Replies: 63
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All-In [46834]
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If SC is going to ban abortions,
Feb 19, 2021, 7:34 AM
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they need to make the baby daddy marry the woman carrying the baby and he can't divorce her.
Put that in law as well.
I hear all the time "well there's consequences for sex"
But that is only for the woman so far. What's the consequence for the sperm donor?
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All-In [38213]
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There are no consequences for men
Feb 19, 2021, 7:42 AM
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because it’s all men making the rules.
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All-In [42204]
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There's a lot of silliness in that bill.
Feb 19, 2021, 8:04 AM
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Those cheering it are the ones getting played.
Everyone who passed the bill knows it's getting shot down by a judge. It's just another move in abortion chess to use it in the next election. McMaster and all who passed it could not care less about abortion. Hell, they want it to get shot down by the judge. It will be more of a pain in the ### to enforce it.
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CU Medallion [66100]
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I fully support abortion
Feb 19, 2021, 8:05 AM
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As long as men can have a financial abortion before the kid is born too. Pro-choice
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Legend [17918]
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Consequence for the sperm donor?
Feb 19, 2021, 8:57 AM
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Child support
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All-In [40941]
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Child support with no option to choose abortion***
Feb 19, 2021, 3:32 PM
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: If SC is going to ban abortions,
Feb 19, 2021, 10:13 AM
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Does it ever occur to anyone that once you give the government the power to say that one CANNOT have a medical procedure that we also give them to power to say that one MUST have a medical procedure ?
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: If SC is going to ban abortions,
Feb 19, 2021, 10:20 AM
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That’s a fair point from the pro abortion point of view. The problem is that many of us do not see abortion as a medical procedure. We will never concede that so the subject is always going to be divisive.
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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Yawn...nobody is pro-abortion.***
Feb 19, 2021, 10:25 AM
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Yawn...nobody is pro-abortion.***
Feb 19, 2021, 10:36 AM
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Ok pro choice. It’s all in the wording.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: If SC is going to ban abortions,
Feb 19, 2021, 12:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: If SC is going to ban abortions, ] |
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Tar
I take your point. However, the medical community, the majority of the population and the Supreme Court disagrees with you on that matter. At that point it seems like anti-choice people are refusing to deal with reality, which is your right. If you are against abortion, don't have one. But it seems unreasonable to expect the rest of us to adhere to your version of "reality"
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: If SC is going to ban abortions,
Feb 19, 2021, 12:49 PM
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I hear you and from your world view your logic is reasonable. My world view is not coming from any court , medical community, etc. I couldn’t care less what the opinion of the medical community is. Abortion is the ending of innocent life. I understand that people disagree. But that’s my stance and it won’t be swayed.
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All-In [46834]
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Tardog in his post:
Feb 19, 2021, 12:51 PM
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Listen here snowflake, this is what I feel and no logic or professional opinion will change that.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Tardog in his post:
Feb 19, 2021, 12:54 PM
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Oh good grief. You know exactly where I’m coming from. I’m coming from a biblical world view. Disagree all you want but just stop with your little comments.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Tardog in his post:
Feb 19, 2021, 12:58 PM
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One more thing FBcoach. I was not being disrespectful to Tobias. I’m sure if he and I had a conversation over lunch we would disagree on about everything. But he can disagree and have a conversation without , well, like you.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Tardog in his post:
Feb 19, 2021, 1:34 PM
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Tar
When we are free from this pandemic, I would enjoy that. And we can agree that if it gets too heated, we will switch the discussion to Clemson football - on which I think we CAN agree.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Tardog in his post:
Feb 19, 2021, 1:42 PM
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Tobias, That would be awesome. I truly would enjoy that. You do realize I’m a Tar Heel right? So, it could get crazy even with the football. Lol. No, I’ve lived in the Clemson area for 33 years and have 2 Clemson granddaughters. I have the highest respect for Clemson as a university and football program.
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Hall of Famer [24123]
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Re: Tardog in his post:
Feb 19, 2021, 7:05 PM
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Some people think it is ok to cut the arms and legs off of their offspring and suck the remains through a vacuum tube, and some people don't think it's ok. Just a basic difference in humanity, that's all.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Tardog in his post:
Feb 19, 2021, 8:19 PM
[ in reply to Re: Tardog in his post: ] |
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Tar
ALL of my people are from Gastonia, so I am used to dealing with demented Tarheel fans. I look forward to the end of this pandemic - and a cold one.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Tardog in his post:
Feb 19, 2021, 8:47 PM
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You got it.
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All-In [42204]
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And you're their target audience.
Feb 19, 2021, 1:05 PM
[ in reply to Re: If SC is going to ban abortions, ] |
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McMaster and the others in the GOP know this law has no chance of standing, nor do they care. They just hope to play this little abortion chess move to secure more votes from people who are overly emotional about the issue, and they'll know you'll vote lockstep for them without looking at other issues.
They could give two ##### about abortion in this state, but they'll pretend they do to get your vote for years to come.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: And you're their target audience.
Feb 19, 2021, 1:36 PM
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Cat
I am curious - just how many of the laws that the state legislature passes do you think that they really care about. I am of the opinion that they often vote on things just to get re-elected.
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All-In [42204]
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Re: And you're their target audience.
Feb 19, 2021, 1:42 PM
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I would wager that's the case with many politicians. And not just SC.
I'm not so cynical that I think they don't have conviction in many areas. Just a lot of the crap they push or past is just to maintain office.
More reasons for term limits across the board.
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All-Conference [400]
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Re: If SC is going to ban abortions,
Feb 19, 2021, 1:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: If SC is going to ban abortions, ] |
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Tardog, I want to get your thoughts on this analogy.
Say you're going for a drive and ask your friend if they want to come along. They say yes so you hop in the car and start driving. You're not the best driver and accidentally run off the road into a tree.
You wake up in the hospital and are attached to your friend through some tubing. The doctors tell you that unless you stay in the hospital attached to your friend for the next 9 months, they will die.
Should the government be allowed to punish you if you make the choice not to stay attached?
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: If SC is going to ban abortions,
Feb 19, 2021, 1:15 PM
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I actually do have a medical background and I’m trying to come up with a medical condition where my friends life would be dependent on me for 9 months after an auto accident. If you can come up with one I’ll be glad to give the question a stab.
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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Please tell me your feelings on IVF then.***
Feb 19, 2021, 1:17 PM
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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Tardog?
Feb 19, 2021, 6:25 PM
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Tardog
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All-Conference [400]
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Re: If SC is going to ban abortions,
Feb 19, 2021, 1:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: If SC is going to ban abortions, ] |
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Wasn't shooting for medical realism with this one, more of a hypothetical. But I'll amend it.
Say you have a child who is diagnosed with liver failure. You are informed that you (the father) are a match for your kid and could provide part of your liver to keep them alive. There are no other matches in your family and the doctors tell you that without a transplant soon your child would die.
Obviously the good thing to do in this situation is to donate part of your liver, you'll live without it and likely keep your child alive. The question I have though, is should the government be allowed to punish you for choosing not to donate part of your liver in this situation?
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: If SC is going to ban abortions,
Feb 19, 2021, 1:38 PM
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That’s a much better scenario. I’ll give you credit for that. There’s a difference in the two. With the liver failure the child may die from my act of omission. I would be a true scum bag if I didn’t help my child. However, the child’s life , though fragile , is still in the hands of God. My actions , though selfish, still leave the child’s fate in the hands of God. Some of us still believe in miracles. I have witnessed them in the hospital. With the abortion the death of the child comes from an act of commission. The death is clearly the act of the parent. It’s a premeditated act of commission. In my opinion there’s a big difference in the two scenarios. Neither parent would get “parent of the year” awards.
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All-Conference [400]
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Re: If SC is going to ban abortions,
Feb 19, 2021, 2:02 PM
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Miracles aside, say your child does die because of your choice not to share your body's resources with it. Putting aside arguments over whether a fetus is a person, I can't see a big difference between that and an abortion. In both cases you end up with a dead child because of your actions.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: If SC is going to ban abortions,
Feb 19, 2021, 8:36 PM
[ in reply to Re: If SC is going to ban abortions, ] |
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Tar
I have often wondered how christianity might be different if the 10 Commandments were written in positive terms rather than negative - for instance, thou shalt tell the truth at all times rather than thou shalt not bear false witness.
The dilemma that you have been presented with reminds me of the philosophical trolley car problem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtRhrfhP5b4&ab_channel=ComedyBites
BTW this is from The Good Place TV show. It is a hilarious TV comedy based around philosophical premises. The philosophical adviser was professor Todd May from Clemson.
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All-In [42204]
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Missing the point, bruh
Feb 19, 2021, 1:36 PM
[ in reply to Re: If SC is going to ban abortions, ] |
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The question isn't about situations like that existing. It's the hypothetical. He's applying this to women who are told near the end of term that they either get an abortion or die. Or face a strong possibility of death.
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All-Conference [400]
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Re: Missing the point, bruh
Feb 19, 2021, 1:48 PM
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What I was trying to go for is driving=sex. Legal and fun but can have unintended consequences (car accident or pregnancy). In both situations, because of your actions, someone else is dependent on your body to live. I want to know whether that should be a legally enforceable standard in both situations
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Orange Blooded [3078]
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Re: If SC is going to ban abortions,
Feb 19, 2021, 1:38 PM
[ in reply to Re: If SC is going to ban abortions, ] |
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He tried to make going on a car ride with a friend analogous with becoming pregnant. To make it work, he invented a medical condition in which to people were attached by tubes in a struggle between life and death. Pretty soon, there will be a magical wizard introduced into the analogy. You will never reason with him. Cut your losses and move on.
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All-Conference [400]
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Just for you AFDAWG, I've got a really fun one
Feb 19, 2021, 2:30 PM
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In this situation, let's imagine that humans are some form of reptile that lays eggs instead of carrying a fetus to term (and no I don't want to talk about that other type of lizard people).
Would there be any difference to you between laying an egg and abandoning it because you don't want to raise it versus choosing to have an abortion?
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Orange Blooded [3078]
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Re: Just for you AFDAWG, I've got a really fun one
Feb 19, 2021, 2:48 PM
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Let's start with your first analogy. Presumably, the friend attached with the tube represents the baby. This friend freely chose to take a car ride, fully aware of the risks of an accident and equally aware of a fictitous ailment which required two adults be "tubed" together. Taking in all that, he or she chose to go on the ride and wound up clinging to life. To work, your analogy would have to have the baby making decions which led to it's current situation. Do babies make decicions which lead to their concemption (being attached to the tube)? As for your reptile analogy, I'm not sure of the point you're making. Instead of eggs, lets say a person could abandon an actual, live baby (you know, like sometimes actually happens). If you're asking me if there is a difference between abandoning a baby and aborting one, yes, there is, provided the baby is abandoned where it is certain to be found alive.
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All-Conference [400]
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Wow I didn't think you'd play along
Feb 19, 2021, 3:01 PM
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The choices that led up to the situation described in the first example are inconsequential in my view, because it's too late to go back and change things. You are now in a situation where, because of your actions (poor driving) someone else's life is dependent on you, and your only choice at that point is to stay attached or detach yourself.
The reptile example is more of a response to tardog's claim that there is a difference between omission of lifesaving support and commission of an abortion. In this case the egg is the same as a human fetus, rather than incubating inside the body it is outside. The reptile parent could omit their support, which it seems would be consistent with the idea that omission is okay while commission is not. Do you think it should be legal for reptile parents to walk away from the eggs they produce, or should there be a legal requirement that an egg is incubated until it hatches?
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Orange Blooded [3078]
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Re: Wow I didn't think you'd play along
Feb 19, 2021, 4:49 PM
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I still can't buy your analogy. In one case the person likely to die made choices which contributed to their death, accident though it was. They knew there were risks and they freely took them. Not so in the case of abortion and I don't think that's an "inconsequential" difference. Back to the reptiles, I do think some places allow parents to leave a baby at designated locations "Safe Haven." I'm not sure if that answers the point you're trying to make. I don't think it should be legal to leave a baby where it is not going to be cared for....a dumpster, the woods, etc.
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All-Conference [400]
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Re: Wow I didn't think you'd play along
Feb 19, 2021, 5:11 PM
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Okay, if you don't like the driving analogy that's fine. I gave another one to Tardog that I'm interested in hearing your response to.
The reptile people is just another way of looking at pregnancy. Rather than carrying a baby inside their bodies the reptile people lay eggs with human/reptile embryos. If a reptile person walked away from its egg before it hatched, this would be analogous to a human woman aborting her baby before it's born. I'm asking this question because I'm interested in when a parent's bodily autonomy outweighs the life of its child.
I'm not trying to come up with gotchas to catch you guys, I'm just interested in where your moral justifications for your beliefs come from. I think analogies can sometimes remove certain factors to challenge our biases.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Wow I didn't think you'd play along
Feb 19, 2021, 6:03 PM
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You asked where our beliefs come from. Easy answer for me, the Bible. I believe the Bible to be the word of God. I realize that’s an unpopular belief on this forum and I can live with that. It actually takes pressure off of me because I don’t have to lean on my own understanding of issues but rather, the Bible. (That’s actually scriptural). As a result , life is created by God and my job is to submit to Him.
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All-Conference [400]
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Re: Wow I didn't think you'd play along
Feb 19, 2021, 6:27 PM
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I don't think the problem most people have on this board, or society in general, is with your beliefs or faith. I think it's nice that you have something you can find beliefs from.
The problem seems to be when religious people try to make the rest of society act along the lines of their beliefs. The SC abortion bill would take away a medical option for a pregnant woman. It would be illegal for doctors to perform an abortion. And we're doing this all over how some people feel about a book?
I say live your life by your own moral code, don't force it on other people. I've been to church a fair number of times in my life, and I never thought of the Bible as this law everyone needed to follow. I seem to remember a lot more sermons about love and forgiveness.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Wow I didn't think you'd play along
Feb 19, 2021, 6:33 PM
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“Live your life by your own moral code”. That’s pretty much what most people do.
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Orange Blooded [3078]
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Re: Wow I didn't think you'd play along
Feb 19, 2021, 7:51 PM
[ in reply to Re: Wow I didn't think you'd play along ] |
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A person can believe abortion is wrong irrespective of anything in the Bible. Why is it a "problem" when religious people try to influence society based on their beliefs? Isn't what what everyone does?
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All-In [42204]
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I'll ask the question more straightforward:
Feb 19, 2021, 2:39 PM
[ in reply to Re: If SC is going to ban abortions, ] |
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Why shouldn't a woman be allowed to save her life if doctors tell her she can or likely will die by carrying a baby to term?
Is that good enough to try to reason with someone?
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Orange Blooded [3078]
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Re: I'll ask the question more straightforward:
Feb 19, 2021, 2:50 PM
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Yes, in matters of life of the mother abortion is an unfortunate reality. Before you go there, rape too.
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All-In [42204]
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Okay, good.
Feb 19, 2021, 2:57 PM
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That's about what Chris was getting at.
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Orange Blooded [3078]
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Re: Okay, good.
Feb 19, 2021, 3:05 PM
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Maybe but his analogy didn't work.
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All-Conference [400]
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Re: Okay, good.
Feb 19, 2021, 3:09 PM
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Not what I was getting at. I don't think we need to make exceptions for life-saving measures or cases of rape. I think anyone should be able to exercise their bodily autonomy to the degree that they can choose to take their body away from another person in need of said body to live. I don't care what actions were taken beforehand, who's fault it is, any of that.
Government shouldn't be telling me what I can or can't do with my body.
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Orange Blooded [3520]
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Just to play devil’s advocate...
Feb 19, 2021, 2:59 PM
[ in reply to Re: If SC is going to ban abortions, ] |
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Some may say that the hypothetical magical wizard of which you speak is indeed the whole problem here. Can you see where the invocation of an imaginary magical wizard might be frustrating to those trying to take a more reasoned approach?
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: If SC is going to ban abortions,
Feb 19, 2021, 1:32 PM
[ in reply to Re: If SC is going to ban abortions, ] |
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Tar
I'm good with that - to each his (or her) own. We just can't make public policy based on your individual stand, OK ?
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: If SC is going to ban abortions,
Feb 19, 2021, 1:50 PM
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I get that. Abortion will never be illegal in this country and I understand that. People always come up with all these “what if?” scenarios about the life of the mother , etc. That’s not to norm. Most abortions are performed as a matter of convenience. The mother is too young, too poor, in Med school and not ready, etc. I just think abortion is a big scar on our society. I’m in the minority and I’m cool with that.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: If SC is going to ban abortions,
Feb 19, 2021, 2:00 PM
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tar
Sorry if I put you in the crosshairs here.
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: If SC is going to ban abortions,
Feb 19, 2021, 2:44 PM
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No, it’s all good. Comes with the topic. . The debates start, people come up with what if scenarios and around and around we go. Eventually everybody gets tired and just picks up their football and heads home.
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Orange Blooded [3520]
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Well...here’s another ‘what if’
Feb 19, 2021, 3:46 PM
[ in reply to Re: If SC is going to ban abortions, ] |
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Regardless of ones opinion on Abortion, I don’t know if anyone who wouldn’t support some sort of practical legislation/effort to reduce the number of procedures. The reality is that kids are going to have sex...so why not make it easier for them to have safe sex by making contraception more readily available...in schools for instance. Just give it out like candy. Cost has to be minimal compared to what we pay dealing with generations of unwanted babies who have a higher chance to wind up on govt assistance and/or in jail.
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110%er [5694]
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An example consequence is
Feb 19, 2021, 10:23 AM
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FBCoachSC® which should be enough to scare anyone into an abortion.
you left yourself open for that one! haha
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All-In [42204]
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Re: An example consequence is
Feb 19, 2021, 12:55 PM
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All-In [34486]
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Re: An example consequence is
Feb 19, 2021, 1:20 PM
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All-TigerNet [10902]
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uh, you already have to pay for the kid or go to jail.
Feb 19, 2021, 10:42 AM
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In principle, I don't think abortion should be illegal. I don't think there should be a government, so essentially nothing would be "illegal".
But because we don't live in a free country, we don't have a free medical education or medical care system, so we are all forced to pay for other people's abortions. In that sense, I'm fine with them being illegal (in the current situation).
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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I love to see married men argue about stuff that will
Feb 19, 2021, 1:19 PM
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never affect them.
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All-In [42204]
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Well...
Feb 19, 2021, 1:34 PM
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Except if they knock up a mistress. Then they'll become pro choice real fast.
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All-In [40941]
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There is always a choice
Feb 19, 2021, 3:34 PM
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the choice was made before conception.
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All-TigerNet [13160]
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: If SC is going to ban abortions,
Feb 19, 2021, 8:43 PM
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I just had to say that this has been the most interesting, respectful, and constructive conversation that i have seen on this board in quite a while - and with what can be an explosive topic at that. Thanks everyone.
BTW, A federal judge has already issued an injunction on this law.
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