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Legend [19202]
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Open forum on why Clemson's offense
Nov 6, 2022, 7:10 AM
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Is not dynamic anymore. Rules: No insults to players or coaches but cold, rational reasons/opinions on what has happened to bring us to this point.
I'll start: QB play is too easy to focus on so I will take another track. Our receivers have not been taught or have the talent to get separation. In addition, they do not fight for the ball (coaching?), nor do they catch balls close to them like receivers we had in the 2010's. This is an liability because of talent or development. I think it is linked to both. Your thoughts.
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Orange Blooded [4498]
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Re: Open forum on why Clemson's offense
Nov 6, 2022, 7:12 AM
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Since you skipped it I’ll go with QB is confused and indecisive. Wrs lack explosiveness, can’t or won’t block, create no separation. But the granddaddy of all is the play calling is 1990s era horrible.
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Legend [19202]
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And the lack of separation or explosiveness
Nov 6, 2022, 7:15 AM
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Is talent or coaching?
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Orange Blooded [4498]
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Re: And the lack of separation or explosiveness
Nov 6, 2022, 7:18 AM
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Good question. I think we have taken a huge step back in talent, but lack the coaching to develop what we have. Would dj look better throwing it up to Tee, Nuk, Sammy, Mike W? Probably (assuming he’d throw it).
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Head Coach [785]
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Re: And the lack of separation or explosiveness
Nov 6, 2022, 7:54 AM
[ in reply to And the lack of separation or explosiveness ] |
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I think it’s both talent and coaching but I’d put it more on coaching/development and talent assessment. Ex: DJU may have been a 5 star QB, but our coaches have not developed him in a way to get the most out of his talents at Clemson. I’d contend they’ve made him worse trying to fit him into what we do. We’re not void of talent at QB but DJ is a bad fit for our offense. We’re doing a very poor job matching / developing talent with whatever our scheme is. My greater concern is our offensive scheme is so bad, we continue to miss out on great recruits because HS players believe (know?) we’re a mess on offense. I’m very worried this is what’s happening at WR. Our skill and talent at that position is nowhere near it used to be.
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Orange Blooded [2420]
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Legend [16439]
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We have played nine games this season
Nov 6, 2022, 7:21 AM
[ in reply to Re: Open forum on why Clemson's offense ] |
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You’ve seen them all. In how many of those games did you feel like we “won” at the QB position? Definitely less than a third, maybe even zero. Eight of these games were wins, but we definitely did not have the better quarterback 8 times.
I think we have QB talent; we just need a better scheme, better coaching, something. These things make a difference. Just ask Hendan Hooker. If Scott Satterfield offered to trade QBs before the Louisville game, I bet most of us would take him up on it.
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Orange Blooded [2248]
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Re: Open forum on why Clemson's offense
Nov 6, 2022, 7:27 AM
[ in reply to Re: Open forum on why Clemson's offense ] |
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I believe that it is linked to play calling, but more along the lines of pace. I think that we spend so much time trying to get the perfect play call in that we can't get in a rhythm.
I did think that the play calling was atrocious early on last night. I don't know if Streeter was trying to protect DJ's psyche or what but nothing went down field with the exception of the 4th down pass. If I remember DJ's stat line for the first half was 8 of 11 for 39 yards. If you had told me that he was at 77% in the first half, I would have said that we were winning in a blowout.
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Legend [19202]
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Question then would be, with limited
Nov 6, 2022, 7:32 AM
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Talent at receiver, how to strategize and use it effectively as can be done.
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Orange Blooded [2248]
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Re: Question then would be, with limited
Nov 6, 2022, 7:55 AM
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The thing is, I don't think that we are as limited at receiver as most people. Antonio Williams is having a great year. Beaux Collins looked good early. Both Allen and Briningstool (probably misspelled both) have looked good. Though Ngata is not playing like a primary receiver, he has played relatively solid.
I really think that we need a new WR coach. I know Taylor is coming back from injury, but he has been nonexistent this year. EJ Williams looked like he would be great as a freshman and has since fizzled. I am not sure if Spector has been injured again, or just disappeared with the emergence of Antonio Williams. I think that Randall has the talent, but I don't know if we will see it. I think that Grisham is by far our biggest liability as a coach.
I guess that was a really long way for me to say that I think that the talent is there.
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CU Guru [1577]
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I agree
Nov 6, 2022, 9:03 AM
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I lost a little faith in Grisham last year when he continued to allow players on the field that were blatantly not blocking on screen plays and blatantly giving up on routes. Not a bash, just facts.
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CU Guru [1045]
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Re: Open forum on why Clemson's offense
Nov 6, 2022, 7:14 AM
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Talent is the primary issue.
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Commissioner [923]
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QB play, Oline, WR, RB , play calling everything Offense***
Nov 6, 2022, 7:16 AM
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Legend [19202]
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Untrue since the O has scored 30 points
Nov 6, 2022, 7:18 AM
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In many games played. Go for a deeper analysis rather than shallow.
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Legend [19933]
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Re: Open forum on why Clemson's offense
Nov 6, 2022, 7:16 AM
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It's all on the complacency of the coaching staff. No innovation, no 'killer instinct'.
Don't hate the playa, hate the shame.
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Orange Blooded [4011]
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WR group hands down
Nov 6, 2022, 7:21 AM
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Can’t run crisp routes
Can’t block worth a toot
And can’t got up and catch the ball
We’ve got our issues at QB, no doubt. But this WR group is the worst bunch in the Dabo era. I feel sorry for DJ and Cade because it’s so bad.
Dabo has got to do something there because we haven’t recruited well or coached well there in the last 3-4 years and it’s showing up real bad now.
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Legend [18790]
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I agree with this...
Nov 6, 2022, 7:50 AM
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When a true freshman shows up and is automatically your best WR, then you have issues.
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All-TigerNet [10905]
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An example is Klubnik's interception...sure, he shouldn't
Nov 6, 2022, 8:11 AM
[ in reply to WR group hands down ] |
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have thrown it, but Mike Williams would have probably caught it, or it definitely wouldn't have been intercepted, because Mike would go after it instead of just waiting on it like our receiver did!
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Legend [19202]
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I actually think the running game, when used
Nov 6, 2022, 7:24 AM
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is pretty good. The O-line has created good holds for our running backs. Now 3rd and 1's always concern me because the D goes into a box and we run straight at it. I don't think we use the running game as we should. It does eat clock and limit explosive plays but could also open passing game if we threw it beyond the line of scrimmage.
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Orange Blooded [2248]
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Re: I actually think the running game, when used
Nov 6, 2022, 7:34 AM
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But why should we want to eat clock? We are, generally, the better team on the field. The more possessions, the more chances we have for statistics to bear out.
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110%er [6474]
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Re: I actually think the running game, when used
Nov 6, 2022, 7:51 AM
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Ask Kirby or Saban why you eat clock.
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Orange Blooded [2248]
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Re: I actually think the running game, when used
Nov 6, 2022, 7:58 AM
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Why would I? They don't anymore.
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110%er [6474]
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Re: I actually think the running game, when used
Nov 6, 2022, 8:50 AM
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They definitely do.
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Mascot [20]
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Re: Open forum on why Clemson's offense
Nov 6, 2022, 7:31 AM
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OK .....been reading and i just have to respond. The offense has zero scheme, in a true offense you run 1 play to open another up,.............we are NOT doing this. Being a former coach I ALWAYS see the open alternative after a short run or pass, IE: backside was open 2, plays later run the front and throw keep or give the second option. As i see it we have a "draw it in the sand" playground offense.
When you have GREAT talent as in the past teams,we could simply overpower or overtalent other teams. NOW we cannot .......Need to install several simple RPO's with at least 3 options of each play NOW!!!!
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Legend [19202]
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Good points!
Nov 6, 2022, 7:35 AM
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Options help!
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CU Guru [1155]
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OK…I’ll play…no bashing here
Nov 6, 2022, 7:32 AM
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1). Our main RB averaged more yds per carry than our QB did in yds per pass. That is a problem with distribution and type of passes that we call.
2). Our WRs have not played with intensity or aggression. They simply are not football players with the exception of two guys. With as much blocking on the edge that our offense requires, this is an issue.
As such, we need to probably adjust our calls to the perimeter.
3) Our QB is baffling. I am not sure I have ever seen anything like him. Ever. Seemingly, His reaction to negativity is to go into a shell. Again, he needs help in the play calling, but he needs to find a way to shake it off.
4) Our OL played OK. Our D played well enough to win ( only gave up one TD through three quarters).
That’s all I’ve got….be creative and instill some toughness/heart. That second part might be the biggest challenge.
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Orange Blooded [2533]
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The depot / junction / interchange of the O
Nov 6, 2022, 7:34 AM
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- and the crux of the matter - is at QB. Obvious example is T.Brady and Joe Montana with "average" arms but great decision makers and not always great receivers but always made the players around them better. A very good QB even with average receivers will make them look good.
This said, I will do something different here: defer to the Tiger radio commentators during the game, particularly Merriweather (I listened to the whole game on radio until I finally couldn't listen anymore). Here are some of the phrases used during various plays:
"Wow, (DJ) shoulda' pulled that ball and run, it was wide open, the D end obviously bent in"
"held the ball too long, can't do that, have to get outta' there or throw it away, can't take that sack"
"Williams floated wide open over the middle but he was locked on over there on (Ngata)"
And on and on, all night. Notice the weather had nothing to do with any of this commentary.
Our receivers - with the exception of Allen and a true freshman - are nothing special, that is for sure. But the QB has to also make them better.
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Athletic Dir [881]
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This had***
Nov 6, 2022, 7:53 AM
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Athletic Dir [881]
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This is more of the issue than most people
Nov 6, 2022, 8:01 AM
[ in reply to The depot / junction / interchange of the O ] |
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realize. QB has to make the right decision quickly in RPOs, zone reads, and passing. DJ struggles mightily at times. Once he loses confidence he can't even execute the most simple reads. That's why cade was able to lead us to victory over cuse and only passed the ball a couple times.
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Mascot [23]
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Re: This is more of the issue than most people
Nov 6, 2022, 8:21 AM
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realize. QB has to make the right decision quickly in RPOs, zone reads, and passing. DJ struggles mightily at times. Once he loses confidence he can't even execute the most simple reads. That's why cade was able to lead us to victory over cuse and only passed the ball a couple times.
We have had zero WR development since Jeff Scott left for USF. QB development has been almost nonexistent since Morris left for SMU. If you look at the last 4 QBs we’ve had (Watson-DJ) their development was pretty much zero once Streeter took over. We’ve had some generational talent at that position but no development like you see at schools like ole miss, Oregon, etc.
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Scout Team [190]
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Re: Open forum on why Clemson's offense
Nov 6, 2022, 7:35 AM
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The offense has issues on every level. We do not have a dominate o-line. We do not have wide receivers who strike for into opposing defensive coordinators. They do not create any separation or win off the line of scrimmage, hence all the main coverage. With man on the outside, now you have 7-8 in the box and linebackers playing down hill. We refuse to use the middle of the field in the passing game. (When we do we get our chunk plays.) We use to stress defenses with up tempo, now we slog along. The scheme is stale, we have no creativity. Remember when we killed Bama, Saban complained at half time about copy-cat plays we ran against them. Lastly, let the QB go out and play free, it appears he is trying to make the perfect read every time.
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110%er [6474]
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Re: Open forum on why Clemson's offense
Nov 6, 2022, 7:41 AM
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1. We have never had a coordinator worth a crap. Dabo packed an O with talent. That talent was able to perform despite having a poor offensive play caller.
2. Player development on offense sucks.
3,. D.J. is a bust.
4. Defense is fine. Defenses problems are caused by offense. Wess is not B.V. but give him another year and he will be.
There must be a TOTAL house cleaning of the offensive staff. (Except C.J. Our backs look good)
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CU Medallion [65514]
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One thing I see, over and over on other teams, is the
Nov 6, 2022, 7:41 AM
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offensive coaches have been able to come up with plays that, scheme wise, get players WIDE open in space. We don't seem to have any of those plays. (Those type plays take time to develop, and it is not likely our offensive line would give DJ that kind of time anyway.)
And, we have totally gotten away from the presnap motion, the "Eye Candy", if you will, that was a staple of the success of the fast paced Clemson offenses of the past. AND, we have gotten away from the "fast".
There are other reasons, but those are good for starters.
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110%er [5101]
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Re: One thing I see, over and over on other teams, is the
Nov 6, 2022, 7:54 AM
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Agree with 76. There never seems to be someone open for easy plays which comes from good schemes. Everything just looks so difficult. I watch some teams with 2-3 star talent move the ball up and down the field.
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Orange Blooded [2248]
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Re: One thing I see, over and over on other teams, is the
Nov 6, 2022, 8:05 AM
[ in reply to One thing I see, over and over on other teams, is the ] |
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I agree about the "eye candy". Not only does it give the defense something to think about, it often forces them to show their hand with their coverage.
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Legend [19202]
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Now I will venture into the QB question
Nov 6, 2022, 7:43 AM
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Current starter is too slow on traditional runs and on decisions on downfield receivers. Does this slowness create game planning using screens because those seem easier to connect on without quick decisions on downfield receivers? Current starter is model student athlete but not elite QB for top college football program . Thoughts?
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Orange Blooded [2248]
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Re: Now I will venture into the QB question
Nov 6, 2022, 8:13 AM
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And I will go back to pace. DJ seems to play better when he plays fast. I know that the defense had changed as well as the play calling last night, but exhibit A. I am going to ignore the pick 6. Ngata was not on the same page and I don't know who if not both were in the wrong. We have also had drives late in the first half where we were playing with pace that he looked good. I am guessing that it is less thinking and more reaction.
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Orange Blooded [2862]
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The offense plays like they're as sick of our stale scheme
Nov 6, 2022, 7:49 AM
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As we are of seeing it. Everything looks slow and mechanical... reminiscent of the Spence days
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Legend [19202]
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One other item on all of this-what do trends
Nov 6, 2022, 7:51 AM
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Currently tell us about offensive schemes of the best offensive teams in the nation? These could be bellwethers for who to recruit and what scheme to run to become explosive again on offense.
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110%er [6397]
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Re: Open forum on why Clemson's offense
Nov 6, 2022, 8:01 AM
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Development hasn’t been good enough. But, the scheme is stale. We’ve been running the same scheme for almost a decade. Eventually defenses adjust. We’ve had the illusion of success because Trevor and Etienne were so elite. Now that they’re gone, our basic scheme is rearing its ugly head.
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110%er [5225]
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WR core is average at best.***
Nov 6, 2022, 8:01 AM
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CU Guru [1577]
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Lots to unpack here.
Nov 6, 2022, 8:03 AM
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1. We have a starting QB that seems confused / lacking confidence in the RPO game. Over the past 10 years we’ve had QB’s that made the right decision 90% of the time and it made our play calling look great. Now we have a QB that has made up his mind presnap and therefore makes our Oline look bad when he hands it off into a run blitz or throws it into heavy coverage. I’ve said all along that an RPO offense would be a nightmare to block for. There are only two fixes here and we haven’t done either. A. Get a new QB, B. Call specific plays.
2. Outside of D. Allen and A. Williams our passing game is on life support (These points don’t apply to them). They don’t get good separation but that’s a three part problem. A. We’ve heard in the past that the Clemson route tree and route concepts are mocked by pro coaches and I’m curious to know if that’s true. Hard to get separation when your routes are basic. B. Receivers don’t run crisp routes and don’t fight for the ball. C. They arent being thrown open or targeted when they are open. It’s hard to stay inspired when you are constantly getting the ball early/late/not at all. DJ doesn’t trust his recievers and won’t release the ball until they’re open.
3. I overall don’t like the scheme and it feels like something is off with the offensive coaches. It feels like K. Richardson has some good concepts as evidenced by our two minute offense and their success. It was interesting reading the article a month or so ago where it was revealed the O coaching staff is split into groups that are responsible for different phases of the game. Maybe that’s why they can’t find rhythm?
Bottom line is that our coaching staff gets paid a ton of money to know our players and build a scheme they can be successful in. Do we think they have?
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Legend [19202]
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Good points!
Nov 6, 2022, 8:07 AM
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Splitting the staff into groups with different concepts seem unintuitive.
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Orange Blooded [2248]
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Re: Lots to unpack here.
Nov 6, 2022, 8:17 AM
[ in reply to Lots to unpack here. ] |
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I missed the article that you are referring to. Was it on here or another site?
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CU Guru [1577]
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Head Coach [785]
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Re: Lots to unpack here.
Nov 6, 2022, 8:38 AM
[ in reply to Lots to unpack here. ] |
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Very good post. Excellent job describing several multi-variable issues with our offense.
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CU Guru [1149]
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Re: Open forum on why Clemson's offense
Nov 6, 2022, 8:12 AM
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Simple-
Because they don’t call dynamic plays or Plays to suit the Qb’s style.
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Walk-On [128]
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Re: Open forum on why Clemson's offense
Nov 6, 2022, 8:30 AM
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NIL money.
sucking the incentive out of the have-nots.
Plus all that stuff you guys said.
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Orange Blooded [3977]
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Re: Open forum on why Clemson's offense
Nov 6, 2022, 8:44 AM
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It's starts with the entire offensive coaching staff at every position, you can def see the dif in our WRs not being dominant 1 on 1 players we use to have, but the horrible play calling and indecisiveness on the QB is horrendous. To nor even attack the field until its to late is ridiculous. Bottom line is, this offense is way to easy to game plan for....defenses lick their chops knowing they get play a game in a 5 yard box.
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Varsity [219]
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Re: Open forum on why Clemson's offense
Nov 6, 2022, 8:48 AM
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My thoughts are that the only person who can solve all of this mess and I mean mess is Dabo Swinney. He seems to be absolutely stuck in a rut of compromise with DJ …I don’t understand it, I haven’t understood it . This public humiliating loss will be hanging like an albatross around our program for years to come! Needless to say I am extremely disappointed!
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Orange Blooded [3637]
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Re: Open forum on why Clemson's offense
Nov 6, 2022, 8:51 AM
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As with most things, you really don't want to overreact to a single loss.
That being said, the worries about the offense have been present in the fanbase since 2019 from a schematic standpoint.
So, starting from the top;
1) The scheme itself - we've been running the same (roughly) scheme since Chad Morris and it's just possible that with all that film to digest, defenses have just figured out what we try to do and are countering it. We like to say 'we get everyone's best shot' and while that's true, perhaps that's not the ONLY reason people play us close.
2) New coordinator - I like Streeter (he was QB while I was there) and he's got experience with play calling but there's obviously going to be an adjustment when stepping into play calling for a big time program. At times, the offense has looked good but the issue here is that by promoting from within Dabo has given the opportunity for people to ask the question 'We're a national program. Was our QB coach really the absolute best we could have gotten to run this offense?'. And it's just a bad comparison for a first time coordinator vs. the field.
3) Talent misses/falloff - I don't think it can be argued that WR talent has fallen off since the '18/'19 seasons. Whether that's so many transferring out, recruiting misses or taking 'projects' (Ajou for example), we haven't seemed to get those stud DUDES we used to just stack. Give DJ Tee Higgins or Justin Ross healthy and this might be different.
4) QB position - I don't get paid big time $$$ to solve the issue here and so I won't even try. DJ may be a fine QB overall but he doesn't seem to excel at what we're asking him to do. Combine that with the staff's seeming irrational dedication to him (and I get it, he's a great kid/injuries/other players falling off etc...) and it's just strange all around. I have compared our offense with DJ (even when it's working) to an engine with the fuel/air mixture being off, it's running but it's not quite right. Then there are nights like tonight where it just stalls completely.
To leave on a positive note; all this being said our offense this year is better than last year... so the arc does at least seem to be positive, albeit from a really low point.
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CU Guru [1423]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 1365
Joined: 11/30/98
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Re: Open forum on why Clemson's offense (Streeter)
Nov 6, 2022, 8:52 AM
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Streeter’s philosophy about moving the chains. If 1st down gets stuffed.. He said on 2nd down our goal is to get half of it back. A 10yard pass should be “do-able” on any given down. When we try to use 3 downs to get a simple 10-yards the odds of mistakes greatly increases (sacks, missed block, bad snap, dropped ball, etc..). We must incorporate more plays designed to move the chains on that “call” and stop “nickel-diming” ourselves to get a simple 10-yards. It’s painful to watch and way more complicated than it has to be.
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Orange Blooded [2006]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2736
Joined: 9/23/12
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Re: Open forum on why Clemson's offense (Streeter)
Nov 6, 2022, 9:11 AM
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This…. 100x this. There is zero creativity on offense. Where are the jet sweeps? Stop with the screens. If the WRs don’t block what’s the point. I watched film of Tee, Ross, rodgers all those dudes blocked. Go back to Mike, Hunter and Tee as a freshmen. They all blocked. So Artavis was running wild in the jets sweep game. We need to move our play makers in space give the defense more to look at. Make it quick decisions for DJ or whomever is at QB. Our WRs don’t have that dawg mentality they had when Scott was coaching them. It all starts with them. Where is the chemistry we had with them. The WRs don’t trust DJ and he definitely don’t trust them and it shows. He played like a man possessed when he played with Cornell Powell and Amari Rodgers in South Bend not even 3 years ago. What’s gives??? The WRs.
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