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Hall of Famer [21579]
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Abortion/Christianity question......
Aug 25, 2020, 2:26 PM
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Does an aborted fetus/baby's soul go to heaven?
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All-In [27403]
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We don't know for sure. "Folk theology" says yes due to
Aug 25, 2020, 2:30 PM
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some "age of accountability" thing, but that isn't found in the Bible.
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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So using that theology....
Aug 25, 2020, 2:33 PM
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Why would Christians have a problem with abortion?
If the baby is born, now their soul has a chance that it may spend eternity in hell instead of heaven.
Why risk it?
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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because we care about the aborter...
Aug 25, 2020, 2:51 PM
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both their spiritual condition and the emotional toll that most women carry the rest of their lives for having aborted their baby.
Secondly, the fetus never had a choice.
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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Its my belief that we don't choose how we enter this world
Aug 25, 2020, 3:03 PM
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so we won't choose what happens after we exit.
but...
1. That's only because its been made to make them feel bad about it. If society said it was ok then there wouldn't be much of that.
2. See my above response.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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so you believe the guilt...
Aug 25, 2020, 3:09 PM
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is only outward inflicted.
I'm pro-choice. Choose to be responsible on the front end so we don't have to punish an unborn fetus.
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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I think it can be both.***
Aug 25, 2020, 3:33 PM
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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I agree***
Aug 25, 2020, 4:03 PM
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Lot o points [155984]
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That's a great idea....we could make them an event.
Aug 25, 2020, 8:50 PM
[ in reply to Its my belief that we don't choose how we enter this world ] |
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Like a big birthday bash or bat mitzvah. Loud techno music, a big surprise party from your friends when you leave the exam room, confetti, hors d'oeuvres. We just need society to embrace the concept more and this could be how.
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Legend [15216]
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If anyone says they have an answer to that question...
Aug 25, 2020, 2:32 PM
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I think they're really reaching.
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All-In [26968]
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There's not hard Scripture...
Aug 25, 2020, 2:34 PM
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That says it in a very specific way. But David said, when he lost his infant child, "he shall not come to me, but I shall go to him," implying that the child was in heaven. And it stands to reason, and is in line with what we know of God, that He wouldn't cast into hell one who cannot mentally comprehend sin and its consequences.
The belief that the unborn child has a soul as a born child does can be demonstrated from several places that talk of God's forming and care for the child in the womb. Also, John the Baptist was notably filled with the Spirit prior to being born.
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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So then why are you not ok with abortion....
Aug 25, 2020, 2:35 PM
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Why risk the soul getting understanding of sin and then possibly going to hell?
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All-In [26968]
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Because God is.
Aug 25, 2020, 2:36 PM
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"Thou shalt not kill".
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All-In [26968]
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*is against***
Aug 25, 2020, 2:36 PM
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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But you could repent of that sin and then allow those souls
Aug 25, 2020, 2:39 PM
[ in reply to Because God is. ] |
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to just go on to heaven.
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All-In [26968]
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Checking out now. Obviously not a serious
Aug 25, 2020, 2:39 PM
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Biblical discussion.
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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Sort of....
Aug 25, 2020, 2:44 PM
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Why is the risk of having the "human experience" more important that spending eternity in heaven?
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CU Medallion [58455]
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The better question is, why, as an all powerful, all
Aug 25, 2020, 4:00 PM
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loving God, would you unnecessarily create a situation in which a soul could spend eternity in ####?
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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If you're given clear instructions to pour...
Aug 25, 2020, 4:09 PM
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the acid into the water slowly and you dump the water in the acid all at once do you accuse the instructor? Does blaming him replace the skin on your face? Is it he who bears the scars?
Just asking.
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CU Medallion [58455]
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What are you talking about, and what does that have to do
Aug 25, 2020, 4:28 PM
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with my question? Why would an all-powerful, all-loving God set up (or allow) a situation whereby some people would suffer unimaginably for eternity? To what end?
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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Re: What are you talking about, and what does that have to do
Aug 25, 2020, 4:47 PM
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Would you believe any explanation?
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CU Medallion [58455]
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No, but what is your explanation?***
Aug 25, 2020, 5:01 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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Re: No, I have an explanation which satisfies me.
Aug 25, 2020, 5:05 PM
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I do not care if it satisfies anyone else and there is no point in my wasting my time on someone who already has their mind set? Again, just asking.
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CU Medallion [58455]
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Sounds like your mind is set, and that's fine.
Aug 25, 2020, 5:18 PM
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I just thought this thread was a conversation in which we were giving our opinions and discussing the topic, but maybe I'm wasting my time if that's not the case. I'm open to being wrong or changing my mind with if I hear a convincing argument.
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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Re: Sounds like your mind is set, and that's fine.
Aug 26, 2020, 10:56 AM
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I apologize for pushing you so hard to see if you really sought answers. It is clear that I should have trusted your question rather than questioning your motive. For that, I am truly sorry.
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All-In [34114]
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Re: Because God is.
Aug 25, 2020, 4:47 PM
[ in reply to Because God is. ] |
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Very serious question, Prod (and to anyone who feels similarly): Is "Because God is" really your only reason for being against abortion? By which I mean: Don't you have personal feelings about it other than a religious conviction?
Reason for my question: Given the importance of the issue to you, and to many people, it seems highly unlikely that the motivation is simply that the Bible says so (when the Bible is chock full of things you are and aren't supposed to do) and not from a strong personal feeling about it.
To clarify further: Adultery, not keeping the Sabbath holy, and having other gods before Yahweh, are all legal in all 50 states. The Biblical rules against those things are far clearer than any command against abortion. And yet...
So my question is: Where's the motivation coming from on the abortion issue? Your answer "Because God is" cannot possibly be the whole story.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Re: Because God is.
Aug 25, 2020, 7:38 PM
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I think it’s murder.
You cannot make a reasonable argument that you are stopping a heartbeat and call it anything but murder.
I think this is our generation’s slavery. We will all be ashamed one day.
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All-In [34114]
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Re: Because God is.
Aug 25, 2020, 8:42 PM
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That's helpful, but let's clarify.
You have to mean it's a human heartbeat, since we stop nonhuman animal heartbeats something like 50 billion times a year, and we don't think it's murder.
So, if that's what you mean, is the human heartbeat really the key for you? I ask because a zygote doesn't have a heartbeat and an embryo doesn't have one for several weeks.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Re: Because God is.
Aug 25, 2020, 8:48 PM
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That’s all fine. I may be missing something, but I haven’t heard of anyone having an abortion before you have confirmed a pregnancy... that’s not confirmed by an ept test- it’s Confirmed by a heartbeat.
Go on though... human heartbeats
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All-In [34114]
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Re: Because God is.
Aug 25, 2020, 8:56 PM
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OK, that's really interesting and I hadn't considered that definition before. There are definitely abortions in the first several weeks, including the morning after pill which may stop implantation, and I guess those can continue without being murder under this view.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Re: Because God is.
Aug 25, 2020, 9:01 PM
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If there hasn’t been implantation- there is no heartbeat and thus not an abortion.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Also killing an animal is not murder
Aug 25, 2020, 8:54 PM
[ in reply to Re: Because God is. ] |
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And just to thwart dumb responses. It’s either called animal cruelty (bad) or hunting (good).
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All-In [34114]
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Re: Also killing an animal is not murder
Aug 25, 2020, 8:58 PM
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A little closed-minded of you to write off potential disagreement as "dumb responses." Killing an animal might be as bad as murder depending on your point of view. But it's a different topic obviously.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Re: Also killing an animal is not murder
Aug 25, 2020, 9:05 PM
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Define it.
Are we talking killing dogs in dog fights?
Killing deer for meat?
Killing a cow in a slaughterhouse?
Killing a raccoon that is nesting in your roof?
Killing a mole that is tearing up your yard?
Killing a squirrel that is in the road too long and your foot happened to push the gas pedal too hard?
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All-In [34114]
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Re: Also killing an animal is not murder
Aug 25, 2020, 9:22 PM
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As I said, it depends on your point of view.
My point of view is easy, because I don't think murder is a meaningful term outside the legal definition. As of right now, you can't murder a nonhuman animal or a human embryo. That's not saying whether it's right or wrong--just whether it's defined as murder.
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Legend [15216]
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Probably the same reason you wouldn't slit the throat of
Aug 25, 2020, 2:37 PM
[ in reply to So then why are you not ok with abortion.... ] |
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your 1 year old child.
I don't think it's a Christian idea as much as a morally decent idea.
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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The moral thing would be to allow the soul to go straight to
Aug 25, 2020, 2:38 PM
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heaven to eternity without risk.
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All-In [26968]
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Are you saying you are for killing a 1-year old?***
Aug 25, 2020, 2:39 PM
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Legend [15216]
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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Sort of....but if the mother wants to abort the fetus....
Aug 25, 2020, 2:42 PM
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then what's the problem? That soul gets to go straight to heaven without risk of spending an eternity in h3ll.
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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How's that not a good thing?***
Aug 25, 2020, 2:43 PM
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Thou shalt not kill
Aug 25, 2020, 9:17 PM
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Seems to get in the way of sending anyone without original sin straight to heaven.
Even outside the religious realm- are you honestly trying to be a proponent of killing kids?
My read is that you feel like you found a loophole somewhere... you’re wrong.
Abortion is murder Murder is wrong
It’s that simple.
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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Re: There's not hard Scripture...
Aug 26, 2020, 8:50 AM
[ in reply to There's not hard Scripture... ] |
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Isa 40 vs 10. Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
11. He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.
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All-In [34114]
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Not hard Scripture. You're reading a lot into that.
Aug 26, 2020, 9:58 AM
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That part of the book of Isaiah has a very specific context and it's not laying down general rules, and what you quoted isn't a rule at all.
By contrast: "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is what a rule looks like, and it's one of the Big Ten and no one tries to elect Supreme Court Justices to outlaw adultery.
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Heisman Winner [111736]
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Re: Abortion/Christianity question......
Aug 25, 2020, 2:37 PM
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there is a nursery full of young, nubile lactating women that walk around topless and rotate shifts. When they say heaven, it really is.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Abortion/Christianity question......
Aug 25, 2020, 2:44 PM
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The baby is in heaven. The abortion was a good thing all the way around.
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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Exactly....
Aug 25, 2020, 2:45 PM
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They avoid their potential "h3ll on earth" and eternity of h3ll.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Exactly....
Aug 25, 2020, 2:49 PM
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It's common sense. If you don't want your baby give them a good home in heaven.
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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We could limit such extreme poverty too....while those
Aug 25, 2020, 2:55 PM
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souls get to go enjoy heaven with Jesus. Its called mercy.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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yes***
Aug 25, 2020, 2:44 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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I don 't usually comment on oxymorons.
Aug 25, 2020, 4:04 PM
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I usually just laugh but there nothing funny about murder even if you call the victim a non human either because they are black, injun or unborn.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: I don 't usually comment on oxymorons.
Aug 25, 2020, 4:06 PM
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Even if someone did them a favor and they went straight to heaven? That's what he is asking.
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All-In [34486]
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Re: I don 't usually comment on oxymorons.
Aug 25, 2020, 4:12 PM
[ in reply to I don 't usually comment on oxymorons. ] |
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I don 't usually comment on oxymorons.
Hey, hey. No need for name calling.
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Oculus Spirit [93703]
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Re: I don 't usually comment on oxymorons.
Aug 25, 2020, 4:14 PM
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I tend to lash out a bit when I'm triggered.
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CU Medallion [58455]
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You'll get a lot of opinions here.
Aug 25, 2020, 4:34 PM
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My belief is that souls are eternal and all go to be with God when the earthly life is stripped away. That probably doesn't fit in with most Christian's beliefs.
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All-TigerNet [11211]
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I kinda feel the same way.
Aug 25, 2020, 4:52 PM
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And danged if we didn't agree on something!
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CU Medallion [58455]
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I think the earth just tilted off of it's axis.
Aug 25, 2020, 5:03 PM
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">
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Hall of Famer [21579]
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I agree as well....
Aug 26, 2020, 10:04 AM
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whatever that looks like....hard to define.
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Replies: 57
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