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CU Medallion [73569]
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Man, they did Dixon dirty
Sep 20, 2021, 9:22 PM
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This ain't gonna ay well on the cruitin trail.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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BS.***
Sep 20, 2021, 9:25 PM
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All-In [31499]
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Re: BS.***
Sep 20, 2021, 9:28 PM
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CU Medallion [73569]
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Maybe behind the scenes, there's issues
Sep 20, 2021, 9:41 PM
[ in reply to BS.*** ] |
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But from the outside, it just reeks imo
I doubt Dixon goes quietly either
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Lot o points [155930]
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I’d like to hear LJD’s side once he’s out.***
Sep 20, 2021, 9:47 PM
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Hall of Famer [21090]
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me too...
Sep 20, 2021, 9:50 PM
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other guys in the past that had issues had them regularly (Bellamy, Kendrick, etc). We have never heard a peep about LJD until CJ came in this year. Something stinks.
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All-In [42170]
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Lotta y'all on Tigernet getting real quick turning on CJ
Sep 20, 2021, 10:20 PM
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And forgetting all he did for our program. LJD hasn't earned a fraction of that respect here.
Dabo has assembled an incredible staff over the years. He's had a nose for talent far more than he hasn't. He's got the hardware to prove it.
Now after three games and one player leaving, y'all are gonna throw all the benefit of the doubt on that player?
Okay.
If Dabo says Spiller is the man for RBs, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt until they ALL start ######## the bed and we stop landing great RB recruits.
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Lot o points [155930]
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That’s called blind faith. Something I don’t normally
Sep 20, 2021, 10:25 PM
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Associate with you. I don’t give a rat’sass what CJ did as a player when it comes to evaluating him as a first year coach—-a first year coach who just ran off the best player at his position 3 games into the season. CJ could have 10,000 all purpose yards at Clemson, it tells me NOTHING about his ability as a coach.
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All-In [42170]
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One might call it...
Sep 20, 2021, 10:27 PM
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Not being too quick to pass judgment on the man when we're only three games in. And our RBs are not the problem right now on O.
You keep saying he ran him off. Others might say that he made a coaching decision based on work ethic and attitude, and that a player chose to bail instead of handling it maturely and doing what his coach requested.
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Lot o points [155930]
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I’m not quick. This is a culmination of much frustration
Sep 20, 2021, 10:34 PM
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With the offense.
I’ve thought Elliott was average on a good day for years. I’ve noted that Stoudt was the only QB that got better over time under Streeter. I’ve wondered if keeping Caldwell year after year meets the definition of insanity. And yes, I’ve wondered how CJ could possibly be ready to step into an important position coach role with precisely zero coaching experience. I’ve been watching this for a while. Tony’s house is a mess.
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All-In [42170]
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Re: I’m not quick. This is a culmination of much frustration
Sep 20, 2021, 10:38 PM
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I'm more worried about Elliott's attitude following the loss. It was very Kevin Steele-esque (remember that time he ranted about playing "winning football" after Connor Shaw shaved Steele's ### in 2011?).
I want to wait and see on CJ. We've got a star emerging in this #### show and CJ is working with him. Also, isn't the RB position the easiest to coach on offense?
I went back and looked at Dabo's quote. He mentions LJD not being a team player. I wonder if this could be him getting a bad attitude over having to give up more carries to Pace and Shipley. Do you think maybe that was the problem? That he demanded the lion's share?
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Lot o points [155930]
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Here’s another quote.
Sep 20, 2021, 10:48 PM
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Sure doesn’t sound like anything bad to me, and as you read it, I want you to picture our reactions if Elliott had taken his new RB role back then and benched Andre Ellington, with Andre ultimately transferring after three games.
“ I have because I’ve been a part of his life,” Elliott said Monday. “But at the same time, too, CJ has to establish the culture in that room. Really the biggest thing is just accountability and communication between the two. I remember when I first came in (as Clemson’s running backs coach in 2011), I had Mike Bellamy, I had Demont Buice, (Andre) Ellington was an older guy, I had Hot Rod (Roderick McDowell), and I had to establish the dominant role in that room.
“Obviously, Ellington had been here for a while, and not saying that we were butting heads, but we had to get on the same page. He had to understand what my coaching style is, and that’s what you’re going through there.”
Elliott then said that Dixon has to get used to Spiller’s hard-nosed style.
“Obviously, Lyn-J has been used to me, and now he’s just getting used to Spiller. But y’all know Spiller, y’all know the character that he has and how he’s going to establish the hierarchy in that room,” Elliott said. “And any of us that are in a situation where you’ve got a chain of command, you’ve got to respect the chain of command and do things according to how the person that’s leading the room sets it. So, it’s really more accountability and communication between the two. They’re working through it. But you know our program, too. That’s what the foundation of our program is – accountability.”
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All-In [42170]
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So that sounds like...
Sep 21, 2021, 7:51 AM
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Elliott had the same philosophy as Spiller, agrees with Spiller's methods, and understands players need to do as their coaches say. It sounds like he and Ellington had a somewhat similar issue, but Ellington was mature enough to handle it.
You know, I hope they didn't screw LJD over, but I'm never going to be down on a coaching staff backing their fellow staff members and making sure it's understood that they're in charge, not the players.
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Lot o points [155930]
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It sounds to me like Elliott was a more polished leader
Sep 21, 2021, 7:56 AM
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who used tact and diplomacy to break through to Andre because he recognized it was best for the team. CJ has never been in this position before. It happens every day in the business world where a newly-minted manager comes in like a bull in a China shop and alienates top performers on their team. If I hadn't seen it so many times in my past career, I wouldn't be jumping so quickly to suspecting that's what happened here.
You can win them over intelligently with the carrot or you can take the R. Lee Ermey Platoon method and try to win them over punitively with the stick. The latter rarely works and I suspect it failed here as well.
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All-In [42170]
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How do you know that for sure about him?
Sep 21, 2021, 8:00 AM
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What if he did try those methods with LJD and he wouldn't respond, thus resulting in having to take more serious measures? You don't know if he treated him like Private Pyle.
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Lot o points [155930]
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I'm playing the odds here.
Sep 21, 2021, 8:09 AM
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My experience (and my admitted bias) comes from developing and running the leadership development function for a couple companies in my previous corporate experience. Yep, this is football, but the human dynamic of an individual contributor becoming a leader with direct "reports" is pretty universal. It's a natural instinct for a top talent to enter a leadership role and expect everyone to do it their way or the highway, and scorch a lot of Earth early on before learning how to lead individuals.
Could I be wrong? Of course. For all we know LJD could have said "F your mama" to every instruction he got from CJ. I don't consider that likely because it wasn't in LJD's past, and it wasn't LJD's dynamic with Elliott. He had shown (that we know, and I feel like we'd know) no propensity to naturally resist being managed until CJ.
If I'm right, it doesn't make CJ the worst hire ever, but it makes him a fairly typical person with a lot to learn about leadership who just learned a really "expensive" lesson.
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All-In [42170]
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Re: I'm playing the odds here.
Sep 21, 2021, 9:28 AM
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Well, if we're going on personal experience, I've got quite a bit on the leadership front as well and organizing teams with a structured hierarchy that allows people to earn higher positions with their work. And I do agree with you that the human dynamic applies in all areas, and while exhibiting effective leadership to cultivate and empower those under you is crucial, I also know that problem people who want to be rebel leaders against the leadership team must be snuffed out when they refuse to adjust their behavior.
While "my way or the highway" isn't a good leadership strategy, leadership teams can't cave to problem people when they have made it clear they won't be a team player or adjust their actions. I think this is especially true when we're talking coaches vs. players. The inmates can't run the asylum.
I'm also playing the odds, and I think the odds favor our coaching staff's history here.
As for LJD's behavior, I dunno. Maybe he felt entitled once ETN left and thought he was going to be the top star, and when he learned he was going to have to share time, maybe he didn't handle it well.
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Hall of Famer [21090]
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Not turning on CJ...
Sep 20, 2021, 10:27 PM
[ in reply to Lotta y'all on Tigernet getting real quick turning on CJ ] |
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but it just seems weird in this particular situation. I'm sure we aren't getting anywhere near the whole story so to speak, but what we are getting just seems fishy. Just my opinion obviously as an outsider looking in.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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All-In [43728]
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Victim mentality
Sep 20, 2021, 9:44 PM
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Don’t penalize the program for not sharing dirty laundry. I can assure you he has some. He may go on to be a first round pick, he may go on the Bellamy route. Time will tell.
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Lot o points [155930]
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Man don’t even make the Bellamy comparison.
Sep 20, 2021, 9:50 PM
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Not even close.
Dabo shouldn’t have made his snarky “needs to grow up” remarks if he didn’t intend to explain further. He should have shut up before even saying that. It was petty. Dude doesn’t just turn toxic after 4 years.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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This is the type of stuff that can kill a locker room
Sep 20, 2021, 9:54 PM
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As well.
It's not like a first yr leaving. I'm sure Lynn j has a ton of friends.
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Hall of Famer [21090]
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100%
Sep 20, 2021, 9:57 PM
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and a locker room that is already probably low on morale because of the team's performance so far. Not good from any angle.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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All-In [42170]
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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Like a bunch of 13 year old girls.***
Sep 20, 2021, 10:09 PM
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Lot o points [155930]
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Go light another candle on your Dabo does no wrong shrine.
Sep 20, 2021, 10:13 PM
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Then say three hail Tonys and two Our CJ’s.
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All-In [42170]
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Two big ole fat natty trophies...
Sep 20, 2021, 10:15 PM
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Earns one a lot of candles. Sorry, man, but it has been pretty clear that Dabo has superb control over the environment and morale of these players. We've got plenty of people lining up to play here. If LJD couldn't play ball with this staff to get on the field, perhaps he was more of a problem than you're realizing.
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Lot o points [155930]
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That’s a great point….
Sep 20, 2021, 10:22 PM
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If there hadn’t been one, and only one variable switched between the productive and trouble free years and this year, namely a new position coach with zero experience. LJD has a track record of not being a problem player. CJ has zero track record of not being a problem coach. Not sure why you guys are so eager to throw the player under the bus when he has the benefit of the doubt here.
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All-In [42170]
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I'm not throwing LJD under the bus
Sep 20, 2021, 10:29 PM
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But you seem to have made up your mind who is at fault without knowing all the information. How are you so certain he didn't screw up and then refused to make it right?
Maybe they did do him wrong. History shows that's not likely the case, but I'd like to know more.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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I didn't like Dabo airing it in public or TE
Sep 20, 2021, 10:24 PM
[ in reply to Go light another candle on your Dabo does no wrong shrine. ] |
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doing the same, but feel you're way off the mark here.
But, I'm going to take the opinion of a coach over an individual player any day unless I have some inside information to the contrary.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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Lot o points [155930]
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Correct. In a normal team environment,
Sep 20, 2021, 9:59 PM
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The latter gets a talented veteran who has waited his turn benched, the former doesn’t.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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No, what gets him benched, is getting beat out
Sep 20, 2021, 10:02 PM
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in practice by not performing as well as the other RBs.
It ain't complicated.
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Lot o points [155930]
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I take it you missed every single article where
Sep 20, 2021, 10:05 PM
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Dabo said his depth chart spot was due to the spat with CJ. it seems more complicated than you think it is.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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Spat with CJ over Pace and Ship moving up
Sep 20, 2021, 10:08 PM
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depth chart I assumed.
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Lot o points [155930]
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Yes, because every time in the past when a new player beats
Sep 20, 2021, 10:11 PM
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Out an older player, Dabo doesn’t say a word about performance differences and instead mentions growing up. Why, I still remember how he said Stoudt and Bryant needed to grow up when DW and TL beat them out. You’re just trolling now.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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Thinking that LJD pouted over playing time
Sep 20, 2021, 10:18 PM
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and that's why Dabo said that. Ship and Pace were better in practice and Lynn J. got passed.
He didn't get passed for needing to grow up. He got passed because CJ thought the other two were better.
I could be wrong but think you're putting too much value in coach-speak.
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Lot o points [155930]
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Joe….tell me this. Dabo rewards performance and effort.
Sep 20, 2021, 10:29 PM
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When has he NOT lauded the player who won the starting spot? It’s super-common. And yet when asked why LJD was third, there was no “Shipley earned it. Shipley and Pace just had a great spring and earned it”. Nothing like that. We did get a “you’ll have to ask CJ” and “LJD needs to grow up”
If Shipley earned that spot purely on performance, then Dabo gave him the worst recognition for the achievement imaginable.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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Yep, like I said, you're giving too much credence to what
Sep 20, 2021, 10:56 PM
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Dabo said, and like you said, Dabo ain't perfect.
But we just don't know. I could be totally wrong. It could be a going to class issue or being late for meetings issue. Those certainly aren't toxic issues.
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Lot o points [155930]
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True. I think the one place we really converge on
Sep 20, 2021, 11:02 PM
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This is that we both hope I’m wrong.
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All-In [43728]
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I can assure most of what has transpired
Sep 20, 2021, 10:18 PM
[ in reply to I take it you missed every single article where ] |
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Has not been reported. Never has, never will. You seem to be running hard on the reported facts and there is nothing ever wrong with that. It is reasonable to think though that there is more to this situation.
You seem to acquit LJD of any actions other than being victimized and that’s difícil para mí bajar con.
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All-In [42170]
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"Dude doesn't just turn toxic after 4 years."
Sep 20, 2021, 10:06 PM
[ in reply to Man don’t even make the Bellamy comparison. ] |
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I've got a laundry list of people I've known who turned toxic in a shorter time than that. Maybe Dabo shouldn't have said that publicly, but maybe he was also sugar-coating it.
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Lot o points [155930]
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I don’t think you guys read these articles, for real.
Sep 20, 2021, 10:09 PM
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Tony said that he got along fine with LJD and the friction was CJ “establishing his hierarchy” in the RB room. They were clear that it was CJ’s call and even implied it wasn’t their choice but they supported CJ. this is like Groundhog Day around here.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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No, I just think you read it wrong. Assumed all
Sep 20, 2021, 10:12 PM
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along it was over playing time. Ship and Pace played more in first stadium scrimmage over a month ago.
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All-In [42170]
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C'mon, man.
Sep 20, 2021, 10:13 PM
[ in reply to I don’t think you guys read these articles, for real. ] |
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Dabo ain't going along with this if he doesn't agree with the decision. And he's backing his staff members.
I know LJD is talented and we may regret this loss, but if he's not going to respect the coaching staff, the coaching staff can't blink. Maybe they did him wrong? Sure, maybe. But if this is coming to him wanting his way and Dabo backing someone on his staff, I'll side with the coach maintaining that authority on the staff. That sends a powerful message to everyone else. No one is above the program.
I also hate to go here, but this staff has the trophies and rings to sling their ##### around here.
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Lot o points [155930]
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Bruh, absent some major changes on the point scoring side
Sep 20, 2021, 10:20 PM
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Of the house, we’re on the slow train back to average-ville.
I’m ok with the end result because I’d like my old Lot 2 pass back for less than a new Honda a year and I’d love to see Winkopp choking on some unsold condos because Clemson suddenly wasn’t the bandwagon fan darling of the nation, but I hate to see a player who paid his dues and stuck with the school when he had choices previously treated this way.
He could have left last year when Etienne came back. Dabo and Tony would have told him then to take that route if he was a problem.
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All-In [42170]
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Re: Bruh, absent some major changes on the point scoring side
Sep 20, 2021, 10:25 PM
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I’m ok with the end result because I’d like my old Lot 2 pass back for less than a new Honda a year and I’d love to see Winkopp choking on some unsold condos because Clemson suddenly wasn’t the bandwagon fan darling of the nation, but I hate to see a player who paid his dues and stuck with the school when he had choices previously treated this way.
LOL. #### Winkopp.
I do too (seeing a player leaving). I hate seeing any good player leave our program. But we also know Dabo and his staff don't just #### on good guys. Have you considered LJD possibly took a real bad attitude turn? Maybe came in entitled? Maybe wasn't being the leader they expected him to be? He's still in his early 20s. Young men can change pretty #### fast then and lots of things can affect that attitude.
I'm not accusing LJD of this, but if he decided to challenge anyone on the coaching staff, I respect the staff refusing to give in. Hell, for a championship program, they CAN'T give in.
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All-In [43728]
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Lot o points [155930]
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We aren’t going to end up there because Dabo
Sep 20, 2021, 10:39 PM
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Will have no choice but to revamp the offense before we get there, but as it stands, yes, enjoy Brent trying mightily week in and week out to pull off a miracle, because that’s set in stone.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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What did I miss?
Sep 20, 2021, 9:53 PM
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Other than him entering the portal?
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All-In [42170]
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We have no idea...
Sep 20, 2021, 10:05 PM
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What he may have done to get here. Maybe this isn't deserved; maybe he's the one who is out of line. The coaching staff does the right thing if they aren't airing out details to the public.
I wish him the best, but we don't have enough information to blame our staff. For all we know, he could have been the butt hole.
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