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All-In [42196]
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The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 9:37 AM
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When I look at problems we have in America right now with divisiveness and stability, and then at who has been in the White House the past 30 years, I see a bi-partisan effort of failure on the part of five administrations.
We can debate Reagan's policies all day, but it's hard to argue that he didn't bring us out of some dark times. He helped with unity and cooperation in both government and the public. Reagan was a president America needed at the time, which is somewhat starting to mirror today.
I don't put much fault on Bush Sr. It's not that I think he was a good president, nor do I trust him (it's hard to trust anyone in that family). But I think our problems started under the Clinton admin.
Here we go:
1. Clinton - I dunno, there was just something a little too smug and in your face about the Clintons that wasn't good for America. Granted, I will strongly agree with the argument that from the fall of the Soviet Union to 9/11, that was America's true golden decade, and most of that was occupied by the Clintons. But some bad policy decisions, two pointless military operations, and the rise of right-wing media to stoke the fires started us down this road.
When the BJ scandal hit, maybe it shouldn't have been as big of a deal as it was. But that was when I believe we truly saw America start to fracture and take sides.
2. Bush - No matter your opinion on the 2000 election, it didn't help our situation. I was willing to give the Bush admin a lot of leniency in the first year; I voted for Bush over Gore. 9/11 accelerated our problems like a shot of steroids. I'm not sure how well any admin could have handled the aftermath, but no doubt America lost a lot of innocence that day and going forward. The Bush admin, now in hindsight, handled it extremely poorly (along with Congress) from government overreach in the name of security (which they likely never meant it for security) and two costly, losing wars.
The divisiveness over the Iraq war was maybe the nastiest I've seen in America, even more so than anything with the Trump admin.
3. Obama - He came in with all that promise of hope and change and fixing the Bush admin #### ups, but he really just continued much of the same policy problems, divisiveness, military endeavors, and in some cases, made them worse. On top of it, he brought back some of that Clintonesque elitism and smugness to office, which probably contributed to pushing some voters to Trump. Many of his policies fell flat, and Obamacare's execution was pretty #### poor, IMO, but certainly well done at dividing us.
Moreso, Obama showed incredible weakness in handling the Syria and Ukraine incidents. He managed to just #### off Russia rather than scare them back. This was the beginning of Russia and China losing fear over the U.S., IMO.
So really, no change... at least not for the better. And definitely no hope.
4. Trump - Trump was the product of the previous three failures, but not the solution we needed. Anyone who still thinks he was good for America is a fool. He threw gasoline on an already bad fire. Any good policy he created was wiped out by poor spending plans, an attack on our democracy, wanton corruption/nepotism/cronyism, and an intentional--that's right, intentional--effort to divide our nation. He was populist demagoguery, and one that sang fascism loud and clear. We were fractured going into Trump; we were shattered leaving it. We still deal with people who thought he was good for America and don't recognize the problems, mainly because the conditions of the first three admins helped create a section of the population that would rather sacrifice our current system for an authoritarian strong man.
5. Biden - Sadly, most of America was smart enough to know Trump had to go, but this was the only choice available. It was like having to take on an old, sickly dog that ##### and pees all over the floor just to keep out a venomous snake. I don't need to outline this admin; I think we all agree the Biden admin has been a failure thus far.
So basically, three bad presidencies led us to a disaster, and now we had to put in a very weak admin to get rid of it.
These are just random musings I had today. What we need, IMO, is another Reagan, and I don't care which party he/she is in. Someone who can make us all come to together and rally around and get us out of some dark times. I still feel optimistic for America, but I don't feel great about future presidents. It doesn't seem we can attract great ones anymore or get them through the primaries.
Message was edited by: Catahoula®
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Lot o points [155944]
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On the first two.......
Oct 21, 2021, 9:41 AM
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I can't fault Clinton as much. I think the division of power (executive Dem and Legislative Pub) worked and effective compromise between the two was the rule of the day and marked the last time that we've actually seen it.
As for Bush, a lot of focus gets put on Iraq (rightfully so), but as it pertains where we are today--fractured---I put more blame on the 2000 election, and how Gore handled the whole hanging chad debacle. It started us down the road we are now on where every single election is marred by claims of fraud.
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All-In [42196]
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Re: On the first two.......
Oct 21, 2021, 9:44 AM
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Yeah, I don't think the 2000 election gets as much attention as it should for fracturing us as a people. We were already in lukewarm shape after the BJ scandal, and a lot of Americans unjustly lost trust in the system. I, too, believe Bush won fairly.
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All-In [34113]
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Re: On the first two.......
Oct 21, 2021, 9:50 AM
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I believe Bush won fairly as well. Gore could have asked for a statewide recount, which by the way may have won the presidency for Gore. But he didn't. He asked to recount the places where his chances of increasing his numbers were best. That's a BS move. Meanwhile, Bush's brother was governor and the decisions made by Sec. of State Harris were clearly intended to crown Bush the winner. So there was a lot of things for people on both sides to be angry about, and they sure were. I know some of you were here in Tnet with me when all that was going on. (We didn't even have the P&R Board yet, so we fought in Le Lunge... which is why there's a P&R Board now.)
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Legend [16259]
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Re: On the first two.......
Oct 21, 2021, 2:15 PM
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Lots of bad optics and decisions for Florida on both sides in 2000 for sure. Katherine Harris' move to scare off tens of thousands of likely Dem voters by threats of potential arrest over voter registration questions due to past criminal histories was a decisive play. Dirty, but old school fair dirty, like it oughta be.
Ultimately, Gore not winning his home state of Tennessee in that election made the final results of 2000 completely justified in my view.
Still disappointed with SC for tilting the nomination to Bush over McCain, though. Would have voted for McCain in the general but could not allow myself to help put the Carlisle Group and Haliburton in power. Talk about some other dirty tricks in that SC primary - wow.
Message was edited by: wildblulou®
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All-In [47844]
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Don't think I really disagree with much or any of this
Oct 21, 2021, 9:48 AM
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I 100% agree on #1. I didn't like Clinton at all at the time he was POTUS. Couldn't quite put my finger on it, but looking back I think it was exactly as you described. I actually like him a lot more now that when he was in office. I said many, many times when Obama was Pres that I wouldn't mind having Clinton back in there. And it was the beginning of where we are now.
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All-In [31907]
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What's staggering is how the political sides have...
Oct 22, 2021, 4:02 PM
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shifted in a relatively short period. Clinton was considered a liberal at the time and he would be viewed as a moderate conservative now on almost all issues.
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CU Medallion [60043]
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The divisiveness over the Iraq war was maybe the nastiest I'
Oct 21, 2021, 9:55 AM
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the Senate voting like 80/20 didn't signal divisiveness, neither did 300/130 type of vote in the house. I think bad intel, and our lack to move quickly on Syria started us down the back tracking road.
No one really wanted to take the heat for voting to authorize and thus we started finger pointing.
That's not why we are where we are now, but a factor.
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All-In [42196]
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It wasn't divided in the Senate
Oct 21, 2021, 10:02 AM
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But certainly was for America. Especially the anger from the pseudo-patriots who insinuated people hated America if they didn't support the war.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Honestly, blame-wise, the pseudo-Patriots are
Oct 21, 2021, 10:07 AM
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In the same barrel as the “try Bush for war crimes” crowd, as far as I’m concerned.
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CU Guru [1315]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 10:16 AM
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Cat Man: For once, the voice of reason, followed by fair and balanced commentary! Congrats. Would you accept a Pulitzer for shooting straight and nailing it! Good Job, my friend!!!
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Heisman Winner [119729]
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Re/ Trump, my queshons are
Oct 21, 2021, 10:34 AM
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1) Is you opinion of his Presidency based on being primarily against his policies?
OR
2) Is it mostly because he was an azzhat and a womanizer?
He was trying for the most part to get us out of the Middle East, which Dems generally favored. But he strongly supported Israel, which Dems are mixed about. He tried to level the economic playing field with China which I think most supported. What else tilted your position?
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CU Guru [1315]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 11:02 AM
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Hey Cat, UK Tiger ain't gonna like your analysis of Dem presidents one bit. Get ready for a counter attack and his usual condescension! He's a sensitive democrat Ex-Pat!
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Head Coach [790]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 3:27 PM
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Nope i think he has a spot on assessment. Not sure i would claim Biden is a failure thus far, but that's in the noise overall with his note.
I would add one thing ... The one thing Reagan unleashed was the Religious Right and the rise of Newt Gingrich and an attack on the long term holdings of Congress by the Dems. We forget that for decades, the dems largely had control of the House and Senate. During the 1980s, Reagan, and the GOP went to change this through a lot of grass roots organization.
This was incredibly successful and still is felt today. The GOP absolutely destroys the dems on the state and local level, which has paved the way for House and Senate success. Obama was the first to address this and we are seeing the Dems going this route now, but it'll take years to come to fruition.
However, what the Reagan/Gingrich years unleashed was this toxic messaging that you can't trust government or government officials. This messaging though was taken to the Nth degree by the right and normalized with Sarah Palin and the tea party. From there it was a downward spiral to Trump.
I am not saying government solves all problems. However, to have this borderline aggressive fear of any government isn't healthy. You need government and you need government programs. That's a simple fact. We can debate how far and how deep they go (and we do) but to have a position that all government is bad is just lunacy.
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Heisman Winner [111630]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 11:12 AM
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IDK, I think that the guy who convinced 2/3rds of America that government is the problem, not the solution, a dangerous swan song that is still sung to this day, did irreparable damage to our republic. But I also understand that these were not his ideas, he had them shoved down his throat much the way he shoved them down ours.
Herbert Walker was the last honorable president we had despite his willy Horton nonsense, he had some integrity. Everyone else has sucked since agreed.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 11:57 AM
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IDK, I think that the guy who convinced 2/3rds of America that government is the problem, not the solution, a dangerous swan song that is still sung to this day, did irreparable damage to our republic. But I also understand that these were not his ideas, he had them shoved down his throat much the way he shoved them down ours.
Herbert Walker was the last honorable president we had despite his willy Horton nonsense, he had some integrity. Everyone else has sucked since agreed.
So you think more government is the solution to many problems? Which ones wokk you do those be?
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Heisman Winner [111630]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 1:41 PM
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no, I am saying that it did little good to undermine confidence in the institutions that are supposed to serve us, it has become doctrine since, and now poses a danger to this country.
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All-TigerNet [12592]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 2:49 PM
[ in reply to Re: The failure of the last five presidencies ] |
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Bush 41 was one of the most qualified candidates for the office of President ever. He wasn’t flashy, but he was competent and was decent.
World leaders respected him.
We could use another boring, competent and decent person at the helm.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 11:59 AM
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I agree with a lot of what you said, but it's hard to take anything you say about Trump seriously. You hate him so much, you are unable to speak about him rationally.
Trump had his faults, but he did a lot of really good things despite the corrupt dems and media working against him every second he was president.
You believed EVERY single hoax about Trump (and still do) and you have no problem with the leftist media because they helped get someone you hate out of office.
You call Trump a fascist, but don't say anything about Biden and the dems signing record numbers of executive orders, passing bills that monitor every $600 dollar transactions, controlling the flow of news and media. You call trump a fascist because he said, "the mainstream media is the enemy of the people", but you don't care when the dems actually control the flow of information in the US. Biden and the dems are fascists without the nationalism.
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All-In [31514]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 12:04 PM
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Trump bootlicker arrives to explain why Daddy was the best
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All-In [42196]
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Funny that...
Oct 21, 2021, 12:37 PM
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He's part of the problem I describe. People like him helped contribute to the Trump problem and still believe he was a good solution to our problems when he actually made em worse.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Funny that...
Oct 21, 2021, 12:48 PM
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He's part of the problem I describe. People like him helped contribute to the Trump problem and still believe he was a good solution to our problems when he actually made em worse.
Which problems did Trump make worse?
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All-In [42196]
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Re-read my OP.
Oct 21, 2021, 1:18 PM
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Again, anyone who thinks Trump was a good president and the solution to our problems is a fool.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 12:46 PM
[ in reply to Re: The failure of the last five presidencies ] |
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Trump bootlicker arrives to explain why Daddy was the best
Dumbarse shows up and makes assumptions about my loyalties to trump. Idiot. Anybody that doesn't bash Trump constantly is a boot locker. Even if they lead with, "trump had his faults"
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All-In [31514]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 12:55 PM
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So sensitive
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 1:05 PM
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So sensitive
Wow, people like you are the worst. You come out swinging, I swing back, and then you call me sensitive.
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All-In [31514]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 1:07 PM
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Try not to get your feelings too hurt on the internet there buddy
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 1:12 PM
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Lol. Nobody's feelings are hurt unless they are yours. To recap
I posted a respond to catahoula
Charleston tiger: you are a trump boot locker and he is your daddy
Me: your a dumbarse that is making assumptions about my loyalties to trump
Charleston tiger: geeeeez so sensitive. Your feelings are hurt.
Are you really this stupid?
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All-In [31514]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 1:16 PM
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Ok buddy, sorry I didn’t follow your retarded internet argument rules. Have a great day
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Orange Blooded [4020]
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All-In [42196]
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All-In [42196]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 12:32 PM
[ in reply to Re: The failure of the last five presidencies ] |
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I despise him because he's evil and wanted to tear down American democracy for his own personal gain. Any American who lauds him for those efforts is suspect.
And no, I didn't believe every claim about Trump, and "hoax" is a false word to describe most of the issues. You're gullible to right wing media.
Quit getting butthurt any time I address Trump and actually focus on the point of my post.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 1:02 PM
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I despise him because he's evil and wanted to tear down American democracy for his own personal gain. Any American who lauds him for those efforts is suspect.
And no, I didn't believe every claim about Trump, and "hoax" is a false word to describe most of the issues. You're gullible to right wing media.
Quit getting butthurt any time I address Trump and actually focus on the point of my post.
I remember just a few weeks ago you repeated the lie that Trump teargassed peaceful protesters for a photo op. It's comical how brainwashed you are.
Also do you remember how wrong you were about the hunter Biden lap top story? It's funny, you believe every BS story perpetuated by the left, but are always skeptical on all "right wing" news stories. But you call yourself some sort of independent that shoots it right down the middle.
You're perception of trump is completely molded by how the left wing media outlets portrayed him. Again, he's not the model for good ethics but your obsession with him is pathetic.
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All-In [42196]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 1:20 PM
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You just spout off stuff and don't remember anything people actually said, olemike.
-Link the post where I said Trump personally teargassed someone.
-What was I wrong about on the lap top story? Give me a direct quote.
If you can't do either, you simply admit you're making stuff up.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 1:27 PM
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This is why you're ridiculous. You can't even admit when you are wrong and then you try to play word games.
Trump did not personally teargas somebody. I'm assuming you are meaning trump didn't actually throw/shoot the teargas? You said that the trump admin ordered peaceful protesters to be tear gassed so he could have a photo op at the church.
You also said that anybody that believed the lap top was genuine was an idiot. Just because I'm not going to spend time searching through all your posts don't make them untrue. You know this
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All-In [42196]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 2:19 PM
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-Atty Gen. Bill Barr directly gave the order for police to remove the protestors however they could to clear a path for Trump.
-Show me the direct quote where I said that. You can't. Thus, you admit you're a liar.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 2:55 PM
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You gaslight so much it's insane. Per your post history, you have either posted or recommended a post close to 50 times in the last 24 hours. This was months ago. I'm not going to spend my time looking for a post that I know you made to prove a psychopath wrong
Also, maybe get a life. It's not healthy to be in front of a screen so much
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All-In [42196]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 3:33 PM
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Per your post history, you have either posted or recommended a post close to 50 times in the last 24 hours.
W T F is that even supposed to mean in this discussion?
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 3:15 PM
[ in reply to Re: The failure of the last five presidencies ] |
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-Atty Gen. Bill Barr directly gave the order for police to remove the protestors however they could to clear a path for Trump.
-Show me the direct quote where I said that. You can't. Thus, you admit you're a liar.
Luckily, I looked at my post history. I don't post 50 times/day because I'm not a nerd like you, so it's much easier to find.
The thread was entitled, "January 6 question". While you were busy being dramatic about what happened on 1/6 you said the following...
Catahoula: There's a difference Between police tear gassing or beating peaceful protesters (and yes, I'm talking about the peaceful ones, not the ### clowns looting stores or burning buildings) and a mob storming the Capitol during ballot counting to try to stop the legal process.
Me: Please provide examples of peaceful protesters being tear gassed.
Catahoula (in your typical douchy smug ways): White House for Trump's photo op. Thanks for playing.
so again, for the slow (catahoula) You said that police tear gassed peaceful protesters so they could make way for "Trump's photo op". Now try and play your dumba$$ word games because I know it's coming. "You said in your post that TRUMP teargassed the protesters. I never said that trump personally shot the tear gas canister at the protesters"
Here is what really happened:
"Protests began in and around Lafayette Park on May 29, 2020. On May 30, the USPP [U.S. Park Police] and U.S. Secret Service established a unified command to coordinate the law enforcement response to the protests. From May 30 to 31, at least 49 USPP officers were injured while policing the protests, and Federal and private property was vandalized.
On the morning of June 1, the Secret Service procured antiscale fencing to establish a more secure perimeter around Lafayette Park that was to be delivered and installed that same day. The USPP, in coordination with the Secret Service, determined that it was necessary to clear protesters from the area in and around the park to enable the contractor’s employees to safely install the fence. The USPP planned to implement the operation as soon as the fencing materials and sufficient law enforcement officers arrived at the park. Six other law enforcement agencies assisted the USPP and the Secret Service in the operation to clear and secure areas near the park.
The operation began at 6:23 p.m. and was completed by 6:50 p.m. Shortly thereafter, at 7:01 p.m., President Trump walked from the White House through Lafayette Park to St. John’s Church. At 7:30 p.m., the contractor began assembling and installing the antiscale fence and completed the work by approximately 12:30 a.m. on June 2.
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All-In [42196]
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Uh, no.
Oct 21, 2021, 3:34 PM
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Bill Barr ordered it. Again... thanks for playing.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Uh, no.
Oct 21, 2021, 4:14 PM
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Bill Barr ordered it. Again... thanks for playing.
Ok. So what you believe is that bill barr ordered the capital police to tear gas peaceful protesters so that Trump could have a photo op?
Because that's not what happened.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Uh, no.
Oct 22, 2021, 3:51 PM
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Bill Barr ordered it. Again... thanks for playing. Ok. So what you believe is that bill barr ordered the capital police to tear gas peaceful protesters so that Trump could have a photo op? Because that's not what happened.
Once again, when you get proved wrong you just vanish and don't respond. What a bozo.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9886
Joined: 1/23/06
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The common theme in this to me is the media’s
Oct 21, 2021, 12:05 PM
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Rise to power.
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All-In [46825]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30733
Joined: 8/11/15
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1995 and Newt Gingrich***
Oct 21, 2021, 1:32 PM
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Lot o points [155944]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 65832
Joined: 5/6/13
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That was awful when they balanced the budget.***
Oct 21, 2021, 2:20 PM
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All-In [31907]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37199
Joined: 11/22/03
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Not to mention the HOR following through on a specific...
Oct 22, 2021, 4:00 PM
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list of major items that they ran on as a party and followed through on bringing to a vote.
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110%er [6692]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 6139
Joined: 10/6/21
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Re: The failure of the last five presidencies
Oct 21, 2021, 2:21 PM
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Bush and the Iraq War blinder makes all of other Presidents' mistakes look like spilled milk.
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Hall of Famer [21940]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8600
Joined: 9/11/11
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I'm a simpleton
Oct 21, 2021, 3:06 PM
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It's always about the money.
Clinton - repealed Glass-Steagall
Bush - Patriot Act, bailouts
Obama - QE, MMT, bailouts
Trump - QE, Covid Stimmy directly to citizens
Xiden - more stimmy directly to citizens, trying to pass over $4.5T in spending we don't need
All the while, the media became more powerful, the Fed became more powerful, and the corporatocracy/oligarchy boomed.
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Orange Blooded [4020]
TigerPulse: 68%
Posts: 8047
Joined: 12/9/01
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Re: I'm a simpleton
Oct 21, 2021, 5:23 PM
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We need to elect a "business man" who understands this to fix this.
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Hall of Famer [21940]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8600
Joined: 9/11/11
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I know this is bait
Oct 22, 2021, 10:57 AM
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and I'll probably regret responding...but I disagree with you.
I disagree in a lot of modern business practices taught in B schools these days. It's part of the key pillars of the status quo that has gotten us here. Financialization, too big to fail, margin margin margin, shareholder value, etc. etc. etc. A modern business grad/mindset will leverage central bank practices and the Street to inflate top line revenues, return value to shareholders, while limiting costs (on a macro scale...wages).
We need an old school thought of economics, IMO, similar to the Henry Ford model. I'm a big fan of Fordism. Unfortunately, that train of thought is about as dead as the concept of working with a fellow American to come to actual solutions.
An excerpt from Ford's book that's stuck with me: "The people are naturally conservative. They are more conservative than the financiers. Those who believe that the people are so easily led that they would permit the printing presses to run off money like milk tickets do not understand them. It is the innate conservation of the people that has kept our money good in spite of the fantastic tricks which financiers play-and which they cover up with high technical terms. The people are on the side of sound money. They are so unalterably on the side of sound money that it is a serious question how they would regard the system under which they live, if they once knew what the initiate can do with it."
Luckily, the vast majority of Americans have zero clue how our financial system works, nor do they care b/c they're too busy slinging mud at one another (which you're a champion of) over #### that doesn't matter.
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Lot o points [155944]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 5/6/13
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In 1930, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives,
Oct 21, 2021, 8:01 PM
[ in reply to I'm a simpleton ] |
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in an effort to alleviate the effects of the... Anyone? Anyone?... the Great Depression, passed the... Anyone? Anyone? The tariff bill? The Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act? Which, anyone? Raised or lowered?... raised tariffs, in an effort to collect more revenue for the federal government. Did it work? Anyone? Anyone know the effects? It did not work, and the United States sank deeper into the Great Depression. Today we have a similar debate over this. Anyone know what this is? Class? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone seen this before? The Laffer Curve. Anyone know what this says? It says that at this point on the revenue curve, you will get exactly the same amount of revenue as at this point. This is very controversial. Does anyone know what Vice President Bush called this in 1980? Anyone? Something-d-o-o economics. "Voodoo" economics.
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All-In [31907]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 37199
Joined: 11/22/03
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Interesting thought experiment....what if Colin Powell....
Oct 22, 2021, 4:09 PM
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would have run against Obama in 2008 and won.
Imagine what the GOP would look like now and the possible difference in race relations...not to mention the general tone of politics.
I don't think we get Trump without Obama. I think Iraq and Afghanistan could have either gone differently or shorter in duration.
Syria likely handled in a much different fashion. Same with Iran. Same with Russia and China.
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