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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 10:26 AM
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I’m curious as to how the board feels about hiring a new basketball coach. Judging by other threads, it seems like 75% of the fan base wants to get rid of brownell.
Some of you have incredibly high standards for our basketball program which include
- being in the top 3 of the ACC on a regular basis. - competing for ACC championships nearly every year - going to the NCAA tournament every year and most of the time winning a couple games. (Apparently 2 in 4 years including a sweet 16 run is poor)
So with those standards, what are the chances that we hire a coach that can achieve those goals? You know, a coach that competes w/ Duke and UNC regularly. And if we do hire a coach that achieves those goals, what are the chances that he stays with us for the long haul (last 2 coaches with a little success bolted the minute they got another offer)
Thanks
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Associate AD [805]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 10:57 AM
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75%? The anti-Brownell crowd wishes it were that high!
Maybe 30%. Most Clemson BB fans are not only realists, but pragmatists.
But that's a really loud and obnoxious 30%.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 11:00 AM
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75%? The anti-Brownell crowd wishes it were that high!
Maybe 30%. Most Clemson BB fans are not only realists, but pragmatists.
But that's a really loud and obnoxious 30%.
I probably should have said 75% of fans on tiger net. You are right, the anti-brownell segment is just really loud and stupid which makes the number seem much higher.
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All-In [27344]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 11:17 AM
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A smart man once said “best is standard” I would hope that would apply throughout ALL of Clemson. Academically and Athletically. Through every sport. But I guess some people don’t like setting high standards....
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All-In [44054]
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Okay, with that being said
Apr 26, 2021, 3:59 PM
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how do you feel about our budget for our basketball assistant coaches being below the national average?
Is that budget allowing Brownell to get the best coaching staff to help with player development, recruiting, and game planning?
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All-In [27344]
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Re: Okay, with that being said
Apr 26, 2021, 7:44 PM
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That’s a very valid point. I feel the budget should reflect the standard leadership wants to set. If that’s the best than it should be top 10 budget in comparison to the rest. I have no knowledge of the BBall budget so I can’t speak to that. But I know the Head coach is paid very well. I also know a smart man once gave up some of his salary to compensate his assistants salary so he could get and keep a better staff. How do you feel about Brad doing that?
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All-In [44054]
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What makes you think Brad hasn’t done that?***
Apr 26, 2021, 8:52 PM
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All-In [46574]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 10:58 AM
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It’s a tough call but we would hire a new football coach or baseball coach if that dint make a field of 64 teams consistently, but we change our standards in Basketball & truth be told we invest less in Basketball too.
Luke warm & riding the fence makes it a tough call. We might hire a worse coach, that is the chance we take. Brad won’t be hurting either way if he’s halfway invested his money.
I love & support Clemson regardless of their choice, I’m thankful for the home run they made hiring Dabo. Terry Don knocked it OUT of the ball park.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 11:01 AM
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110% against it .. but my justification is only when the players are "giving up".
I am simple, 20 wins, above .500 in conference - cause a little havoc. No NCAA attention an build a rep for being a pucky, invested BB program. One has to be able to coach above the talent level on the court.
What I don't want is to be sub 5 wins (again) in conference and basically rely on beating 4-6 (of 8) BigSouth teams to reach 10 wins. New coach after every 4-5 years (see Wake/NC State)
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All-In [27344]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 11:18 AM
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It’s been 12 years....not 4-5
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 11:21 AM
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He and the team has shown marked improvement over the last 5. Why do you think what he did 12 years ago is relevant to the discussion now?
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Legend [16263]
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Who doesn't love the Brown L Box of Chocolates brand of
Apr 26, 2021, 11:53 AM
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basketball? You never know what you're gonna get. Year in, year out - same old story. Flashes of greatness meets debilitating no-shows. Personally I think the kids deserve a steadier hand at the top, but what do I know - just a lifelong fan, alum, and idiot confident that 'next year' will be different.
Go Tigers.
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All-In [44054]
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It matters as much as Dabo's losing season in 2010.
Apr 26, 2021, 4:03 PM
[ in reply to Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach ] |
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In other words, not at all at this point.
You and I both know that the people here who keep saying "he's been here 11 years" and similar stuff aren't truly interested in seeing our basketball program succeed. No, they just want to tear down the current staff by complaining and being negative.
If they were interested in improvement, they would be encouraged by the upward trend over the past few years as well as the season we just had.
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Legend [16058]
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Please don't mention Dabo and Brownell in the same sentence.
Apr 26, 2021, 7:44 PM
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There is ZERO comparison. We are talking about a Hall of Fame, multiple National Championship winning coach versus a scrub that has accomplished ZERO. If Brad Brownell is so great and underfunded here, why hasn't he been hired away by all these many programs that want GREAT coaches and are willing to fork out more money than us for facilities and coaches? Seriously - why does no other team want him? Easy question.
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All-In [44054]
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It’s really sweet how much it bothers you for Dabo and Brad to be mentioned in the same post.***
Apr 26, 2021, 9:22 PM
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All-In [27344]
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Re: It matters as much as Dabo's losing season in 2010.
Apr 26, 2021, 7:50 PM
[ in reply to It matters as much as Dabo's losing season in 2010. ] |
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Wrong. We would all love to see Clemson basketball succeed. So much so that when the program makes a tournament and blows big monkey balls and plays like they have lead shoes and been drinking margaritas pregame we fans get overly disappointed. And it stings a lot worse when you’re thinking this is the year finally and then suck. It’s just like comparing it to Tommy Bowden. For ten years straight we saw ups downs and then finally we had a freaking dictionary word for our constant failure to meet expectations. That is why fans are upset and want change.
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Legend [16058]
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Exactly...Like expectations and goals are bad.***
Apr 26, 2021, 8:27 PM
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110%er [6825]
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Re: It matters as much as Dabo's losing season in 2010.
Apr 27, 2021, 11:21 AM
[ in reply to Re: It matters as much as Dabo's losing season in 2010. ] |
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Tommy is a great example of why you are incorrect and why a lot of football folks don't get the basketball argument
Tommy Bowden had roughly the 2nd/3rd best facilities & resources in the conference. He often lost inexcusable games with better talent and then go dominated in big games. Although he finished 2nd in conference in 99/00, after the facilities were upgraded, he never made it to the ACCCG even with a floundering inconsistent FSU. He was picked to win the Atlantic and was a top 10 team preseason only to lose to wake.
BB has roughly a mid-level facilities bottom tier resources in the conference. He does NOT often lost inexcusable games with better talent and then goes and knocks off good teams big games. Although he finished in the top 1/3 in conference prior to the upgrades, after the facilities were upgraded, he HAD made it into the top 3. He was picked to finish 10th and finished *3rd* in my book (based on NCAA seeding evals of ACC dancing teams).
If BB had Tommy level resources then you complaints would be valid. If BB was at UofL or UNC you complaints are valid, but if Tommy was at Wake football winning 7-9 games a season and being up and down and oh-so-close, they would still have him around
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All-In [44054]
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You are hitting on a real lack of awareness
Apr 27, 2021, 1:45 PM
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among some posters here when it comes to college basketball.
They think Brownell gets paid too much, when in reality he doesn't get paid that much among power 5/ACC coaches. He significantly outperforms his salary when viewed in context.
They also seem to believe that the new facilities are magical, and put us among the best facilities in college basketball. That isn't even close to being true.
Moreover, my post last week about the basketball assistant coach budget being below the national average mostly fell on deaf ears. Rather than these posters recognizing that as an example of Clemson not supporting basketball like it should, they either ignored it completely or changed the discussion to complaining about Brad or criticizing him for not donating some of his salary to pay assistants better. As you mentioned, the comparisons to Tommy Bowden and the myth that we are "inconsistent" are about as ridiculous as one can get.
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Heisman Winner [140604]
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I'm pretty sure his pay is an issue...
Apr 27, 2021, 1:50 PM
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because you've gone out of your way to make it one.
I think sometimes you lump anyone who disagrees with you into the same category. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a rabid anti CBB/Clemson Basketball fan. It's not you against tnet. We are all friends here.
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All-In [44054]
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Complaints about Brownell getting paid "all that money"
Apr 27, 2021, 2:41 PM
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have littered the basketball board for quite a while. My post about assistant coach salaries didn't create the sentiment at all.
You are incorrect about how I view those who disagree with me. As I've said before, I don't have a problem with fans who want a different coach, and fully understand the sentiment that a change could be good. My issue is with those who have convinced themselves that we pay him too much when the data show that he greatly outperforms his salary.
It's unreasonable to whine and complain about our basketball program and say that we should be better, while being completely oblivious to the fact that we don't invest enough in our program to have such lofty expectations right now.
To clarify, I'm not arguing for mediocrity. I think we should have high standards and big goals. But we can't expect to reach lofty goals until we are willing to put in what it takes to get there.
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Legend [16058]
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People get paid more for outperforming.
Apr 27, 2021, 11:58 PM
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Brad isn't wanted by any other major school. NONE.
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Oculus Spirit [77015]
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Legend [16921]
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Re: You are hitting on a real lack of awareness
Apr 27, 2021, 2:24 PM
[ in reply to You are hitting on a real lack of awareness ] |
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How many coaches have kept a job for more than 10 years averaging $7 million salary per NCAA tournament. I’ll bet you the only ones are future hall of famers making that much or more per year. He is over paid based on results.
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Legend [16058]
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You realize you even type the same as your other profiles
Apr 27, 2021, 11:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: It matters as much as Dabo's losing season in 2010. ] |
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When you reply to yourself? Same wording and same rhetoric. You are seriously insane to need to create other profiles to agree with your own posts.
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110%er [8003]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 12:03 PM
[ in reply to Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach ] |
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It’s been 12 years....not 4-5
Seems you dont really follow basketball so i will provide you with the cliff notes. Prior to five years ago we had SoCon level facilities. Was not a problem for OP as he recruited athletes who wanted to play basketball. In essence OP was a gimmick coach. Worked well against overmatched teams but we got destroyed against good teams which is why he was not able to win a game in the tournament. CBB's system requires basketball players meaning guys who are skilled at basketball but those are wanted by everyone so given our poor history and geographic location we had to have a nice facility to show recruits we are serious about our basketball program. This is why we have improved over the last five years after the facility was in place. Let me know if you have questions.
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All-In [27344]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 7:52 PM
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We also had three very progressive and successful years on a row before we lost Purnell who had built a great program before he was vultured and he did it with socon level facilities and a whole lot less money. Plus UNC and Duke were still at the top consistently not at the end of their eras like in 2021 when they sucked
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All-In [44054]
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Since you seem to view Purnell and his tenure with such admiration
Apr 26, 2021, 9:12 PM
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why do you think he left Clemson for DePaul?
Why would you leave an ACC job where you had success and job security for what many considered a nearly impossible rebuilding job at the worst program in the Big East?
I know some people will say money, but why didn’t Clemson pay him well enough to keep him from considering other places? Why did he leave Clemson so quickly that he didn’t even give Clemson a chance to give him a raise?
And when we hired his replacement, why was Rick Stansbury our top choice? And why did he publicly humiliate us as he kept his job at Mississippi State? Why did we end up hiring what I’m told was our third or fourth choice? That’s hard to believe if we truly had such a great team and situation left behind by Purnell.
Maybe, just maybe Clemson basketball’s reputation as a really hard job with subpar support from the administration and fans is well deserved.
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All-TigerNet [11487]
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110%er [9735]
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I’m over it. I have finally decided to lower my expectations.
Apr 26, 2021, 11:14 AM
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Thanks for your encouragement.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: I’m over it. I have finally decided to lower my expectations.
Apr 26, 2021, 11:34 AM
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I understand. You have made your point over and over again but you refuse to answer any questions with any type of competence.
You don’t think brownell is a good coach. You want him fired.
What percentage chance do you think we could fire brownell and hire a coach that can perform better than brownell. So top 5 in the acc and 2 ncaa tourneys including a sweet 16 over the last 4 years.
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110%er [9735]
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I told you. I have decided to accept mediocrity.
Apr 26, 2021, 12:34 PM
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I’m happy now.
That seems to disappoint you.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: I told you. I have decided to accept mediocrity.
Apr 26, 2021, 1:16 PM
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Does not disappoint me one bit. Good for you. You seem happy. Still won’t answer the question
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110%er [9735]
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78%. There, I answered your question.
Apr 26, 2021, 1:37 PM
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But we’ll never know the actual answer, so I have moved on.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: 78%. There, I answered your question.
Apr 26, 2021, 1:41 PM
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Dang if I thought there was a 78% chance of us hiring a basketball coach that puts us in the same group as UNC and Duke, I would be all for it too.
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110%er [9735]
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Follow the science.***
Apr 26, 2021, 1:57 PM
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Legend [16058]
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All-In [27344]
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Re: I’m over it. I have finally decided to lower my expectations.
Apr 26, 2021, 7:57 PM
[ in reply to Re: I’m over it. I have finally decided to lower my expectations. ] |
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I think the chances of repeating that success with a new coach givin the same 12 years is probably somewhere around %100. I mean come on your hanging your hat on the last four years one of which was a year in which perennial powerhouses Duke AND UNC were way down. But it took 12 years for that result. I think there’s plenty of coaches that could replicate that AT Clemson with the new facilities given over a decade for results
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Orange Blooded [4464]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 11:14 AM
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Brownell seems to be going in positive direction for the moment we need to support him this year and observe the following: what does next recruiting class look like how well do we do in the 2021 season do we make the NCCA tournament How we’ll do we do in the ACC tournament If he fails on all those marks then 12 years is enough
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Team Captain [485]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 11:51 AM
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I can't speak for the entire board, but I do know that without assessing progress, no process improves by itself. Saying that "we are pragmatic" as an excuse to accept the annual disappointments from the basketball team makes no sense to me.
We are not running a rec league program with volunteer coaches. The coach is paid $2.5 million a year! Holding him accountable for the progress of the program only makes sense.
I acknowledge that I am not a basketball expert. I was never on a high school varsity team. However, the Clemson coach appears to be outcoached pretty often, especially in close games. Additionally, almost every game, CU will go into a scoring drought of 5 or more minutes.
I have read that Brownell is the winningest CU coach of all time, has almost the highest ACC winning percentage as a CU coach, etc. However, if a coach stays at a place long enough, he will eventually be the winningest coach. And the ACC winning percentage does not account for the strength of the league. The current ACC is nothing like the league in the 70's, 80's, and 90's.
I give BB credit for having very few player issues off the court and no NCAA compliance issues. To his detriment, he has a very high turnover rate with so many players transferring out (and in). Maybe the transfer situation is just part of the current culture, but the really good programs do not have 4 or more transfers each year.
Clemson basketball is in a rut. Brownell is in a rut and is unlikely to leave given his current salary and lack of results he can parlay into a better job. Making a change at the basketball head coaching job is best for Clemson and for Brownell.
To everyone that disagrees, I say simply that the above comments are my opinion. If you have a differing opinion, I respect your right to do so.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 12:01 PM
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“Really good programs do not have 4 or more transfers each year”
What year has brownell had “4 or more transfers”?
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All-In [44054]
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It's amazing how many people here voice strong opinions
Apr 26, 2021, 4:08 PM
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based on incorrect information.
It happens all the time.
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All-In [27344]
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Re: It's amazing how many people here voice strong opinions
Apr 26, 2021, 8:00 PM
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It’s also amazing how some people with direct knowledge of the program spin the facts to fit their narrative. But it’s cool. Mainstream media does it all the time
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CU Guru [1950]
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There were years when Brownell probably should have
Apr 26, 2021, 11:55 AM
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been fired. I think he probably would have been fired after last year had it not been for COVID derailing the end of the season. The Sweet 16 was nice, but we followed that with two mediocre seasons, and recruiting still hadn't really taken off.
Thankfully we got back on track this year (at least on the court), and it's likely Brownell has bought himself at least another two years.
I still don't think 3 NCAA Tournament appearances (and only 1 in which we've made it past the Round of 64) in 11 years is great, but there's really no argument for firing him after this year. Any season that ends in Clemson making the NCAA Tournament is a success.
As for what I think an acceptable level going forwards is, I'd say it's making the NCAA Tournament 3 out of 5 years, and, being in the top-6 of the ACC at least 3 times over a 5-year period.
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Hall of Famer [22393]
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A lot of fans have tuned out over the last 11 years.
Apr 26, 2021, 12:26 PM
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For whatever reason, many who used to love Clemson basketball and watch every game from start to finish, just don't care enough any longer to make a point of tuning into the games, much less watching from start to finish. I am one. I don't think the program has brought in a lot of new fans to replace them. It will be interesting to see what happens with attendance in the coming years.
I do think we can get better coaching, better players, better results, better revenues, better pay and an overall better program than we have now. I just don't expect those things with the current head coach.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: A lot of fans have tuned out over the last 11 years.
Apr 26, 2021, 12:28 PM
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Feel bad for you. I have had a ton of fun watching Clemson basketball over the last 4 years.
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Hall of Famer [22393]
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I feel badly for all of us that had been fans for 50+ years
Apr 11, 2022, 5:53 AM
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but have lost interest over the last 11. There are a lot of us, but I don't get the impression the current Administration really cares.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: I feel badly for all of us that had been fans for 50+ years
Apr 26, 2021, 1:57 PM
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If you have been a fan for 50 years, how are you NOT enjoying our most sustained level of consistent success? Horray, we are finally NOT the doormat. We have only had one losing season in what, 12+ years? I mean we used to post losing seasons regularly, not just in conference, even when playing the extended Big South schedule.
Do you want foster's 2-12 then 8-6, then 4-10, then 7-7 roller coaster. Ellis's "will they, wont the" relationship with the NCAA on the same foster roller coaster at 4-12. Barnes' 7-9 tease out back. Shyatt monument to the 8/9 game. OP's 16-0 run finishing on a 4-12 slide. Heck, what about Locke and prior when sub .500 was completely the norm.
At this point, if you been around for 50 years, you should already know the product. At this time, each game that BB wins, it must be like ruining the game. Basically because Brownell has not had that 4-12 conference run in the least 4 years, something must be done right?
I think folks have lost perspective. With the Brad/OP tenure, we are not the complete junk of the conference anymore. Sure, Ellis and Foster had some good season, they mixed in some complete stinkers too. Now we are a strong, consistent mid-ACC program which was about as big of a climb as you can get.
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Hall of Famer [22393]
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Every year, the "salespeople" come out to tell us how we
Apr 26, 2021, 2:20 PM
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should be more excited about the program, but the fact remains - The program is losing supporters who are finding other ways to spend their time.
People have lost or are losing interest. I don't see that changing any time soon.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Every year, the "salespeople" come out to tell us how we
Apr 26, 2021, 3:34 PM
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I disagree...
Attendance at the non-UNC/Duke games seems about the same to me. It has been about as flat as ever and considering we are not playing "local" rivals as much it is all about the same. Getting poeple to attend a game against Wake or State is easier than those against Pitt, Cuse or BC.
The difference is that football has been "decent". People have a lot more expense come December (and now Jan). Rather than taking a trip over to Nashville on Dec 27th, we have expenses in early Dec to Charlotte, and then to Miami, Texas, Cali, and Atlanta. I also have found BB games to be a bit more expensive...
Sure, we are not rushing to Littlejohn to get that relief from another 7-6 "Tommy season" disappointment and heck, to me more folks talk about basketball now than they ever have before. I mean, we have expectations of the NCAA... that was not the norm.
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Orange Blooded [4095]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 1:02 PM
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If the admin cared at all about basketball they would get a new coach because of ##### in the seats.
There is no excitement for the program and even when they win it isn't fun basketball.
$2.5 million is a LOT of money for what Clemson is receiving.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 1:40 PM
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I rather win. Give me 10-6 in conference any day. BB just does not make it easy for the casual observer which is basically most of Clemson's base it seems. Heck I expect them to rename the 3pt line the "field goal line" just to avoid confusion.
I remember how exciting it was in the OP days and have a 17-1 top 20 Clemson team host a top 5 UNC team in Littlejohn.
And get obliterated by 20+ points in a layup contest for UNC benchwarmers that you would have assumed that we were using only blind walkons at a community college for the less fortunate (USC). Did OP change his style, oh heck no. You just knew in those first 2 minutes that OP was toast. At least BB make you pay attention to the game to see if he pulls it out. Shyatt? Well he would only win 2 conference games but at least one would be against a #1 team. Barnes was entertaining but he was still 7-9 but lets be honest, even with Buckner, you still watched for Ricks antics more than anything else.
If the Admin worried about people in seats, they would not have removed seating and installed unused luxury seats for non-attending season pass holders. That has done as much damage as any product on the court.
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All-TigerNet [11487]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 1:56 PM
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I rather win. Give me 10-6 in conference any day. BB just does not make it easy for the casual observer which is basically most of Clemson's base it seems. Heck I expect them to rename the 3pt line the "field goal line" just to avoid confusion.
I remember how exciting it was in the OP days and have a 17-1 top 20 Clemson team host a top 5 UNC team in Littlejohn.
And get obliterated by 20+ points in a layup contest for UNC benchwarmers that you would have assumed that we were using only blind walkons at a community college for the less fortunate (USC). Did OP change his style, oh heck no. You just knew in those first 2 minutes that OP was toast. At least BB make you pay attention to the game to see if he pulls it out. Shyatt? Well he would only win 2 conference games but at least one would be against a #1 team. Barnes was entertaining but he was still 7-9 but lets be honest, even with Buckner, you still watched for Ricks antics more than anything else.
If the Admin worried about people in seats, they would not have removed seating and installed unused luxury seats for non-attending season pass holders. That has done as much damage as any product on the court.
in OP's last three years we never lost by 20 pts to UNC at home. we actually played them to three OT games oné year.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 1:59 PM
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UNC in 2007. I was there til the end, 77-55. They completely solved our press and we had NOTHING to answer for them.
Oh wait, even GT got the layup again.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 2:03 PM
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Correction 2006 And how about in CH in 2008. They scored over 90 on us and we lost by at least 20 if not 25. We did beat them in 2009... but they placed about second to last that year with Roy (who has a history of off years)
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 2:04 PM
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* I will get this right 2006-2007 uggg
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 3:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach ] |
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Yep and once he showed some sort of sustained success, he bolted for DePaul.
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All-In [44054]
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The fact that we lost our basketball coach to DePaul
Apr 26, 2021, 4:22 PM
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should have caused many Clemson fans to be disgusted. DePaul, a school that was a basement Big East team that had not had any notable basketball success in decades, was able to hire away (and offer a substantial raise to) our basketball coach who had made three straight NCAA Tournaments. And our coach didn't even give Clemson a chance to match the offer. He didn't even tell Clemson he was unhappy. He just left, in the middle of the night.
That should have caused any self-respecting Clemson basketball fan to be livid. It should have raised a lot of questions, and spurred a desire to improve our program's reputation.
I didn't see a lot of self-reflection at that time. But paradoxically, some of our fans who are seemingly okay being viewed as a lowly basketball program seem to have super high expectations for it. It doesn't make sense.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: The fact that we lost our basketball coach to DePaul
Apr 26, 2021, 4:54 PM
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My profound disappointment - as played out - was that Clemson did not hire a coach more matched to the plateau Purcell had elevated the programs. 3 straight NCAA tournaments collapsed into 3 in 12 years but we should be oh so grateful because, you know, things are really turning around with our 58th ranked recruiting class.
Irony is you constantly claiming that Purnell was terrible but insisting we should have been livid at his departure. DePaul’s offer was insane. He was guaranteed $15 million over 7 years. It made his per year guarantee equal to coaches in the top 10 according the a USA Today list of highest paid coaches in 2010. A lot of us did believe that Purnell had reached a ceiling. It was the perfect opportunity for Clemson to step up make another move up the ladder. If they thought Brownell was the guy they failed spectacularly.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: The fact that we lost our basketball coach to DePaul
Apr 26, 2021, 5:28 PM
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You don’t put anything in context. Purnell left us good players for 1 year. That’s it. And brownell did something that Purnell could not achieve at Clemson.... winan ncaa tourney game.
After that year, what Purnell left us was a bunch of mediocre players. If you remember, Purnell only had 1 commit that year in Marcus Thornton (who ended up not being great in college). When Purnell bolted for a better job, we had nobody. Our upper classmen were milton Jennings, Devin booker, Andre young, and tanner smith, catelin baciu, and Brian narcisse. We had 0 sophomores and 5 freshman.
And for some reason it’s on brownell that he didn’t win with that roster.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: The fact that we lost our basketball coach to DePaul
Apr 26, 2021, 6:12 PM
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He had Jennings, Booker, and Young going into his second season as coach. That certainly wasn’t a terrible nucleus to build around. And with a decade of hindsight it certainly deserves considering with Jennings would have done better under a different coach. Our recruiting classes in 2008 and 2009 were 30th and 15th respectively. 2010 was terrible and is obviously a common problem based on when most coaching changes happen and signing day. But 2011 was 40th despite signing 5. 2012 was 44th. 2013 was 78th. 2014 was 80th. That’s some trend line. And you can blame facilities all you want - but just a few years earlier we pulled a top 20 class the year after a top 30 class. And this coming year’s class is right back in the toilet despite supposedly finally having everything he needs. It’s comical at this point that you continue to defend this.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: The fact that we lost our basketball coach to DePaul
Apr 26, 2021, 7:01 PM
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I really don't like bashing our former players so this is going to be the last I post on this thread about former players.
Can't believe you are saying that it was a talented roster. Where would you rank that roster, compared to OP's last 3 years and Brownell's 1 year
2007-2008
Sr. - Cliff Hammonds, James Mays, Sam Perry, Jr. - KC Rivers, Raymond Sykes Soph. - Trevor Booker, David Potter Fresh. - Demontez Stitt, Terrence Oglesby, Jerai Grant
2008-2009
Sr. - KC Rivers, Raymond Sykes Jr. - Trevor Booker, David Potter Soph. - Stitt, TO, J. Grant, Fresh. - Catilin Baciu, Brian Narcisse, Tanner Smith, Andre Young
2009-2010
Sr. - Trevor Booker, David Potter Jr. - Jerai Grant, Demontez Stitt, TO Soph. - Catalin Baciu, Narcisse, Tanner Smith, Andre Young Fr. - Devin Booker, Donte Hill, Milton Jennings, Noel Johnson
2010-2011
Sr. - Stitt, Grant, TO Jr. - Tanner Smith, Baciu, Andre Young, Narcisse Soph. - Devin Booker, Milton Jennings Fresh. - 0
2011-2012
Sr. - Tanner Smith, Andre Young, Baciu, Narcisse Jr. - Milton Jennings, Devin Booker Soph. - 0 Fr. - TJ Sapp, Rod Hall, KJ McDaniels, Devin Coleman, Bernard Sullivan
Let me tell ya, that right there is a winning roster. If we still had OP he definitely would have brought us to the tournament.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: The fact that we lost our basketball coach to DePaul
Apr 26, 2021, 8:42 PM
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So, with so much room on the bench, why wasn’t Brownell able to put together even a respectable class. It took him almost a decade to put together a class nearly as good as Purnell’s last two classes? And yes, had he recruited strong in 2011 he could have kept momentum going. He took over a program on much better footing than Barnes or Purnell. Everyone loves to change the subject or deflect but Barnes first team was projected by ACC media as THE WORST ACC TEAM IN HISTORY. He then sold an us against the world mentality, backed it up on the court, and demonstrated that Clemson fans will absolutely rally behind basketball. Brownell wins way more ACC games than Barnes did but has generated a fraction of the excitement. Why is that?
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110%er [6825]
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Re: The fact that we lost our basketball coach to DePaul
Apr 27, 2021, 9:56 AM
[ in reply to Re: The fact that we lost our basketball coach to DePaul ] |
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Stitt, Grant, Young were a good combo. After the 2010 season, it was just Young. Tanner always needed the D to be more worried about someone else to produce points.
If anyone says Jennings was an attribute, then they weren't watching basketball. He dad a horrible inside %, could not cover the arc against any stretch, and was easily taken apart by any decent cutter. He would literally need 11 possessions at the rim to make 10 points and that is horrifically bad under the rim. Devon took slightly fewer shots and average nearly a full point more per game. For comparison, Trevor took about as many shot (in 08) than Jennings (10). If you gave Jennings 10 shots, you would have 9 points. Give Trevor 10 Shots and you would have 15point.
Devon was not like his brother - a veteran NBA talent. OP road that horse of all of his worth. Put an athletic big-man with Cliff/KC and a shooter, you are good to go. Remove that option and you are in trouble. Devin was serviceable but was not the offensive threat that could cause a defense to collapse leaving the arc open.
Our best player in 2011 was the 5-9 Young. Our 3pt game was 12th in conference and Smith only shot 35% from the ARC. Our Defensive capabilities were a liability. True, we would get steals, we could not play a half-court game to save our life. Thus we feasted on teams with weak PG play and then got obliterated by any decent veteran PG.
Baciu and Narcisse were good potential roll/off the bench players but they had zero offensive capabilities so combined with a stunted Devon, any defense would just sit on both Tanner and Young and you would effectively make Clemson a 0 producer team.
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All-In [44054]
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If you will recall, Clemson’s top choice was Rick Stansbury.
Apr 26, 2021, 9:21 PM
[ in reply to Re: The fact that we lost our basketball coach to DePaul ] |
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He had made two NCAA Tournaments the previous five years at Mississippi State and had supposedly taken the job at Clemson, only to do a public about face and stay at MSU.
Brownell was supposedly our third or fourth option.
If Purnell left things in such great shape, and Clemson is such a wonderful place to coach basketball, why did we lose Purnell to DePaul, why did Stansbury not come, and why did we have to go down our preference list to make a hire?
The answers will inform you and others why it’s ludicrous to expect a head coach who is the 60th highest paid nationally and 10th highest paid in the ACC, with an assistant coach salary budget below the national average, to compete for ACC titles and make deep NCAA Tournament runs.
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Heisman Winner [140604]
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Excuse...
Apr 26, 2021, 9:23 PM
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ex·cuse verb /ik?skyo?oz/ 1. attempt to lessen the blame attaching to (a fault or offense); seek to defend or justify.
No need to make them.
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All-In [44054]
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Facts versus excuses.
Apr 26, 2021, 9:30 PM
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No need to confuse them.
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Heisman Winner [140604]
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This isn't the first time you’ve argued with a dictionary.
Apr 26, 2021, 9:32 PM
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Entertaining.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: If you will recall, Clemson’s top choice was Rick Stansbury.
Apr 26, 2021, 9:34 PM
[ in reply to If you will recall, Clemson’s top choice was Rick Stansbury. ] |
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So now you admit that Brownell was not a great pick - out 3rd or 4th option. But now, under a new AD in an unprecedented era of athletic success we should stick with Brownell because reasons? Stick to a narrative.
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All-In [44054]
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Please read more carefully. I didn’t say Brownell was a bad pick.
Apr 26, 2021, 10:29 PM
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I said that he was reportedly Clemson’s third or fourth choice. That has nothing to do with my own opinion of him, but since you brought it up, I think he’s much better than Stansbury.
The point of my previous post is that Clemson should’ve been able to get the coach it wanted if it were on stable footing and truly viewed as a good place to coach basketball when Purnell was here.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: Please read more carefully. I didn’t say Brownell was a bad pick.
Apr 26, 2021, 11:23 PM
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Yes, because coaches lack free will and personalities and simply go the highest available place within the coaching hierarchy. I read just fine. You just can’t decide what your point is - other than you can handle the thought of going without Brownell as our coach.
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1st Rounder [645]
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Re: If you will recall, Clemson’s top choice was Rick Stansbury.
Apr 27, 2021, 3:25 PM
[ in reply to If you will recall, Clemson’s top choice was Rick Stansbury. ] |
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Judge, since you’re convinced we are on an upward trajectory what is your prediction for next year? Where will we finish in the ACC? How many games will we win in the NCAA tournament? What will our ACC and overall record be? Let’s get it on the record since you’re clearly smarter than most of us.
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All-In [44054]
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I would like to wait until we are finished assembling our roster before I make any predictions.***
Apr 27, 2021, 10:37 PM
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Legend [16058]
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LMAO...Losing record coming under this garbage coaching***
Apr 27, 2021, 11:56 PM
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: LMAO...Losing record coming under this garbage coaching***
Apr 28, 2021, 8:08 AM
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Put your money where your mouth is, you weak minded turd.
Let’s see if you actually believe what you claim.
I’ll bet you $500 that we don’t ha w a losing record next year.
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Legend [16058]
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Orange Blooded [4559]
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Re: The fact that we lost our basketball coach to DePaul
Apr 27, 2021, 2:13 PM
[ in reply to Re: The fact that we lost our basketball coach to DePaul ] |
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I agree wholeheartedly. The mistake TDP made was going out and getting “The Anti-OP” in Brownell. The contrast in coaching styles couldn’t be more different. At the time OP left the program was on solid ground, coming off consecutive NCAA tournament appearances. The sensible thing to do would’ve been to hire someone with a track record of running a similar scheme OP had that could tweak it just a little to have more success in the tournament.
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All-In [44054]
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Or perhaps TDP realized that OP's scheme wasn't built for
Apr 28, 2021, 11:22 AM
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postseason success. It was great for turning around programs, but not getting them to the next level and making deeper runs in the tournament.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 4:10 PM
[ in reply to Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach ] |
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We literally lost 3 straight games by a combined 72 points THIS SEASON (two of which were unranked opponents) and you probably actually believe that vomitous word salad you just spewed on this board. I truly hope your username is a metaphor.
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All-In [44054]
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The fact that you think $2.5 million is a lot
Apr 26, 2021, 4:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach ] |
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to pay a power 5 basketball coach in this day and age speaks volumes.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: The fact that you think $2.5 million is a lot
Apr 26, 2021, 4:15 PM
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It is way above his market value. Curious there hasn’t been a peep from AD or Brownell about basketball going forward. You and your social marketing team seem to be out here on a limb. Even South Carolina did the obligatory non-escalated extension. Clemson can’t be bothered or Brownell not willing to sign without more cash?
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All-In [44054]
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I read here recently that Brownell ranks about 60th
Apr 26, 2021, 4:26 PM
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in salary. I also read that he ranks about 10th in the ACC in salary.
How exactly is that above his market value?
Based on his average finish, nationally and in the ACC, we are getting a great deal by only paying him that much - especially when you consider that we are paying his assistants less than the national average.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: I read here recently that Brownell ranks about 60th
Apr 26, 2021, 4:44 PM
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Because he won’t land a job at a major school if/when this miserable experiment ever comes to an end. He’ll be at non-P5 school and not one that makes the NCAA tourney on the regular. That neither Clemson nor Brownell are willing to invest anything in each other right now should tell even you exactly how this is going to end.
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110%er [9735]
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Legend [16921]
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Re: I think we should set up a GoFundMe for the poor fella.
Apr 26, 2021, 8:44 PM
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I think we need to gofundme cognitive evaluations for his defenders before they hurt themselves or others.
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110%er [9735]
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I’ll toss in a few bucks.***
1
Apr 26, 2021, 10:23 PM
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Heisman Winner [140604]
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Re: Round up our regular season ranking...
Apr 28, 2021, 3:37 PM
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We have shown Clemson will pay for great performance in their sports programs. Dabo sacrificed & made sure his assistants were paid well with his own money before he made big money because he believed in them & his ability to coach them to higher level.
It has paid off for him as our Board has paid him as his performance has risen & we would do likewise in other sports too especially our second most profitable sport.
I’m like the rest of you, I want what’s best for the future of the program in all areas. Nothing would make all of us happier than seeing our coaches rise among their peers in record & reputation, nobody wants to lose their coach to other schools when they are producing value to the school.
Go Tigers!
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Orange Blooded [2420]
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Re: I read here recently that Brownell ranks about 60th
Apr 28, 2021, 3:09 PM
[ in reply to I read here recently that Brownell ranks about 60th ] |
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I’ll tell you what. Fire coach B and let the 3 assistants hire one more assistant and pay the all 500000 and let each of them be assistant head coaches.
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All-In [44054]
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That would probably work for our football team
Apr 28, 2021, 3:20 PM
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but not our basketball team.
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110%er [6982]
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Re: Hiring a new B-Ball coach
Apr 26, 2021, 6:11 PM
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I think you meant to say “2 in 11 years”
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