always be correct***
Jun 15, 2017, 1:02 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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'Yes, spooneye. I am a Christian...
Jun 14, 2017, 2:58 PM
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I have ear plugs, let'er rip. I won't budge until you send for the lions. Then, I don't know if I'll change my tune or not.
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All-In [34114]
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Vought could have responded either yes or no.
Jun 14, 2017, 5:03 PM
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As plenty of people did in this poll.
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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I qualified my response.
Jun 14, 2017, 5:28 PM
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Some question merit more than a yes or no answer. Sessions refused to respond to one senator who asked for a yes/no answer without qualification. He said if I answer your questions without explaining 'you will call me a liar.'
Voughn wasn't participating in a poll. I didn't with your poll until after I posted a qualifying statement.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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All-In [34114]
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You're really bending over backwards to help this Vought guy***
Jun 14, 2017, 5:49 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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It seems I'm defending myself since he and I appear to...
Jun 14, 2017, 6:11 PM
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have identical beliefs when it comes to such as was discussed. Frankly, I've heard rumors that those who follow Bernie aren't voting for another democrat. If we have a socialist party I'm going to donate to their candidate so liberal will be sucked off away from the democrat party.
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All-In [34114]
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About four hours later...
Jun 14, 2017, 5:20 PM
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Of those identifying as Christian, 7 agreed and 9 did not agree with Vought's statement.
("But it's not a reliable sample!" -flow)
Current results: Yes, because I am a Christian: 7 (27%) No, because I am not a Christian. 9 (35%) Yes, but I am not a Christian. 1 (4%) No, but I am a Christian. 9 (35%)
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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What's up with you and poles?
Jun 14, 2017, 5:37 PM
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Soft toss, couldn't resist.
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Legend [17918]
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There is something fun about differing opinions
Jun 14, 2017, 11:48 PM
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and there can be many debates, and have been many debates (not just in the P&R) about what the Bible teaches. However, while somethings are debatable, some things are not.
That Jesus Himself, as recorded, says He "is the way and the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father but by Me," is non-debatable. Whether one believes it or not only differentiates whether one is truly a Christian or simply one who claims to be.
Jesus is who He says He is, or He isn't. One is right one is wrong. There is no "safe ground" in between. Jesus also says something else many do not want to hear - when He speaks specifically to those who claim to know Him:
Matthew 7:21-23; “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"
That Jesus says to them, "I never knew you," is interesting. It is also emphatic. A statement that gives no gray area - He knows you or He doesn't. It really doesn't matter what one might say or do concerning their "faith" in Jesus, as He illustrates. Therefore, there is a false doctrine and lifestyle that is emphatically not what Jesus [demands] of those who are His. Calling Him a liar, and living and teaching a contrary doctrine that is opposed to Him...well, that should be easy enough for one to figure out when it comes to determining which side of the isle one really stands.
But hey, everyone has the "right" to do and say as they desire. That said, if someone chooses to call themselves a Christian and yet, deny the very core of the Christian faith (Jesus Himself), then I, and many like me, will stand in the face of such ignorance and point out the hypocrite that keeps them from really coming to church and knowing God is no one other than themselves.
BTW, what is the will of God? Jesus has something to say about that too.
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All-In [34114]
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In the end, people disagree on what "Christian" means.
Jun 15, 2017, 10:18 AM
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It's a vague term, for better or worse.
For instance, there are many people who identify as Christian, including many who go to church and practice a specific denomination, yet they do not believe what you just posted. And there's no rule book, not even the Bible, that determines the number of ways in which someone may think of themselves as a "Christian."
Many self-identifying Christians, in fact, do not believe that the Bible is literally true. But they think it is a good thing to follow the moral teachings of Jesus.
You are free to have a different view. You can say they're not really Christians, as you mean the term Christian. But what if someone else says that you're not a Christian because yesterday you joked about detonating a nuclear device over North Korea?
We can only say to that person, as I say to you: You are entitled to your particular understanding of what a Christian is. Perhaps it would be nice if we could have different words for different conceptions of the religion, but then there might be as many words for Christian as there are people who identify as such.
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Legend [17918]
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To be sure , they do disagree on the definition
Jun 15, 2017, 2:17 PM
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But, to change the terms of Christ's teachings is not the equivalent to molding the definition of what a Christian is. That is changing the core teaching of the One who is the cornerstone of Christianity itself. That is Non-Christian.
To that I say, just go start your own faith and practice, and give it a name all its own. But, if one is going to be dishonest with the teachings of Christ, why should one expect they would be honest with what they really believe and teach?
BTW, please don't feel as though I am attacking... I enjoy conversing with you - honestly and without malice. Thanks for being one (of the few) on here who allows that.
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All-In [34114]
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It's not necessarily changing the terms.
Jun 15, 2017, 2:29 PM
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It could just be that some believe the Bible should be taken literally and some believe it's just a metaphor with a less direct meaning. And some people are in between, and (for instance) think Jesus was real while doubting the story of Genesis.
None of these people need to abandon Christianity and start a new religion, because all of these versions already call themselves Christians, and there are Christians of all varieties of belief in just about every church.
Thank you, HuntClub, and I never see you as attacking. I was interested enough in your viewpoint to buy your book, remember?
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All-In [46574]
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When we line ourselves up with the LOVE and forgiveness
Jun 15, 2017, 7:21 AM
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Jesus had this to say about how we are to love God and one another and this should be how we live and react to one another. I love all you guys no matter your beliefs.
Matthew 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: When we line ourselves up with the LOVE and forgiveness
Jun 15, 2017, 8:39 AM
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That's right BUT....
Jesus also warned about false prophets and the early church was much more intolerant of them than the Church is today it seems. Even something as subtle as the belief that Jesus did not come in the flesh which is what the apostle John was addressing in 2 and 3 John and Jude in his letter as well.
2 John 7-11:"For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds."
So that's pretty heavy stuff....John doesn't say if someone comes to you with a false doctrine give them a hug and tell them you love them anyway. He says do not even greet him....
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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Why then do you address the liberals?***
Jun 15, 2017, 10:00 AM
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Why then do you address the liberals?***
Jun 15, 2017, 11:07 AM
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I don't follow....
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All-In [28802]
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I'd be curious to know...
Jun 15, 2017, 11:34 AM
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how many of the people who answered, "No, and I am a Christian" actually go to church and consider themselves orthodox Christians. It might also be interesting to split that out to find out how many of them consider Muslims to have a "deficient theology" (which you'd expect nearly all Christians to agree with, unless they're unitarian-universalists or something) and how many take that deficient theology, which rejects Jesus Christ, "His Son," to also mean that Muslims "stand condemned."
I would imagine a lot of the people answering that they disagree with the statement are unorthodox in a lot of ways, or they may simply not be very serious about their faith. Polls of Christians frequently show high levels of unorthodoxy on some pretty basic theology, especially among mainline Protestants and Catholics, who are more likely not to attend church. Others might agree that Muslims have a deficient theology, but also take the view (prevalent among Catholics) that although all are saved through Christ, those who don't explicitly worship Christ in His church can also be saved. Many Catholics also believe in the traditional idea of a purgatory where those whose theology may be deficient might go after death.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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All-In [34114]
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Here's a start.
Jun 15, 2017, 11:51 AM
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My mother would have answered "No, and I am a Christian." She is a member of the Presbyterian church. She plays bells in the handbell choir. She believes in God. She does not take the Bible as literally true. She thinks religion has much more to offer than you get by taking the Bible stories literally.
She doesn't believe Muslims have a "deficient theology" or that they "do not know God because they have rejected Jesus Christ, His Son, and they stand condemned." She certainly doesn't think that Christianity is the only way to God.
Although I have not spoken to many people in as much depth as I have with my mother, what I have heard others say makes it seem that her beliefs are not at all unusual.
You mentioned Catholics and purgatory: No Catholic I know (and they make up a large part of my family) has ever expressed a belief in purgatory.
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All-In [28802]
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Right, and she would certainly be "unorthodox"
Jun 15, 2017, 11:57 AM
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I would also guess she goes to a PCUSA church, although I'm pretty sure the views you say she has aren't orthodox among PCUSA members, either. As I said, unorthodox beliefs are more prevalent among mainline Protestants.
But the point of all this isn't what's common or uncommon. Vought expressed a very mainstream, orthodox, Christian point of view. It would be more proper for him to express the views he did as coming out of his Christianity than it would be for someone to express the views you say your mother has as coming from Christianity. And it really isn't any business of a Senator to try to mediate between those theological positions.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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All-In [34114]
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Re: Right, and she would certainly be "unorthodox"
Jun 15, 2017, 12:52 PM
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Is there a difference between "orthodox" and "fundamentalist"? I have no idea what PCUSA is and I went to Presbyterian church for years. (Shows you how much certain churches care about even pointing out these things.)
Knowing what Vought, as an "orthodox" (or what I would call fundamentalist) Christian, seriously believes about Muslims and Jews is as important as knowing what a fundamentalist Muslim believes. Which is to say, very important.
At least to me and Bernie. You are free to feel differently.
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Legend [15749]
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Since this is vexing you so, I just want to be clear:
Jun 15, 2017, 3:22 PM
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Yes, this man thinks that Muslims are ultimately condemned because they don't accept Jesus as the one true son of God. And correct, he didn't answer Bernie in the "Yes/no" format that both you and Bernie require.
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All-In [34114]
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Thank you, Swarley. I am now unvexed.***
Jun 15, 2017, 3:41 PM
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Legend [15749]
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Of course. Couldn't let this interfere with the weekend.***
Jun 15, 2017, 3:51 PM
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