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All-In [40100]
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Judge Keller you told me before the season that
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:35 PM
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If we didn’t make it to the NCAAT this year, you’d be ready to move on from Brad. What say you now?
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Legend [16908]
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Re: Judge Keller you told me before the season that
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:37 PM
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He says we were robbed so that invalidates his prior obligation.
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All-TigerNet [13513]
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Re: Judge Keller you told me before the season that
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:37 PM
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Wait, let me get my popcorn...
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110%er [6952]
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Re: Judge Keller you told me before the season that
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:39 PM
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Does Judge Keller really seem like the kind of person to be a man of his word?
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CU Medallion [73569]
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He's here but chicken to respond***
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Mar 12, 2023, 10:07 PM
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Orange Blooded [4059]
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Bump***
Mar 12, 2023, 10:33 PM
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All-In [44050]
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Sure, I’m fine getting a new coach if it means Clemson’s administration
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Mar 12, 2023, 10:48 PM
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and fans are ready to go “all in” on basketball.
If it means that we are prepared to spend more on our program and support it better as fans, and get a coach who is a proven winner - ideally at the high major level, sign me up.
But if we are going to take the same approach we always have, of basketball being an afterthought, something to keep us occupied between football season ending and baseball season starting, and that we only care if we are really good and the games don’t inconvenience us too much, and we are just going to hire a mid-major coach and hope he works out while we keep supporting basketball poorly, then I would rather stick with Brad.
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All-In [40100]
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Ok I admire your response. Thank you.
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Mar 12, 2023, 10:53 PM
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I think we should pursue a better program, I hope administration is ready. Football and Basketball make money. I suspect increasing our budget could end up a good investment.
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All-In [44050]
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I hope so too.***
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Mar 12, 2023, 11:01 PM
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All-In [40100]
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I’ll do my part and admit that I think Clemson and Brad
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Mar 12, 2023, 11:10 PM
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Got royally screwed this evening. To put nc state over us after 3 head to head wins is just plain stupid. But that doesn’t change my overall opinion of needing a change. We can agree to disagree on that for now.
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CU Guru [1893]
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All-In [44050]
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I’m not satisfied with the status quo.***
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Mar 12, 2023, 11:21 PM
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All-TigerNet [13513]
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Re: Sure, I’m fine getting a new coach if it means Clemson’s administration
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Mar 13, 2023, 12:01 AM
[ in reply to Re: Sure, I’m fine getting a new coach if it means Clemson’s administration ] |
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But the point being made is a valid one. No killer coach is going to come to Clemson without a financial commitment to the program to do what he believes is necessary to take us to the next level. If we aren't going to pony up for that then we probably continue to bring in coaches that drive some incremental success but still don't take us to the promised land.
At some point, this vicious cycle has to be broken or we just admit we are a football school and continue in a rinse-and-repeat mode where basketball is concerned.
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All-In [31313]
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Re: Sure, I’m fine getting a new coach if it means Clemson’s administration
Mar 13, 2023, 11:37 AM
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But the point being made is a valid one. No killer coach is going to come to Clemson without a financial commitment to the program to do what he believes is necessary to take us to the next level. If we aren't going to pony up for that then we probably continue to bring in coaches that drive some incremental success but still don't take us to the promised land.
At some point, this vicious cycle has to be broken or we just admit we are a football school and continue in a rinse-and-repeat mode where basketball is concerned.
Wonder how that conversation went with Neff after last season on the possibility of a bigger investment? And why sign for more years if you felt your program lacked financial support?
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Legend [16259]
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"All In" started with Dabo's first game as interim coach in
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Mar 12, 2023, 11:43 PM
[ in reply to Sure, I’m fine getting a new coach if it means Clemson’s administration ] |
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2008. He asked it from his players and his staff. It was a vision and a promise that he brought and infused into the program. Dabo leveraged that vision, and success on the field that followed, into more, and greater. The school's investments in Dabo and his program have delivered immeasurable returns since, well beyond just football.
"All In" wasn't 'let's pour a ton of money into a sport and watch it blossom' as this sounds. The money and investment followed someone delivering on a vision and promise, and blooming where you're planted. Brad Brownell offers none of that. It stinks, but it's the truth.
Brad's program budget today, including his salary, has been at a level that should be producing far more than a 70+ annual average end of season status. That's why the informed and reasonable among us understand that it's about the leadership, not the resources or support. We are in a very attractive position with both a fan base that will pack out Littlejohn for a team with a pulse, a top 40 budget that has room to grow with the right man at the helm, and a national brand that has never shined brighter than it has this past decade, which is being squandered in our second most important sport.
Let's find someone that can fill their end of the bargain in hoops. Basketball is an afterthought today because its leadership is flat, uninspiring, and unpredictable. We have been giving Brad nearly twice the resources to succeed than he delivers on. Replacing that component with someone who could simply live it up to that commitment would be a significant improvement.
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Orange Blooded [2000]
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This is a correct evaluation
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Mar 13, 2023, 9:18 AM
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Success first. More investment second. Not vice versa.
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All-TigerNet [13513]
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Re: This is a correct evaluation
Mar 13, 2023, 11:20 AM
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If you want an "up and comer" to come in and prove himself first, then I agree. If you want a seasoned, proven veteran to take a chance on us then you are going to have to show him the commitment up front to get him.
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Legend [16908]
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Re: Sure, I’m fine getting a new coach if it means Clemson’s administration
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Mar 13, 2023, 12:07 AM
[ in reply to Sure, I’m fine getting a new coach if it means Clemson’s administration ] |
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Fallacy stacked upon fallacy. Barnes was a significant hire that paid immediate dividends. The Shyatt hire made all the sense in the world on paper but simply didn’t work out. Purnell was another serious hire that paid immediate dividends making the NIT his second season and never failing to make the post season after. Finished his tenure with 4 straight 20+ win seasons and 3 straight NCAAs. With his departure Clemson had the opportunity to make a big move and completely squandered it. Brownell was not the first choice. Rick Stansbury was the first option and he backed out at the last second. TDP panicked and hired the first warm body he could find to obscure the embarrassment. And we’ve lumbered on for 13 seasons.
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Freshman [2]
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Re: Sure, I’m fine getting a new coach if it means Clemson’s administration
Mar 13, 2023, 12:20 AM
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Rick Stansbury lost to Louisville and South Carolina this year, and just quit WKU.
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Legend [16908]
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Re: Sure, I’m fine getting a new coach if it means Clemson’s administration
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Mar 13, 2023, 7:06 AM
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I didn’t like the Stansbury hire either but we were poaching a well established SEC coach - not cheaping out on a mid major. My argument is with JK’s narrative - because it isn’t true.
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All-In [44050]
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Legend [16908]
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Re: We tried to hire Stansbury from Mississippi State in 2010.
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Mar 13, 2023, 2:19 PM
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You might be able to meaningfully contribute if you stop blocking everyone that knows more about Clemson basketball than you.
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110%er [7166]
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and you think that will change? So you're good with hiring
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Mar 13, 2023, 9:11 AM
[ in reply to Re: Sure, I’m fine getting a new coach if it means Clemson’s administration ] |
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another Brownell and starting this all over? B/c that is probably what we will do. We never go get a real contender. OP was a toss up who's style worked but waned in the championship/tournament part of the season. Barnes was an up and comer that worked but was another toss up. No one knew he would be that successful. Shyatt was a pretender coach that proved to be a waste of time. Brownell has been a slow and steady coach that never did bad but never did great. So, why waste time trying another guy no one has ever heard of? Either go get Pitino or Pearl or some other successfull cheater and lets go get it! Otherwise lets just see if Brownell can get us over the hump next year. He needs one good superstar recruit.
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Varsity [237]
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Re: and you think that will change? So you're good with hiring
Mar 13, 2023, 9:37 AM
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Let's go out and get a Nate Oats.
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110%er [7166]
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or billy osteen
Mar 13, 2023, 9:55 AM
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who?...
exactly.
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110%er [5972]
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Legend [17612]
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Neither Dean Smith, Coach K, Dabo Swinney or Saban
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Mar 13, 2023, 1:05 AM
[ in reply to Sure, I’m fine getting a new coach if it means Clemson’s administration ] |
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started out as highly touted celebrity coaches. They outsmarted and outworked their competition and earned it. Greatness does not happen overnight, nor does it happen after 13 yrs in a program. Dean Smith went to his 1st Final Four in year 6. Coach K went to his 1st Final Four in year 6 at Duke. Dabo Swinney finished in the Top 10 for the 1st time in year 5. Nick Saban finished in the Top 10 for the 1st time in Year 5 at Mich St, then won it all in Year 4 at LSU, then his 2nd championship in Year 3 at Bama.
These coaches had greatness in them and built programs over a few years. They did not languish for 13 years then become great. Some have it. Some do not. Brownell has been given a fair shot. It's past time to give another young coach his fair shot.
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All-In [44050]
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Your examples are mostly coaches who had many advantages provided to them.
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Mar 13, 2023, 9:47 AM
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Clemson basketball doesn’t provide those advantages. Hopefully that is changing.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: Your examples are mostly coaches who had many advantages provided to them.
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Mar 13, 2023, 12:02 PM
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You're admitting that if CBB doesn't have an advantage over his competition he can't be expected to win. That's what his critics say is the problem. An advantage can be found if you look hard enough. That's what separates good and great coaches from the mediocre ones. You and CBB have a defeatist attitude.
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110%er [6281]
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CU Guru [1321]
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If you want to blame the administration fine...
Mar 13, 2023, 9:00 AM
[ in reply to Sure, I’m fine getting a new coach if it means Clemson’s administration ] |
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but if you want better fan support, then put a better product on the court. Because there are so many mid-week games, basketball has to compete with so many other things. Our fan base isn't confined to just the Clemson area. Heck, even if you lived in Greenville you'd have to leave work a little early, pick up the kids (who are going to have to skip their practice), grab a bite to eat somewhere, and then make the hour-ish drive. People have a lot of other stuff going on, so if you want them to show up, then don't consistently lose to teams like Loyola Chicago.
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All-In [44050]
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Blaming the team for mediocre fan support is ridiculous.
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Mar 13, 2023, 9:49 AM
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It’s not like we are a bottom ACC team. We are fifth in the ACC in wins since 2017. That’s worth supporting, at least for fans who actually care about basketball.
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All-In [43774]
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Ah, ok. Who do you blame for lack of fan support?
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Mar 13, 2023, 9:52 AM
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I think it's fairly well documented that our fans will give great support to a team that is performing well, winning games, and on track to go to the NCAAT.
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110%er [6281]
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110%er [9656]
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Re: Blaming the team for mediocre fan support is ridiculous.
Mar 13, 2023, 5:47 PM
[ in reply to Blaming the team for mediocre fan support is ridiculous. ] |
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Clemson is 5 hours from one home, 14 from the other. I make some sacrifices to attend the 7 home games we get during football season because, it’s 7 games and all (or most) played on Saturday. It’s hard to pick up and go to a Tuesday game when there are so many. That’s the reality of it and why more don’t show. Then there is the seasonal disappointment that comes along with getting our hopes up. I get that investments need to be made and the program needs a money transfusion but to be honest, if one cent of that came from football I would be red face pizzd! At least I am admitting the truth
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Recruit [94]
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Re: Sure, I’m fine getting a new coach if it means Clemson’s administration
Mar 13, 2023, 10:17 AM
[ in reply to Sure, I’m fine getting a new coach if it means Clemson’s administration ] |
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and fans are ready to go “all in” on basketball.
If it means that we are prepared to spend more on our program and support it better as fans, and get a coach who is a proven winner - ideally at the high major level, sign me up.
But if we are going to take the same approach we always have, of basketball being an afterthought, something to keep us occupied between football season ending and baseball season starting, and that we only care if we are really good and the games don’t inconvenience us too much, and we are just going to hire a mid-major coach and hope he works out while we keep supporting basketball poorly, then I would rather stick with Brad.
I don’t understand why our AD/administration never goes all in for basketball. Winning basketball creates a great home atmosphere for football recruits on official visits. It all goes hand in hand.
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Walk-On [102]
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Re: Sure, I’m fine getting a new coach if it means Clemson’s administration
Mar 13, 2023, 11:12 AM
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According to an article in Stadium:
While we found that there’s a fairly strong correlation between recruiting spending and recruiting class rankings in college football, there’s not an apparent sport-wide correlation in college basketball.
We found that while a serious financial commitment to recruiting in college basketball can lead to highly ranked recruiting classes and NCAA Tournament success, it’s certainly not a prerequisite.
Of course, recruiting is based on relationships, and while there’s no stat or metric to quantify which coaches are the best at developing a strong relationship with a prospect, his parents and/or his high school coach
There are plenty of examples of men’s basketball programs, like the Tar Heels, that don’t break the bank for recruiting yet still assemble elite classes.
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All-TigerNet [13513]
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Re: Sure, I’m fine getting a new coach if it means Clemson’s administration
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Mar 13, 2023, 11:27 AM
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On that last point, UNC does not have to spend a lot on recruiting because of its legacy. Kids want to go there, so they attract the cream of the crop and largely have their pick of the litter.
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All-In [31313]
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Re: Sure, I’m fine getting a new coach if it means Clemson’s administration
Mar 13, 2023, 11:44 AM
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Well you get to wear the Jordan brand and Lord knows that is probably a big draw for some of these kids.
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Walk-On [102]
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Orange Blooded [2679]
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Kudos for that response...
Mar 13, 2023, 12:00 PM
[ in reply to Sure, I’m fine getting a new coach if it means Clemson’s administration ] |
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I don't see eye to eye with you on everything (what two people do?), but you answered that as well as you could have. I'm with you on the need for improved support if we are going to try and get a better coach. If we are not going to improve support, then we shouldn't expect to be able to recruit/keep a better coach than BB. BB might be the best coach we can get for our current support level. While I agree with others that BB has some significant flaws as a coach, we can't expect a top-notch coach to come and stay with our current support level. Improve one or be satisfied with the other. It's the same position we were in with Jim Davis in Women's Basketball... and firing him turned out to set that program back 15 years.
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Orange Blooded [2444]
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Re: Judge Keller you told me before the season that
Mar 13, 2023, 2:40 PM
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I just TU-ed a Coach Keller post. Heh. Strange times.
I was just looking around for what up-and-comer might be hired if we didn't want to spend mega millions on a big name. Bob Richey at Furman was an assistant when I worked at Charleston Southern. Nice guy and soft spoken back then--I wonder if he still is? That's pretty cool.
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