Fordtunate Son - Religious pron response

Feb 22, 2022, 11:59 PM

I took a little time to give my thoughts on your questions. By no means are this completely thorough and leave no questions, I'm certain. But, here you go...

The story of the Garden of Eden is great. So, so many ways to interpret it. Even taking it as allegory, the details are fascinating. At some point I plan on a post for it. Among the questions for me are:

1) God created the garden and put man in it. So where was man actually created?
ANS: In the Garden. God formed man from the clay and breathed life into his nostrils. This step is highlighted because God did not breath life into the animal kingdom, only in mankind.
And was the garden originally for man, or for some other purpose? Was man put there as a reward, as a punishment, or just because? I don't have any answers, just questions.

ANS: The Garden was meant for all that were created, with man having dominion over the earth (garden). Life is a gift. Consequences of our choices will sometimes make it seem as though it is a punishment, however.

2)Gen 2:15 says man still had to work the garden. But that was also his punishment for getting kicked out. How is working the garden before different than after?

ANS: After [man] was kicked out of the Garden of Eden (the fall of man), then he had to toil with the land which now suffered the curse of sin as well – thorns and thistles are now added to the mix.

3) God says you are free to eat of any tree in the garden except Good and Evil. But there are two trees of note there. He doesn't place the same restriction on the Tree of Immortality. Yet he is later worried that man might eat from it, though he doesn't forbid, or stop him, except to kick him out for eating from the first tree. Why?

ANS: Combined with #4

4) He also says if you eat from the Tree of Good and Evil you will die. But man doesn't, at least not immediately. Traditionally, Adam lived 930 years. That's a long time, even for the Patriarchs. Even Methuselah only got to 969. And as a tie in to that question, was Adam going to die all along, since he didn't eat from the Tree of Immortality?

ANS: The temptation was to “be like God” which could be accomplished by knowing good and evil. Personally, I think immortality was not an issue because, again, what was death anyway? It had not yet been experienced. Side Note here: I personally believe man was in the Garden of Eden for many years before the fall. Adam certainly could not have named all of the animal and bird kingdom in a day. But what did Adam really think having knowledge of good and evil would be like… I mean Eve? As, of course, it was Eve that fell to the temptation. Adam chose to participate (as I mentioned earlier post) for the sake of companionship. Now, having that knowledge, this is when they were removed from the presence of the Tree of Life. This is where God really begins to deal with God’s holiness and that sin cannot have “life” to live freely forever.

5) It seems that God decided that man was lonely. Adam never said so. God just gave him a companion, but why? And why of a different sex? And why not a pet? I mean, it seems silly, but I always ask, "why this, and not something else?" God could have made him not lonely, even if he was lonely. Why not go that route. Why not give him a buddy, instead of a wife? In other religions, that happens. The protagonist in the story gets a buddy, not a woman.

ANS: A companion was given so that life could be shared and be multiplied. It was good in the eyes of God for man to have a companion. I feel certain Adam displayed his loneliness in ways that spoke more loudly than just saying to God, “Hey, a little companionship for me too would be good. Don’t you think?”

6) Why does Adam get to name the animals? Not to be flippant, but who cares, really? What purpose does it serve to name the animals? It's just odd to me that that detail is included in the story. I’m sure there is was a reason, I just don't know what it could be.

ANS: Everything in Scripture teaches something. This seemingly unimportant piece of scripture could be the thing that points to how long man was in the Garden. This is something that could help bridge some of the divide between science and scripture over the age of the earth. (Speculation on my part)

7) Then God says this: "But for Adam no suitable helper was found." What does that mean? Did he have multiple choices that he turned down? Who were the unsuitable helpers? Wouldn't God know what Adam would find suitable? What was Adam looking for? A blonde? A redhead? In the Jewish and Mesopotamian traditions Adam got Lilith before Eve. But she was booted out of the Garden, by herself, for disobeying Adam, not for disobeying God. Was her episode edited out? And why? Some editor decided along the way not to include Lilith. Why?

ANS: A suitable helper of the same kind. …just for fun, by your Lilith example, it seems women have always been trouble. Lol BTW, why not speculate that when God made man and women that He created “them” with multi ethnic backgrounds?

8)Then there's the whole rib thing. What is with that? Why not a finger, or a toe, or just create her from the earth like he did man? Or just from nothing at all? In the next verse it's used in the context of marriage, perhaps to say that your wife should be as close to you as your own flesh. But Adam and Eve weren't married. Not least least as far as we know.

ANS: some questions are just not worth the trouble to spend time with. I will say this though, it is the first clear indication of structure in the male/female order for mankind. Man does have “head of the house” designation whether our social class elites wish to acknowledge that or not. This is also why it is important to understand that Adam “eating of the fruit” is what caused the fall of man – God made him responsible. Eve was responsible to Adam, but Adam was responsible to God. (this should stir something among this crowd)

9) Then there's the whole serpent thing. Who did nothing more than tell the truth. "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Why would God withhold the truth from Adam and Eve? Deception is not normally considered a desirable trait. Why can't Adam and Eve know what they learn, except that they will have the same wisdom as God? And if that wisdom is to be so guarded, why put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden at all?

ANS: The serpent did not tell the truth. It is a half-truth at best. That God knows the horrible consequence of certain actions, and says to the creation He loves, “don’t do this or else” does not indicate God withholding truth – it represents God withholding the pain of a terrible consequence He prefers we not experience. Just as any parent protects their child (ones who are worth their salt), so God can act to protect us even though we don’t think it is fair at the time. And some still think it isn’t fair afterward wither. “Let us suffer if we choose to!” Now, that moves us into salvation through Jesus ( and Jesus alone). But, that is entirely a whole weeks’ worth of writing!

10) Then the whole confrontation episode. If God is omniscient he knows exactly what they did. So why question them? Why the ruse? And why is nakedness, of all things, something to be ashamed of? That's how God made them in the first place, with no clothes. Why is that now a problem?

ANS: Oh, what a time of revelation this was for Adam AND Eve. God did know. In fact, Jesus is called “the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world” for a reason. The question, “Where are you?” is not meant to be taken that God does not know. It is, however, meant to “uncover” for Adam and Eve the broken relationship and guilt they share for their disobedience. More of a “I know why you are hiding but do you?” kind of question. The first thing the knowledge of good and evil brought them was guilt and shame over who they had become – not who they [were], but who they had become. Now, if people would only open their eyes to who they [are] with relation to God….

11) Then Eve lies. "The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate." The serpent didn't deceive her at all. He told her exactly what would happen. He said nothing but the truth as far as I can tell.

ANS: Temptation is always filled with deception. Temptation is not sin, however, but it is enticement to sin. Usually, for people today, it sounds like this, “Who will know if you don’t tell?”

“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

ANS: Did that knowledge stop death from coming or did it usher it in?

And so God curses the serpent for telling the truth? God has to know the serpent is telling the truth. And he has to know Eve is lying. And he punishes them anyway.

ANS: Really? Blaming God?

12) Then comes Gods wrath and his curses, including for the woman "Your desire will be for your husband." How is that a curse? Where else would her desire be before she was punished? Very confounding. It's only at that point that God makes them clothes. Why not give them clothes to start with?

ANS Part I: Oh, I like this one. This should really stir the pot. I hope I can condense it enough and be understandable at the same time. 1) Genesis 3:16b “God said, Your desire shall be for your husband. AND he shall rule over you.” You MUST include that last sentence because God is not speaking to Eve about sexual relations with her husband. He IS talking about her desire to rule over her husband. To be possessive in a controlling manner. The last sentence brings that into context. 2) There is another verse that can bind that truth to your understanding – Genesis 4:7. God is speaking to Cain about sin. He says the same exact thing to Cain about sin as He did to Eve about her desire for her husband. But let’s see the context: “If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. [And its desire is for you], but you should rule over it.” The same phrase with the same context – except here God gives the instruction that one should be aware and rule over sin when it tempts them. With Eve, God did not give the choice for her to have [dominion] over her husband.

ANS Part II: God did cloth them. He clothed them with a lambskin. You see, something did die because of Adam’s sin. Something innocent. It was not something that God breathed life into when it was created, like man. But it was sacrificed to provide for that part of creation that God did breathe life into. It was sacrificed to provide them with the proper clothing they would need for the new “world” they were about to enter into. This, I hope everyone sees, is the first action that points to Jesus and His sacrifice to properly clothe us in forgiveness of sin.

13) And then the whopper: “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” Why? Again, why even have the trees in the garden, and who is this "us"?

ANS: Again, this really begins to deal with God’s holiness and that sin cannot have “life” to live freely forever.

There is so much packed into those two chapters you could read and write about them forever. Just a complete treasure trove of concepts, ideas, and implications. They're not alone in the realm of creation stories, but it's the details in them, and the implications those details lead to when you follow them through, that is just fantastic.

RESPONSE: It is a wonderful revelation of God and His relationship with creation. Yes, it is.

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John 3:16; 14:1-6

Thanks for your very comprehensive response, Hunt. It takes a lot of courage to put your personal beliefs on the firing line and I’m sure you probably will stir a pot or two around here, so you might want to brace yourself

But you’ve made this what I hoped it would become...a discussion of ideas. I’ve been providing the historical context of ideas, and I’m glad that folks like you are providing the contemporary context. That takes guts.

I doubt anyone is going to have the arrogance to step up and say “Well, God (if there is one) presented himself this way to me, and that’s the only way he presents himself.” But, I have been wrong many times, so who knows. There’s a lot of arrogance going around these days.

As I have said before, who’s to say that God is not concealing himself from even the most hardened atheist, for some reason we are not privy to. And so when an atheist says “there is no God”, for them, in their heart of hearts, and for all they know, there isn’t. By design. Or maybe there really is nothing. I’m not kidding when I say have no answers, only a voracious curiosity and a fascination with human thought. I won’t know anything till I know everything.

I’ll come back to Garden later on when we get to Judaism, and for both the creation story in Genesis 1 and the story in Genesis 2, and their reconciliation in the Midrash Genesis Rabba. It’s the greatest story ever told for a number of religions, Yahwism, Judaism, and Christianity just to name a few.

Fordtunate Son - Religious pron response

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