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Lot o points [155944]
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Mangey TL-related QB development talk---SI article
Jan 4, 2022, 8:39 AM
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So I've always said that TL wasn't as NFL-ready as the draft position indicated, and that a year behind a veteran would serve him well, but the mostly-unspoken message from this article is that our system and QB-development is doing these guys no favors when they hit the big time. DW and TL seem to have had the God-given talent to prevail, but otherwise the last 5-7 years have seen a veritable QB graveyard of players who have flamed out and never progressed. I truly can't name one QB in the Renfrow mold who was raw but coachable and was turned into a real diamond. This culminated in this season with a QB who regressed to one of the worst in the country, with a 4 star backup with 2+ years with our staff under his belt who we didn't trust to relieve DJ for more than a series at a time. So is it Streeter? The system? Both?
"Of course, none of this means Lawrence won’t make it. From a mindset standpoint, he’s handled everything as well as you could expect a 22-year-old to, and the physical talent, like these guys said, is all there. Part of the problem, to be sure, was the simplistic system he played in at Clemson. The Texans actually adjusted their offense to work for Deshaun Watson when he was a rookie coming of the school, then built from that baseline. Maybe that’s what Lawrence needs now. And, of course, it’s not his fault that he’s behind where Luck or Manning were coming in. But it does bring context to the gap between the way we were all talking about Lawrence for three years and what we’ve seen since April."
https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/01/04/monday-afternoon-quarterback-trevor-lawrence-antonio-brown The Jaguars' No. 1 pick has worse stats than anyone else in his draft class. Here's what scouts are saying now. Plus, the Buccaneers' WR situation, Zac Taylor on stability, Ryan Tannehill on a rule change and more.
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CU Medallion [66085]
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Sounds like it was a #### good call to
Jan 4, 2022, 8:41 AM
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promote Streeter, then.
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All-In [25721]
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Re: Having an OL worth a sh*t would’ve helped TL a bit***
Jan 4, 2022, 8:48 AM
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All-In [43774]
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That, a coach with NFL experience. Stability within
Jan 4, 2022, 8:50 AM
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the organization. Fewer injuries to playmakers. And more!
All are stated in the article but don't follow the narrative presented by Obed.
Can't give the coaching staff any credit when these kids would have been NFL starters as 16 yr olds!
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Lot o points [155944]
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narrative?
Jan 4, 2022, 8:56 AM
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I've fretted since the draft that TL would get no development under Urban. Don't get butthurt, I'm discussing one facet of the issue.
And are you arguing that the Texans have measurably better OL play, coaching, and playmakers to have their 3rd round pick be more successful than TL?
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All-In [43774]
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Lol, ain't nobody butthurt here. Narrative, yes.
Jan 4, 2022, 9:14 AM
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Your OP seemed to point at lack of development, system, etc. while at CU not having him NFL ready...or at least not as NFL ready as he should be.
I can agree he isn't getting shat at Jax. That's the most dysfunctional club in the NFL right now and by far. Total shatshow. And Urban led that charge.
Hard to comment on the Texans being measurably better in any area than anyone. They are hot garbage as well.
I'm not ready to indict the CU experience for TL and DW as one that regressed them though. Both won it all and both were legitimate heisman contenders. DW's ability as a playmaking threat separated him from TL and many if not most other NFL QBs his rookie season.
First overall pick I get will see an extra level of scrutiny. Comparing TL with Manning/Luck seems early and a stretch given their careers in the NFL.
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Lot o points [155944]
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And the more I think about it....
Jan 4, 2022, 9:13 AM
[ in reply to That, a coach with NFL experience. Stability within ] |
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tell me where our coaching staff deserves major QB development kudos since we gave Stoudt a revised gameplan for the Oklahoma bowl game that helped him with the struggles he had under Morris's too-rigid system.
You like to paint me as a hater, and that's fine, but tell me where I'm wrong on this one? Just give me a single QB who showed marked improvement when they left vs when they started and I'm glad to reconsider my position.
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All-In [42902]
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TL's running and RPO improved significantly from where
Jan 4, 2022, 9:19 AM
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he started as a freshman. Can't say who gets credit for that.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Don't see it I guess.
Jan 4, 2022, 9:23 AM
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What I did see was us calling more run/RPO plays for him later on rather than us calling them all along and him looking better at them later on.
I guess it depends on whether we didn't do more earlier because he wasn't good at it or because it occurred to Tony that it would be good to try later on, but I recall several later season interviews where the pre-season comments were "we're going to try to run Trevor more".
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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Boyd, Bryant, DW, and TL all showed
Jan 4, 2022, 9:21 AM
[ in reply to And the more I think about it.... ] |
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much improvement over their careers at CU.
DW and TL weren't NFL ready out of HS.
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Lot o points [155944]
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DW?
Jan 4, 2022, 9:35 AM
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His first year as a starter was virtually identical, and arguably better (more total yards, more TD's, fewer interceptions, better passer rating) than his final year, and his freshman year is hard to correlate as he wasn't in a system designed for him at that point.
TL? Very similar 2nd year and 3rd year.
Bryant? His one full year as a starter his rating plummeted, and his inaccuracy ultimately cost us the title.
Boyd wasn't in the body of work as he was a product of a previous QB development staff.
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Oculus Spirit [83127]
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For me, it's easy to see DW's improvement over his fist game
Jan 4, 2022, 10:05 AM
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vs. UGA in 2014 to his final game against Bama in 2016. Much of that was physical attributes but, imo, he improved as a passer, runner, scrambler, and game manager.
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Heisman Winner [137976]
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How many QBs are we even talking about here?
Jan 4, 2022, 9:23 AM
[ in reply to And the more I think about it.... ] |
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Are you looking at Dabo's tenure from 2009 (or half of 2008)? Morris's system from 2011? We had 4 years of Tajh, and 3 each of DW and TL. How many years and QBs does that leave for your "did they improve" measurement? Kelly Bryant in 2017? He certainly wasn't ever going to be the QB before or after him, but he DID take Clemson to a #1 playoff seed in 2017. Stoudt was a backup. I don't even know who else we're measuring here.
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110%er [7004]
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Kelly Bryant
Jan 4, 2022, 9:39 AM
[ in reply to And the more I think about it.... ] |
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KB had very real limitations but he showed marked improvement from backing up DW to taking over as a starter. The coaching staff also deserves credit for tailoring the offense to his strengths. I believe he was a three star and was playing above that level by the time he started for us. He also didn't improve after transferring to Mizzou (whose staff had just put Drew Lock into the NFL) which suggests the Clemson coaching staff got all they could out of him.
Boyd also improved over his time, although he was a better prospect than KB from the start. Completion % rose from 52to 69, Yards per attempt rose from 5.2 to 9.3, QB rating improved every year.
DW and TL also didn't get a lot better, although I think part of that is because they were so good to start with (which raises the other issue of why DW didn't start earlier...). I agree the development of Stoudt was non-existent. DJ was horrendous and clearly worse than last year but I wonder if some of that was the family situation.
By my count, thats two that improved significantly (KB, TB), two that were great from the start (DW, TL) and two who plateaued/regressed (DJ, CS) Some of this may be that QB recruiting is a complete crapshoot, especially once you get below the super elite level. That said, I'll join the choir if the qb quagmire continues next year.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Not counting Boyd...he's the Morris, pre-Streeter era.
Jan 4, 2022, 9:44 AM
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I'd argue that Kelly is hard to figure, as he threw a total of 18 passes in two seasons before becoming the starter, but his throwing mechanics and accuracy were abysmal after two years of putting in work in the system. I'll admit his body of work, given it was basically a single season, may be too small to make my case.
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All-In [43774]
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DW and TL became legit heisman
Jan 4, 2022, 9:47 AM
[ in reply to And the more I think about it.... ] |
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candidates over time.
TL's stats got better every year, adjusted for the covid year.
As talented as these guys, not fukkking them up was pretty darn good on the coaches. Both performed at a high level during their tenure.
I mean, Tom Brady hasn't gotten any better in the past 10 years either. RIGHT? Shoot, Drew Brees didn't show marked improvement in his past 5 years either.
I'm with 19b....we aren't talking about but a few QBs here.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Re: DW and TL became legit heisman
Jan 4, 2022, 9:55 AM
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TL's rushing stats took a big drop from year 2 to year 3, adjusting for Covid. Passing did indeed improve.
Ultimately, yeah, it's too small a sample size to say for certain, but our most recent situation with not only DJ regressing majorly, but us apparently not having a single backup capable of relieving him, gives the argument a well-deserved recency bias. I think any betting person would have DJ at least starting a few games next season, so IMHO how he looks will be a relevant tale of the tape.
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All-In [43774]
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And I can see both sides of the DJ situation
Jan 4, 2022, 10:06 AM
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A) Leave him in, get experience, and he'll get better. In hindsight this DID NOT WORK.
B) Run TP, HH, or the Billy boy in there and see what they can do. We didn't. And this DID NOT WORK EITHER.
I'd argue we couldn't have been much worse with ANY of the QBs in there not named DJ. Shoot, a wildcat would have been better.
I can see what they were doing, and I saw it did not work.
Not real sure if DJ did not improve due to coaching or if he was simply at his best all year. My guess is problems with his fanger, knee, y parental drama were major issues for him mentally.
I hope he'll get better but color me a skeptic at this point.
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All-In [42196]
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But this staff has only had...
Jan 4, 2022, 10:36 AM
[ in reply to And the more I think about it.... ] |
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Two guys who had NFL star potential. Who else had it? Deshaun was a star before all this mess in Houston. Trevor has been plopped into a hot Dumpster fire of dog ####. Even the article acknowledges these problems. I'm not sure where you're going here.
You don't think Deshaun and Trevor showed marked improvement? Tajh showed it as well; he just wasn't NFL caliber.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Nossir, as I've said I don't think they had marked
Jan 4, 2022, 10:56 AM
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improvement....by and large they came in well equipped, talent and development wise, and made incremental gains at most while here.
It might help to offer the type of college-level improvement I'm describing that we haven't seen.
Look, from beginning of college to the end, at players like:
Justin Herbert
Joe Burrow
Jalen Hurts
Zach Wilson
All ended their college careers, far, far more advanced than where they started, which speaks pretty highly of the development they received in college.
I'll accept that maybe TL and DW just speak to us recruiting those two better than the aforementioned teams recruited their QB's, giving us less need and room for developing them, but while we have had two under Streeter that remained quite excellent, it's more significant that we have had 2.5 (KB, DJ, and our backup squad) who, quite statically, remained quite average or worse, regressed.
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Heisman Winner [137976]
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Burrow spent his last, single year under Brady at LSU,
Jan 4, 2022, 11:05 AM
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where they had lightning in a bottle with that scheme and and incredible receiving corps. He doesn't even come close to 60 TDs at any other school in the country in 2019. Hurts left Bama and spent his final year under the guy who coached the last 2 Heisman QBs.
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CU Medallion [60043]
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Lot o points [155944]
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He also finished college a much, much, much better
Jan 4, 2022, 10:58 AM
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QB than when he started, which is my larger point.
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All-In [43774]
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Where is the credit due?
Jan 4, 2022, 11:03 AM
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Ohio State for his first 3 years? He couldn't get on the field much.
OR
LSU for his final 2 years? Not sure I EVER remember an LSU QB worth a dime, NFL wise.
Don't forget that LSU team had an NFL record 14 players drafted from that 2019 team, so surely the kids around him helped.
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All-In [31514]
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Re: He also finished college a much, much, much better
Jan 4, 2022, 11:04 AM
[ in reply to He also finished college a much, much, much better ] |
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I think your meter is off. The Bengals were hot garbage, and Burrow (and getting him some weapons to throw to) has them now tops of their division in just year two. You can’t put all the blame on the Jaguars for Trevor’s poor rookie year.
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Lot o points [155944]
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I think you’re missing my point.
Jan 4, 2022, 11:07 AM
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I really don’t give a FF about their NFL success as much as I’m talking about progress and development made as a college QB. It’s impossible to argue that Burrow exited college looking like a similar QB as when he entered.
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All-In [31514]
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Re: I think you’re missing my point.
Jan 4, 2022, 11:08 AM
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No I completely agree, he went in to OSU as a backup and came out from LSU an immediate winner in the league
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All-In [43774]
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Yeah, you can.
Jan 4, 2022, 11:08 AM
[ in reply to Re: He also finished college a much, much, much better ] |
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The Jaguars pile of garbage is much higher and smellier than the Bengals pile JB's first year.
That, and the Jags have a fairly storied history of being shat. Bengals seem to have a more stable organization.
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All-In [31514]
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Re: Yeah, you can.
Jan 4, 2022, 11:09 AM
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As much as I’d love to blame the Jags for 100% of his struggles, I think his play has left a good bit to be desired.
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All-In [43774]
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Well, put that way let me back off a little.
Jan 4, 2022, 11:11 AM
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Maybe Jags aren't responsible for 100% of his struggles, but good lawdamighty they've done him ZERO favors. Not organizationally, not from a coaching standpoint, and not with surrounding him with good personnel.
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110%er [7004]
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Lot o points [155944]
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All-In [43774]
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Burrow=5 years in college and now 2 in the NFL
Jan 4, 2022, 11:00 AM
[ in reply to Burrow went to an amazing ] |
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TL 3 in college and now 1 in the NFL.
Let's see TL in 3 years and compare.
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All-In [42196]
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He also has great skill weapons around him
Jan 4, 2022, 11:07 AM
[ in reply to Burrow went to an amazing ] |
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But he's getting bludgeoned by his line. Similar to Trevor, but Trevor doesn't have anywhere near that WR or RB talent.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Legend [17294]
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So wonder where TK would be if playing at NE.
Jan 4, 2022, 9:04 AM
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Belichek, Arians, Reid or even a guy like Tomlin _ a proven NFL coach and successful GM are big factors IMO. And talented teammates.
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Lot o points [155944]
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Yup, TL going to Jax felt like Spiller going to Buffalo.
Jan 4, 2022, 9:06 AM
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Hopefully his star will still shine brightly enough when his 4 years are up that he can get on with a real team and coach.
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110%er [6238]
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I've heard this for years...
Jan 4, 2022, 9:21 AM
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many many scouts have talked about our simplistic offense.
It works with generational quarterbacks, receivers and WR's, but otherwise sucks.
One scout even said our wide receivers run SIX routes, that's it.
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All-In [26696]
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Yep
Jan 4, 2022, 10:40 AM
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Limited route running, and half field reads. TL has missed a couple of wide open big plays this year because he isn’t comfortable or capable of seeing the whole field yet.
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All-In [42196]
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Whole lotta meh about nothing
Jan 4, 2022, 10:33 AM
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Trevor entered a hot mess in Jax. He had even more drama to deal with than Peyton did, who also put up atrocious numbers. If he continues to struggle while Jacksonville improves, sure, that's a conversation point. Drop him into New England's situation with Mac Jones, or what happened to Herbert last year, and he immediately torches the league.
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All-In [47844]
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Also,
Jan 4, 2022, 10:43 AM
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not saying Clemson's system is not "simple" but how many colleges are running pro-equivalent offenses? There are not many QBs coming out of college that are NFL ready, even though some get thrown into the fire and do well.
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All-In [31514]
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Re: Mangey TL-related QB development talk---SI article
Jan 4, 2022, 10:51 AM
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As sad as it is to admit, I agree. I made a post about this not too long ago about Trevor’s rookie season and how I’m not terribly surprised by how poorly he’s played. Yes, the situation sucks and his team is trash, but after watching him play with us for three years, I never thought he’d be quite as good in the NFL as DW.
I remember reading something not too long ago, one of the elite 11 self-titled QB gurus, Dilfer maybe, made some comments about DJ and the coaching he was getting from Streeter, basically landblasted Streeter and talked about how he doesn’t get it and is a terrible QB coach. I don’t know why DJ went from a 5 star to a complete bust, but at least part of it has to be his coach.
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