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Replies: 23
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CU Guru [1502]
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Brownell (2017-2023) vs Brownell (2011-2017) vs Purnell (2004-2010)
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Mar 5, 2023, 11:20 PM
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Some other poster had made a post about Brownell’s last six years verses his previous years at Clemson. This is a bit of a take on that. I’ll also caveat all of this by stating that I am a little biased, but mostly not. I like Coach Brownell, and I’ve never disliked him anymore than I have ever disliked any other Clemson Coach for any of the reasons I would normally which is disappointment, frustration, and futility. That’s just Clemson basketball.
Personally, I respect and like that he seems to respect Clemson and likes being here, didn’t high tail it out of here after 2017-2018 season, runs a clean program, and has improved Clemson’s ACC regular season play. I have disliked him for the same reasons I’ve disliked all other Clemson basketball coaches: ACC/NCAA Tournament futility/lack of consistent success. I hope he gets an extension because I think he’s earned it, but if it’s only 3 years, instead of 5, I could totally understand that. I also understand how some are ready to look elsewhere. While I disagree, I certainly understand it. What I do not understand at all about this site is the multiple posters who seem to genuinely HATE Brad Brownell as if he beat up Santa Claus or stole Danny Ford’s cattle. The disgusting disdain for him is absurdly ridiculous and a mystery to me. Anyhow, I hope you enjoy the stats. I have rounded up in averages, and if I am off a number or two, I apologize. Go Tigers! Beat whoever on Thursday-Saturday.
According to the ladies and gents of the Internet stats departments:
Brownell 2017-2023
Overall Six Year Record:
(My figures, might be off)
***All Averages are rounded to nearest 10)
2017-2023: 116-72 (.617)
2 (3???) NCAAT Appearances (Sweet 16, 1st Rd Loss, ???)
1 (2???) NIT Appearance(s) (2nd Rd Loss, ???)
Average Seasonal Record: (Appx: 19-12) (.613)
Overall ACC Record: 61-51 (.545)
Average ACC Record: Appx: 10-8
Average ACC Finish: Appx: 6th (out of 15)
NCAA Appearances : 50%, Maybe 60% or 40%
Postseason Apperances: 60%, Maybe 67% or 50%
Brownell’s Previous Six Years
2011-2017: 102-91 (.528)
Zero NCAAT Appearances
2 NIT Appearances (NIT Semi-Finals, 2nd Rd Loss)
Average Seasonal Record: Appx: 17-15 (.531)
Overall ACC Record: 47-59 (.443)
Average ACC Record: Appx: 8-10
+Average ACC Finish: Appx: 9th (out of 15)
NCAA Appearances: 0%
Postseason Appearances: 33%
Six Years Prior to Brownell’s Arrival (Purnell)
2004-2010 (131-70) (.652)
3 NCAAT Appearances (All 1st Rd Losses)
3 NIT Apperances (1st Rd Loss, 2nd Rd Loss, Tournament Runner-Up)
Average Seasonal Record: Appx: 22-12 (.647)
Overall ACC Record: 47-49 (.490)
Average ACC Record: 8-8 (.500)
++Average ACC Finish: Appx: 7th (out of 12)
NCAA Appearances: 50%
Postseason Appearances: 100%
+2011-2013 (ACC only had 12 teams, 15 after)
++2004-2005 (ACC only had 11 teams, 12 after)
Where Brownell 2017-2023 is MUCH better than Brownell 2011-2017: VASTLY SUPERIOR in all areas but NIT Appearances (does that even matter?)
Where is 2017-2023 Brownell MUCH worse than 2011-2017 Brownell: Nothing that matters
Where Brownell 2017-2023 is MUCH better than 2004-2010 Clemson basketball (Purnell): Nothing really, other than he has shown he actually can win in the NCAAT if he can actually even get there).
Where Brownell 2017-2023 is MUCH worse than 2004-2010 Clemson basketball: Overall NCAAT Appearances
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All-In [44054]
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Our program is clearly trending up the last 5-6 years
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Mar 5, 2023, 11:52 PM
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which is why the anti-Brownell crowd keeps repeating the same tired statements like “three NCAA Tournaments in 13 years.” They don’t want to talk about recent success, because it doesn’t fit their agenda.
It’s the same reason why the Dabo apologists avoid talking about the last few years of underachieving and instead revert to the last 10 years - because it doesn’t fit their argument.
Good luck trying to get these people to be objective or reasonable. They’ve made up their minds and nothing is going to change that.
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Letterman [284]
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Re: Our program is clearly trending up the last 5-6 years
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Mar 6, 2023, 12:03 AM
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first of all just stop with the DABO stuff keller.. If that was the case Duke or UNC would be winners b/c they get the talent every year. Clemson football just like duke and unc basketball are typically playing for ACC titles each year.
So let's do the break down shall we.. Just acc play
2022-23 14-6
2021-22 8-12
2020-21 10-6 (covid year)
2019-2020 9-11
2018-2019 9-9
2017-2018 11-7
2016-2017 6-12
So where in that does it say treading upwards? What it looks like to me is take one step forwards and two steps back each year in ACC play. I don't see football as you wanted to say doing that. I see a steady of down a tad and back to winning. This isn't close to that.
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CU Guru [1502]
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Re: Our program is clearly trending up the last 5-6 years
Mar 6, 2023, 12:11 AM
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first of all just stop with the DABO stuff keller.. If that was the case Duke or UNC would be winners b/c they get the talent every year. Clemson football just like duke and unc basketball are typically playing for ACC titles each year.
So let's do the break down shall we.. Just acc play
2022-23 14-6
2021-22 8-12
2020-21 10-6 (covid year)
2019-2020 9-11
2018-2019 9-9
2017-2018 11-7
2016-2017 6-12
So where in that does it say treading upwards? What it looks like to me is take one step forwards and two steps back each year in ACC play. I don't see football as you wanted to say doing that. I see a steady of down a tad and back to winning. This isn't close to that.
If you noticed my lengthy post, observe Brownell’s ACC record 2011-2017 verses his 2017-2023 record. His average finish is up three spots, and his win total is up 14 and win percentage is up from ,443 to .544. So, the Judge is very much correct.
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All-In [44054]
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You need to reread the original post in this thread.
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Mar 6, 2023, 12:12 AM
[ in reply to Re: Our program is clearly trending up the last 5-6 years ] |
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Overall record and conference record 2011-2017 compared to 2017-2023.
It’s a stark difference and shows the improvement in our program recently.
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Letterman [284]
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Re: You need to reread the original post in this thread.
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Mar 6, 2023, 12:41 AM
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No I had no problem reading the post. Do you want me to break down the level of comepetion of the first 10-13 games opponents that are like western carolina, north carolina A&T. Or should we praise CBB for winning those games?
Heck I'll break it all down geez... tell me the upward trend though please.
2011-12 16-15 8-8
2012-13 13-18 10-8
2013-14 23-13 8-8 (9 of those wins.. Stetson, Delaware state, south carolina, temple, davidson, coastal, sc state, furman, VMI)
2014-15 16-15 8-10
2015-16 17-14 10-8 (7 of those wins...North Carolina Central, UTSA, Texas Southern, Rutgers*, SC State, Wofford, Presbyterian)
2016-17 17-16 6-12
2017-18 25-10 11-7 (great year) (western carolina, nc A&t, ohio, hostra, texas southern, ohio state, unc asheville, samford, florida, usc, louisana,)
2018-19 20-14 9-9 ( citadel, north carolina central, same houston state, akron, Georgia, saint peters, radford, charleston southern, usc, lipscomb)
2019-20- 16-15 9-11 (Presbyterian, colgate, detroit mercy, alabama a&m, TCU Jacksonville)
2020-21 16-8 10-6 (great OOC) (covid) (Miss state, purdue, SC State, Maryland, Alabama, morehead state)
2021-22 17-16 8-12 (Presbyterian, wofford, bryant, temple, charleston southern, drake, miami (oh), usc,)
That's where your post doesn't give the full story... don't look at overall play look at ACC b/c Clemson plays a weak first 10-12 games every year that should be wins.. I didn't put the losses we had against inferior opponents those seasons. I had a math teacher one say there are liars, dang liars, and statistics. You are trying to pull the statistics of an upward projector y of not ACC games but overall games won.
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CU Guru [1502]
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Re: Our program is clearly trending up the last 5-6 years
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Mar 6, 2023, 12:07 AM
[ in reply to Our program is clearly trending up the last 5-6 years ] |
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I agree with you except about Dabo. I think there are reasons to explain the last three years, just as there are reasons to explain Brownell’s first 13. Although, between you and I, I think you give Dabo a hard time just to bust on the Brownell haters/ambivalent Clemson basketball “fans” around these parts. I don’t agree when you bust on Dabo, but I think I understand what motivates it. Even though I don’t always like what you post about football, I like you Judge, and I’ll tell you why. It takes a special kind of fan to be a Tiger basketball fan, so from one to another, I salute you.
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Legend [16058]
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He isn't a Clemson basketball fan...He is a Brownell fan
Mar 6, 2023, 2:56 PM
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Don't be confused by the two.
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CU Medallion [57157]
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I know, right? Those idiotic Dabo apologists giving him slack after
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Mar 6, 2023, 12:41 AM
[ in reply to Our program is clearly trending up the last 5-6 years ] |
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winning two National Titles in three years have got some nerve.
Brownell should certainly be allowed to rest on his laurels after his Championships too. Fair is fair.
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CU Guru [1487]
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He sure is getting a lot of run on that World Championship***
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Mar 6, 2023, 12:47 AM
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Legend [16953]
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Orange Blooded [4596]
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Re: Our program is clearly trending up the last 5-6 years
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Mar 6, 2023, 7:36 AM
[ in reply to Our program is clearly trending up the last 5-6 years ] |
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First, your use of the term "Dabo apologists"...does the irony burn?
Maybe some people are crazy about wanting CBB gone, but I feel like I've given him a fair chance, I supported the efforts and saw ever-so-slow improvement. I even made the "who would we hire that can do better" arguments.
I posted this, similar to the above, that included a "last 6 years" breakdown.
I give CBB credit for making some progress, but the inexcusable losses that keep piling up year after year and become, well, inexcusable to me. Dabo screwed up this year by being perhaps too loyal to his staff and QB. So I'm no "apologist" either. Two National Championships buys him some leeway, for a long while, with me. If Dabo starts dropping football games to the Citadel or Furman, I'm going to be right there saying maybe he's tapped out and we need new blood.
Despite CBB's "historic" year (with several asterisks) I still think we should give someone else a chance to run this program. I cannot envision a future where CBB wins an ACCT or gets to a Final Four. I could be wrong, but I think 13 years of chances is probably a sufficient body of work to make that judgement.
-------------- OLD POST -----------------------
Well, I've become convinced that it is almost certainly time to find someone who can help Clemson win more games, more consistently. And certainly if next years results are not better.
But there are significant positives for Brownell, nonetheless.
Here's one: first and only Clemson coach to ever win a game at Chapel Hill, breaking an 0-59 streak.
In the last 6 years, his teams have won several post-season games, including making an NCAA Sweet 16 appearance in 2018.
2017 ACC tournament, #12 seed, beat #13 NCSU, then lost to #5 Duke (Duke won tournament).
2018 ACC tournament, #4 seed (double-bye), beat #12 BC, then lost to #1 UVS (UVA won tournament)
2019 ACC tournament, #9 seed lost to #8 seed NCSU 59-58
2020 ACC tournament, #8 seed beat #9 Miami (Brownell became first Clemson coach to end the season with a win, as remaining ACC and NCAA & NIT games were canceled due to COVID)
2021 ACC tournament, #5 seed, lost to #13 Miami
2022 ACC tournament, #10 seed, beat #13 NCSU, then lost to #7 Va Tech (Va Tech won tournament)
2017 NIT #2 seed, first round loss to #7 seed Oakland
2018 NCAA #5 seed made Sweet 16 (beat #12 New Mexico State and #4 Auburn, lost to #1 Kansas [KSU final four])
2019 NIT #2 seed, won 1st round vs #7 Wright State, lost to #6 Witchita State
2020 no post season for anyone (COVID)
2021 NCAA #7 seed, lost to #10 seed Rutgers
2022 did not qualify
Brownell and Clemson represented the US in the 2019 World University games, went 6-0 and won the gold medal.
I cannot remember any disciplinary problems of any significance on Brownell teams. As far as I know, there's not been any allegations of NCAA violations on Brownell teams.
In years past, Clemson got run out of the gym on a regular basis, with 20 or even 30 point losses. I feel the poor record Brownell has in close games overlooks the fact that there are now more close games (but I have not done any analysis to that effect, it just seems that way). Yeah, we have some big losses, but they're not by 30 points anymore and I feel like the team is playing hard every minute of every game rather than giving up like they obviously did in the past.
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Legend [16919]
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Re: Our program is clearly trending up the last 5-6 years
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Mar 6, 2023, 9:19 AM
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Up from terrible to mediocre. Hooray.
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All-In [40100]
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Hot take: you are the least objective person on Tigernet.
Mar 6, 2023, 9:38 AM
[ in reply to Our program is clearly trending up the last 5-6 years ] |
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You are a Brownell apologist and while you may not mean to be, come across as anti-Dabo. Which I doubt that’s true you’re probably just stirring the pot. Point is, people care if we make it to the tournament. Our record this year is great, but it will be at the minimum tainted if we don’t make the dance. While you are the least objective person on Tigernet, you also have the least self-insight/self-reflection—at least on these matters. I hope you do better in your personal life.
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Hall of Famer [24582]
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Re: Our program is clearly trending up the last 5-6 years
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Mar 6, 2023, 1:05 PM
[ in reply to Our program is clearly trending up the last 5-6 years ] |
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which is why the anti-Brownell crowd keeps repeating the same tired statements like “three NCAA Tournaments in 13 years.” They don’t want to talk about recent success, because it doesn’t fit their agenda.
It’s the same reason why the Dabo apologists avoid talking about the last few years of underachieving and instead revert to the last 10 years - because it doesn’t fit their argument.
Good luck trying to get these people to be objective or reasonable. They’ve made up their minds and nothing is going to change that.
This is the problem I have with you..you can't talk great about Brownell without taking 'jealousy' shots at Dabo and the football program...
This is why most people can't stand you...
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CU Guru [1674]
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Re: Our program is clearly trending up the last 5-6 years
Mar 6, 2023, 2:44 PM
[ in reply to Our program is clearly trending up the last 5-6 years ] |
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Laid out in this format, it does show a positive trend for our BB team.
Regarding Dabo and the FB team: I think it’s fair to equate:
-Making a NY 6 bowl is like making the Sweet 16
-Making the CFP is like making the Elite 8 or possibly even the Final 4.
All of that is out the window when the CFP goes to 12 teams.
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All-In [46574]
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If our goal is to be competitive and get in the dance one
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Mar 6, 2023, 12:16 AM
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Time out of every 4 years then Brad is our awesome coach but if we are striving to improve to a new level of consistency then we need a coach with a new vision.
If I’m Neff I’m afraid to pull the trigger because if the new coach comes in and has a losing record for 3 years it looks bad on him at his new job.
Personally, I believe as long as Brad stays the same he’ll keep his job indefinitely. I always wanted to see us make a run at the final four and win a National Championship or at least have a good enough team to talk about it.
So many mid-majors are eating our lunch at recruiting and developing. I believe Clemson has an incredible fan base, nice facilities an it’s a great place to raise your family. We could find a better coach in my opinion but we need to be picky and find the right fit.
Until such time as we make a change I will support Brad 100%, I hope and pray his recruiting improves and transfers love coming to play for him.
If we had better talent Brad would look like a top coach. Imagine having the talent NC, Virginia & Duke have had the last 13 years for him to coach.
I do believe Brad has gotten better at coaching the last 3-4 years, if he could retain & development better recruits we could be in the dance yearly.
Could we hire a recruiting coordinator for him? Throw some NIL money out? I’m not in the position yet to pay all these kids to get our program in a new light. Nothing would make me happier than seeing us as a top 5-15 program every season with a shot at going to the final four & winning a few National Championships!
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CU Guru [1502]
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Re: If our goal is to be competitive and get in the dance one
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Mar 6, 2023, 12:27 AM
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Time out of every 4 years then Brad is our awesome coach but if we are striving to improve to a new level of consistency then we need a coach with a new vision.
If I’m Neff I’m afraid to pull the trigger because if the new coach comes in and has a losing record for 3 years it looks bad on him at his new job.
Personally, I believe as long as Brad stays the same he’ll keep his job indefinitely. I always wanted to see us make a run at the final four and win a National Championship or at least have a good enough team to talk about it.
So many mid-majors are eating our lunch at recruiting and developing. I believe Clemson has an incredible fan base, nice facilities an it’s a great place to raise your family. We could find a better coach in my opinion but we need to be picky and find the right fit.
Until such time as we make a change I will support Brad 100%, I hope and pray his recruiting improves and transfers love coming to play for him.
If we had better talent Brad would look like a top coach. Imagine having the talent NC, Virginia & Duke have had the last 13 years for him to coach.
I do believe Brad has gotten better at coaching the last 3-4 years, if he could retain & development better recruits we could be in the dance yearly.
Could we hire a recruiting coordinator for him? Throw some NIL money out? I’m not in the position yet to pay all these kids to get our program in a new light. Nothing would make me happier than seeing us as a top 5-15 program every season with a shot at going to the final four & winning a few National Championships!
I respect your post, but I think if the ACC continues to exist, and Clemson remains in it (I hope so) I think a consistent Top 25 team and somewhat steady Round of 32/Sweet 16 trips is a little more realistic. For example, I think what you hope to see for Clemson basketball would be akin to Wake Forest, Duke, or Virginia expecting that type of annual success in football. I think the history, as well as the ability to pull in top tier talent just isn’t quite there for those schools. However, they both have the ability to be a lot better than they have been in the last 30 years.
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CU Guru [1487]
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The big picture called
Mar 6, 2023, 1:02 AM
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This season may end up great, I don't know. That would be freaking awesome.
In the previous 12 seasons, however, we have an avg final NET of 76th. In those 12 seasons, we have two top 40 finishes. Brad is getting paid the 38th largest salary in America.
It hasn't added up.
It can be remedied this postseason. Personally think we need one maybe two more wins to get to the NCAAT. Gotta make it, or.....
Go Tigers!
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Orange Blooded [4596]
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Re: Brownell (2017-2023) vs Brownell (2011-2017) vs Purnell (2004-2010)
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Mar 6, 2023, 7:25 AM
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I appreciate the effort, but if you're going post numbers like that, you could at least look them up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Brownell
Clemson Tigers (Atlantic Coast Conference) (2010–present)
2010–11 Clemson 22–12 9–7 T–4th NCAA Division I Round of 64
2011–12 Clemson 16–15 8–8 7th
2012–13 Clemson 13–18 5–13 11th
2013–14 Clemson 23–13 10–8 6th NIT Semifinal
2014–15 Clemson 16–15 8–10 T–9th
2015–16 Clemson 17–14 10–8 T–7th
2016–17 Clemson 17–16 6–12 12th NIT First Round
2017–18 Clemson 25–10 11–7 T–3rd NCAA Division I Sweet 16
2018–19 Clemson 20–14 9–9 T–8th NIT Second Round
2019–20 Clemson 16–15 9–11 9th Postseason Cancelled
2020–21 Clemson 16–8 10–6 T–5th NCAA Division I Round of 64
2021–22 Clemson 17–16 8–12 10th
2022–23 Clemson 22–9 14–6 T–3rd
Clemson: 240–175 (.578) 117–117 (.500)
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CU Guru [1502]
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Re: Brownell (2017-2023) vs Brownell (2011-2017) vs Purnell (2004-2010)
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Mar 6, 2023, 8:17 AM
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I appreciate the effort, but if you're going post numbers like that, you could at least look them up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_BrownellClemson Tigers (Atlantic Coast Conference) (2010–present) 2010–11 Clemson 22–12 9–7 T–4th NCAA Division I Round of 64 2011–12 Clemson 16–15 8–8 7th 2012–13 Clemson 13–18 5–13 11th 2013–14 Clemson 23–13 10–8 6th NIT Semifinal 2014–15 Clemson 16–15 8–10 T–9th 2015–16 Clemson 17–14 10–8 T–7th 2016–17 Clemson 17–16 6–12 12th NIT First Round 2017–18 Clemson 25–10 11–7 T–3rd NCAA Division I Sweet 16 2018–19 Clemson 20–14 9–9 T–8th NIT Second Round 2019–20 Clemson 16–15 9–11 9th Postseason Cancelled 2020–21 Clemson 16–8 10–6 T–5th NCAA Division I Round of 64 2021–22 Clemson 17–16 8–12 10th 2022–23 Clemson 22–9 14–6 T–3rd Clemson: 240–175 (.578) 117–117 (.500)
Are you addressing me, sir?
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Orange Blooded [4596]
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Re: Brownell (2017-2023) vs Brownell (2011-2017) vs Purnell (2004-2010)
Mar 6, 2023, 9:18 AM
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Without trying to be harsh, yes. There's no need to guess at the record or NCAA games won/lost when the data is 2 seconds away on the internet. Plus, you could have saved yourself all that typing!
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CU Guru [1502]
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Re: Brownell (2017-2023) vs Brownell (2011-2017) vs Purnell (2004-2010)
Mar 6, 2023, 1:23 PM
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Without trying to be harsh, yes. There's no need to guess at the record or NCAA games won/lost when the data is 2 seconds away on the internet. Plus, you could have saved yourself all that typing!
What the crap are you talking about, fella? My numbers are not inaccurate. You assume I didn’t research it, but I did. I left out the 2010-2011 season because I referenced a previous post about the six years prior to Brownell’s new contract after the 2017-2018 season. You could have saved yourself from looking silly if you would have read my post, but you just assumed I flippantly compiled made up numbers. The only thing I did, that isn’t completely to the exact numbers, is when I rounded to the nearest ten so I didn’t have to put (ex. 19.2 average wins or 8.5 average finish, etc). Show me where my numbers are inaccurate. Go ahead. If I’m wrong, I’ll admit it. So, you don’t have to be “harsh” on yourself for being presumptuous. I forgive you in advance.
P.S. Add the 2010-2011 win loss totals to the win loss totals I posted. You’ll find that it adds to . . . wait for it . . . 240–175. The same numbers you posted. Read, sir. It helps.
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Orange Blooded [4596]
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Re: Brownell (2017-2023) vs Brownell (2011-2017) vs Purnell (2004-2010)
Mar 7, 2023, 3:02 PM
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I didn't say you were wrong. I said you could look them up. To fill in the blanks that you listed. It seemed like you had trouble counting or knowing what the number really were and you said so.
You: (My figures, might be off)
You: 2 (3???) NCAAT Appearances (Sweet 16, 1st Rd Loss, ???)
You: 1 (2???) NIT Appearance(s) (2nd Rd Loss, ???)
I mean, what else does ??? mean other than "I *think* this may be right, or it could be wrong." The only other thing I can interpret ??? to mean is MAYBE you meant "if COVID hadn't cancelled the 2019 season, we possibly could have gone to the NCAAT or the NIT"...which seems unlikely given the record we had that year. But maybe that's what you meant.
Overall, I your figures were right at 116-72 for the 2017-2023. I'm not sure why you're harping on the 2010-11 season. We had 2 NCAAT trips, with as you say a Sweet 16 and a 1st round loss) and 1 NIT appearance (2nd round loss).
If the ??? were supposed to mean "who knows what might have happened if 2019-20 was not canceled for COVID" meaning we might have potentially had another NIT or NCAA bid, that was not at all clear to me in your original post. It really seemed to me that you were saying "I'm not sure maybe we had 2 NIT bids or maybe we had 3 NCAA bids..."
Sorry if I didn't get that.
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