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All-TigerNet [10360]
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Just curious, why Stoudt is defended more than others?....
Sep 10, 2014, 9:23 AM
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What is it about Stoudt that has him "immuned" to any negative critiques on here?
Obviously the #1 position discussion is QB. But it seems the vast majority are in agreement that:
Gallman/Choice is greater than howard/davidson
scott as jet sweep/punt returner is greater than humphries
some of the same people that are "i trust the coaches on stoudt" i see posting about how howard is slow/runs upright/doesn't use his size to his advantage/etc....(which i agree with), but it's baffling to see those people get defensive against somebody who thinks DW is better than stoudt, then turns around and throws the "i trust the coaches" stance out the window when discussing the other "position dilemmas"
I'm all for these discussions........it's just odd to see that Stoudt is, IMO, the ONLY player that people get worked up about when he's critiqued or people favor his "backup"
choice > howard............fine
gallman > davidson...........fine
scott (jet sweep) > humphries (jet sweep).....fine
watson > stoudt.........GETS FLAMED
rant over
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CU Medallion [64590]
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D'oh !!!!
Sep 10, 2014, 9:29 AM
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but but, but...that's different !!!!
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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because you're limited in thinking that the impact those
Sep 10, 2014, 9:33 AM
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players have on the whole is the same as a qb's experience as director of the offense.
it's not just about knowing the qb's role, it's about knowing every other role on the offense.
in short, i think you're a football moron.
and if you actually did pay attention, there have been those that have defended howard for similar "good football" reasons, including using howard's block on the dback blitz to watson's right that allowed deshaun to step up and fire the strike to peake in the uga game.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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maybe you're having trouble comprehending...........
Sep 10, 2014, 9:42 AM
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i said the VAST MAJORITY............that's not 100%. Yes i realize and have seen posters defending howard and they have good points, BUT......here's where you checked out and decided to call names b/c i don't agree with your QB view (which is why i asked these questions about Stoudt being defended so much that it brings people to get ANGRY, like yourself)
anyways, the question was for those who DEFEND stoudt (mainly with the "i trust the coaches reason")...........then turn around and call howard slow, ineffective, etc...... or call for scott over humphries............they are out there was wanting their answer............but thanks for your response didn't mean to hit a nerve this early.
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Standout [338]
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The Staff says there's no controversy
Sep 10, 2014, 9:51 AM
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The fact that the OC and HC have both on multiple occassions backed Stoudt as the starter makes the "I trust the coaches" argument more relevant w/r/t Stoudt than some other positions. Dabo has talked some about the value of DJ's experience at RB, but not much and certainly far less than he's talked about Stoudt vs Watson. In fact, I think he's even touted the competition and the depth at RB.
W/r/t football knowledge, the QB position is far more critical than any other. That's true not just because he touches the ball on virtually every offensive snap and the offense needs to go. It's true because of the natural leadership role that goes to the starting QB.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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that's a fair answer....
Sep 10, 2014, 9:59 AM
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so if the coaches publicly "back" a player as starter it makes him "immuned" to critique?
I guess people have changed their mindset since the kyle parker 2010 debacle.
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Legend [17778]
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Re: that's a fair answer....
Sep 10, 2014, 10:27 AM
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I don't think that there is a question amongst any Clemson fan that Watson has a higher ceiling in Morris' offense. Just the same as it appears that from an evasiveness / instinctual level with running the ball that DJ is lowest on the totem pole.
In the end it is risk/reward. If we were coming off a sub-par season I think the coaches would have given the start - or at least even more playing time to the freshman in general. However we had a very good season and are in position have another. If we throw caution to the wind from the get go, then we possibly would have a chance to catch lightning in a bottle or a b@mb .
Cole and DJ know the offense and their roles better than the rest at this point. My thought is that the coaches think this outweighs pure talent at the moment. As the knowledge grows so will the playing time. I think those that are supporting the coached decision with the QB situation at the time support the same decision with the RBs. Do we still get frustrated when DJ runs into his own blockers? Yes. But we also think he has the lowest chance of missing an assignment.
With two games down, I support the coaches decision with what they are doing and I expect to see a good dose of Mr Watson at FSU unless Clemson happens to go off in a positive way from the beginning.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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i heard morris/dabo talk about howards knowledge vs pass pro
Sep 10, 2014, 10:34 AM
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but regarding watson they've said he's there mentally and from a knowledge standpoint..........not to mention coles skillset probably limits the playbook just as much if not more than if watson doesn't know a few plays.
i get that we don't see practice, but we do see games and there is a discrepancy of what we see on the field and what the coaches/dabo says about the QB.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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no, i'm certain it's your difficulty & i imagine there will
Sep 10, 2014, 10:00 AM
[ in reply to maybe you're having trouble comprehending........... ] |
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be others that share in it as well.
as for a nerve, you can't strike one with me, pheebo. there are 7 billion plus people in this world so the chances are fairly good i'll run into a football idiot(s) or perhaps it's something a bit more sinister that's driving you, but either way the outcome is the same.
as for my rationalization if it offends you, so be it; you're not hard to find or difficult to read. you're certainly not looking for earnest football answers as i've seen thom and others offer you them only to be turned away.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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you still haven't answered the question.......
Sep 10, 2014, 10:10 AM
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and if nerves aren't being hit then have a rational FOOTBALL discussion and ANSWER the question......in your opinion. Of course you may or may not fall into the category of people i'm speaking to. If you pay attention i applauded an answer i received above.
put your "i trust the coaches" response aside for a minute and tell me IN YOUR EXPERT non-football idiot/moron's opinion who do you think should play more...........from what you've seen on the field........b/c that's all WE have to go by.
gallman/choice or howard/davidson
watson or stoudt
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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i don't care what you applauded or not that doesn't excuse
Sep 10, 2014, 10:16 AM
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you of my response. as for an answer, you're either not entitled as you haven't earned it or it's been answered before which in this case it has and as i said, you turned it aside. that's on you, not me.
so, this is day "which" of your incessant search for truth and earnest football answers? what's really driving you pheebo? do you have the balls to admit it or is it going to be more of your idiocy and calling dabo a "liar"? that's right, it was too strong a word; at least one of us is paying attention.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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Re: i don't care what you applauded or not that doesn't excuse
Sep 10, 2014, 10:31 AM
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never called dabo a liar........I questioned his honesty to the media regarding the QB situation, when the on field results look completely different than his "unquestioned best chance to win QB"
call it coach speak or beating around the bush, but i don't believe that he or morris truly thinks cole can take us to the promise land and i know there are many others that think the same thing..........we shall see
hopefully dabo's right and cole tears FSU apart
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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Re: i don't care what you applauded or not that doesn't excuse
Sep 10, 2014, 10:34 AM
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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you the news conveniently leaving out important information?
Sep 10, 2014, 10:38 AM
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that was in response to tiger thom who "put words in my mouth" i never called dabo a liar.
"I get that [1]
Posted: Sep 9, 2014 3:58 PM
Reply
But they obviously think a combination of the 2 playing is the best arrangement to win. Now, I get you disagree, and that's fine (of course), but you don't have to reach all the way to thinking them lying or disingenuous to reach that point."
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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your words, not mine. i don't care how much you back peddle,
Sep 10, 2014, 10:42 AM
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i enjoyed it.
i put it in quotes, thom's not the only one "accusing" you based on your offerings or did you miss that? again.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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yeah you missed it b/c you didn't read the whole thread.....
Sep 10, 2014, 10:46 AM
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you pick and choose things to make it appear as the truth
much like the way fans spin stats w/o looking into the details
if that's how you roll, that's how you roll
but you're lying about me calling somebody a liar.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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i read the whole thread & i understand completely what thom
Sep 10, 2014, 11:06 AM
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took from your offering. i happen to agree with thom, but you didn't once confronted with the word, so you back peddled and retrenched, feeling it necessary to back off your sordid personal attack on the man.
honestly, i don't blame you, but that doesn't change what initially took place.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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never back peddled......never said it.....
Sep 10, 2014, 11:09 AM
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those were words from thom that he chose to use
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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you're still doing it, it's beautiful and i now see thom's
Sep 10, 2014, 11:19 AM
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not backing off it either.
maybe you should better think your attacks or choose your words more wisely? is that what the last "how many days" have been about, you trying to make up for the missteps?
day watch ?, pheebo grinding...
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All-In [29036]
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Alright
Sep 10, 2014, 11:20 AM
[ in reply to never back peddled......never said it..... ] |
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In that thread I was merely saying there was no reason to argue against the motives of the coaches making this decision
"They repeatedly argue that Dabo is loyal to a fault and that the coaches aren't playing who they think gives them the best chance to win."
From:
http://www.tigernet.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=15775946
To which you responded:
"it makes it difficult to believe dabo/the coaches.......when they say they are going to play the QB that give us the best chance to win."
and
"but it makes fans question his honesty when speaking to the media about the situation"
From:
http://www.tigernet.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=15776028
So that is where the term lying came into play, I was recapping your argument of "questioning his honesty" and having difficulty "believing" him.
You then either clarified or backed off that assertion, which I take completely as you qualifying (legitimately) your view. But others may not as it does sound a bit like saying "I'm not saying he's a liar, I'm saying he's telling us something he doesn't believe to be the truth"
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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Re: Alright
Sep 10, 2014, 11:30 AM
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i still stand by what i said....I think there's a big step between "calling somebody a liar" and questioning the discrepancy of what we hear and what we see on the field.
JMO........I think it's odd to state that cole is the Clear #1QB that gives us the best chance to win........and turn around and put watson in down by 7 on the road in athens.........regardless of scripted plays, regardless of saying he's playing
sure, it's his call he can do what he wants with the team i just wonder/question that they DON'T think deep down/behind closed door/in their heart of hearts that watson gives us the best chance to win.
but like i said maybe it's to "confuse" FSU we shall see soon enough
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All-In [29036]
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As said in that thread
Sep 10, 2014, 11:33 AM
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They may well be wrong.
And being wrong is an easy enough explanation without throwing in the whole "I'm not saying they are lying, I'm saying they know they are saying something they don't believe"
That sounds an aweful lot like lying.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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we don't know what they think.........
Sep 10, 2014, 11:45 AM
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but part of a coaches job is to protect the players......imo
i could see them saying these things........HOPING for success (b/c stoudt's been a good team player/worked hard/etc......giving him a longer leash b/c he "earned his keep").........while believing deep down that watson gives us the best shot, but they're not in a desperate position YET to warrant a change.
again i wouldn't call that lying..........more like holding onto hope more than going with your gut/what you truly believe??.....maybe?....regardless hopefully it all works out to a WIN.
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All-In [29036]
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I'm probably biased here, but I stand by my point
Sep 10, 2014, 10:45 AM
[ in reply to you the news conveniently leaving out important information? ] |
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I did say "lying or disingenuous"
You still seem to be asserting some disingenuous motive to Dabo here.
You call it coach speak (which is typically misdirection to confuse opponents), but I'm still not sure how that would apply in this case.
I stand by my question as to why you think he is starting Stoudt.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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i tend to think coach speak is very much in play here.......
Sep 10, 2014, 10:50 AM
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just like when coaches applaud how great an opposing team is even if they were playing "northeast Wisconsin university state"..........knowing good and well they don't have near the caliber of athletes compared to you/us.
maybe he is "confusing" FSU.......?.......
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Team Captain [459]
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I'll give my opinion as to why he's starting Stoudt..
Sep 10, 2014, 10:52 AM
[ in reply to I'm probably biased here, but I stand by my point ] |
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He's too loyal to make a change.
In my opinion, Dabo sees a guy who has "put in his time" and is "all in" and wants to reward him.
However, when playing Deshaun Watson, we've seen the offense appear more fluid, more explosive, etc.
Cole hasn't played poorly at all, but I also don't think he's played great. He's been serviceable. Deshaun brings a spark to the offense.
The root cause of this whole thing arises when Dabo keeps preaching to the media that there's no QB controversy. If that's the case, then Deshaun shouldn't be coming into the game until the outcome is no longer in doubt. He shouldn't have come in down 14-7 in Athens if Cole is our undisputed #1 starter.
Dabo has created this controversy by playing Watson when he does. There's no need for him to get upset when the media and fans want to talk about Watson (especially when we take a close look at his numbers and realize how much more effective our downfield passing game is with him).
Just my $0.02.
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All-In [29036]
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SO you think he's starting Stoudt
Sep 10, 2014, 10:54 AM
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Even though he doesn't think it gives us the best chance to win games.
Coaches have said all along this is what they were going to do. Start Stoudt, bring Watson in for scripted series throughout the game. They are, in my estimation, developing him very wisely here.
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Team Captain [459]
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I just gave my opinion. I think he stayed WAY too loyal
Sep 10, 2014, 11:07 AM
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to Kyle Parker back in 2010 when we should have started looking towards 2011.
I know we've only seen Watson in two games, but that kid looks more ready than anyone at his position since I've been watching Clemson football.
I just think Watson gives us the best chance to win. I know I'm just a fan and my opinion doesn't matter, but I feel much more confident with Watson at the helm than I do Stoudt.
Ultimately, it's Dabo's team and he sees the guys in practice every day and knows infinitely more about it than the rest of us. So I can't speak to anything besides what we've seen on the field. And in my opinion, Watson has been better. I feel more confident in his ability to lead us down the field than I do Stoudt.
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All-In [29036]
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So then, why do you think he starts Stoudt
Sep 10, 2014, 10:35 AM
[ in reply to Re: i don't care what you applauded or not that doesn't excuse ] |
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If the coaches don't think he gives them, at the moment, the best chance to win the next game, then why is he starting?
See the options are easy here:
1) He's lying and has motivations that supercede winning games
or
2) Right or wrong, he thinks at the moment Cole gives us the best chance (or more accurately Cole starting and Watson coming on to play during the game does so).
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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#2 with a side of.............
Sep 10, 2014, 10:44 AM
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if stoudt gives us the best chance to win then why take him out of the game until it's "in the bag"
not a fan of having our "lesser QB" on the field when the game is in question.
we can trust the coaches, but UGA didn't work out too well..............hopefully FSU does
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All-In [29036]
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Cool
Sep 10, 2014, 10:51 AM
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So we pretty much agree on the answer to that one. To answer your question about switching QB's, I do believe it makes perfect sense to imagine they feel not that Watson is an "inferior QB", but that at the moment the best chance for the team to win is Cole managing the game as starter and Watson coming in for scripted series throughout.
So, we agree he may be right or he may be wrong. My point all along is that he has been open about his reasoning and that there isn't some secret reasoning in play here. WHich, by the way, is not what others have argued here (in fact in this thread you pointed a post by someone saying the only reason Stoudt is starting is due to promises to his dad). That sort of reasoning simply doesn't make sense to me.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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for the record i don't agree with the "promise" crap either***
Sep 10, 2014, 10:54 AM
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All-In [29036]
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Good to know
Sep 10, 2014, 10:57 AM
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I assumed differently by you TU'ing imisscj's post in this thread.
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Oculus Spirit [96857]
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Nice catch***
Sep 10, 2014, 11:27 AM
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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yeah, but pheebo doesn't make weight, thom's got to throw
Sep 10, 2014, 11:37 AM
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him back in and wait till pheebo grows up.
fingers crossed.
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All-In [29036]
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Ah, there's our disconnect
Sep 10, 2014, 10:32 AM
[ in reply to you still haven't answered the question....... ] |
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"who do you think should play more...........from what you've seen on the field........b/c that's all WE have to go by."
I can only speak for me, but in weighing the evidence for my opinion on who should start, then who the coaches pick (after being privy to way more information than you or I) does weigh into it's formation.
That is simply all I, and many other folks, have argued.
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All-In [28802]
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There's also the fact that Howard and Stoudt aren't the same
Sep 10, 2014, 11:05 AM
[ in reply to because you're limited in thinking that the impact those ] |
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Just because the formal situation- that they're both seniors who are probably a little less talented than their backups but whose experience makes them better suited to starting right now- is similar doesn't mean they're the same player. Howard, I think, would not be starting at most schools, and wouldn't be starting at Clemson if it weren't for the fact that the other guys are a walk- on and two freshmen. Brooks or Dye would've been starting this year, had they been healthy. That said, Howard does some good things, and he's helped us so far this year even if I don't think he'll ever be a spectacular RB.
Stoudt, however, might be starting at a lot of different schools, even if he doesn't have the kind of potential that Watson has. He's got limitations, but those limitations aren't as big of a deal as Howard's. He also beat out Kelly and Watson for the starting job, so it's not like he's the starter because of attrition.
I'd just point out that I was one of the people before the season pointing out that Stoudt wasn't going to be better than Tajh, but that I thought he'd be a fine game manager who wouldn't lose games for us. I think that's played out so far. Maybe some others of you had expectations that were too high because you were spoiled by Boyd, so now one bad half of football has caused your knees to jerk at Stoudt.
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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Man, it must be a great life if this is all you have to
Sep 10, 2014, 9:41 AM
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worry about. Just think if it was something important, can not even think of the stress you would be under.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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easy tiger....it's just a discussion board.......
Sep 10, 2014, 9:44 AM
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feel free to answer the question, however i take it you fall under the category of people that i mentioned???
maybe?...
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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Discussion turns into obsession. Just a thought. I am a
Sep 10, 2014, 10:34 AM
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Clemson fan FIRST and foremost. In 65 years of watching Clemson football have never felt the need to choose one player over the other. That's the coaches job and I support them 100% and know that the last thing we need is a division on the football team. JMHO.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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completely agree.........but as a fun hobby of
Sep 10, 2014, 10:41 AM
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being a clemson fan it's my obsession.........but it's far from "being my life".........far more important things in life no doubt.
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Legend [18663]
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It's his groovy looking headband !***
Sep 10, 2014, 9:41 AM
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1st Rounder [623]
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Re: Just curious, why Stoudt is defended more than others?....
Sep 10, 2014, 9:46 AM
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Bc of what was promised to Stoudt and his dad, that's it. That's the only thing, coaches, fans, players, media all know that Watson is the better QB and better overall player. The cool, calm and collected Cole Stoudt has done nothing to show he is any of those things, never played before and anybody can hit check downs the whole game. Make a play or step aside
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Just curious, why Stoudt is defended more than others?....
Sep 10, 2014, 10:02 AM
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It would be nice if this place had mods to clean up garbage like this spewing bull #### that they have no evidence of.
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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Stoudt isn't defended, the coaches decision is.***
Sep 10, 2014, 9:57 AM
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Team Captain [484]
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Re: Just curious, why Stoudt is defended more than others?....
Sep 10, 2014, 10:03 AM
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Have you not seen his hair?
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All-In [30593]
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I think the difference is that Stoudt has played well...
Sep 10, 2014, 10:30 AM
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it's not so much about arguing that Stoudt should be the starter, as much as it is people defending how he has played.
I think there is a misconception that he has not played well enough.
I personally would be fine if Dabo and Chad gave DW the ball. But I think Stoudt has played really well, so I'm not gonna throw him under the bus b/c of one series DW had against UGA.
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CU Medallion [64590]
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I completely agree***
Sep 10, 2014, 10:41 AM
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Hall of Famer [21870]
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it's rassist....
Sep 10, 2014, 10:51 AM
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wait, nope that doesn't add up either because according to you....
scott > humphries
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Oculus Spirit [83125]
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Gallman/Choice are not better than Howard/Davidson
Sep 10, 2014, 11:32 AM
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If they are, they haven't shown it on the field during a game yet. We'll see.
Obviously, QB position is more of a lightning rod. It should be.
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Orange Blooded [2772]
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Re: Just curious, why Stoudt is defended more than others?....
Sep 10, 2014, 11:43 AM
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Maybe, just maybe he's "defended" because the COACHES have decided that he is the starter?!?!?
And maybe, just maybe the COACHES know a little more about the team dynamics than say, perhaps we fans that aren't there 24/7 to evaluate everything involving their players?!?!?
Who knew???
Go Tigers!!!!
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All-In [25393]
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Pheebo, you're always going to have people react quicker
Sep 10, 2014, 11:46 AM
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and more passionately when the leader of an organization is discussed. That's human nature.
There are simply many fans who believe Stoudt should be given more opportunity to assert his leadership, even though most have acknowledged some visible shortcomings.
The same believe Watson needs more time to master his skills and learn our program, and hence, why the better position for him now is back-up.
The Watson protagonists believe he possesses the skills and talent now to lead. Most present valid arguments, finding agreement with the folks who think we should always use our best talent, regardless of age or length of service with our program.
The problem has been the overt stridency of a few of the Watson supporters, who have resorted to ill-conceived criticisms of our staff and Stoudt. Those few have provoked the largest amount of vehemence, perhaps, rightfully so. Most Watson supporters, thankfully, have been reasonable.
I've largely remained out of the fray, for although I want our best skilled talent on the field, I appreciate the fact that our staff is much better versed than I in our team; hence, why I will support their decisions.
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All-TigerNet [10360]
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good answer thanks for the rational response......
Sep 10, 2014, 11:52 AM
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the question wasn't to trigger controversy, but was a serious curiosity question.
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CU Guru [1599]
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Forget the coaches, what would the teammates say?
Sep 10, 2014, 4:57 PM
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Everyone is free to debate pure skill here on Tnet all day long. I don't think the difference in skill is THAT big of a separation in either direction... and I think everyone's posts basically lead to that conclusion.
One factor that outweighs skill is the mindset of the locker room. Do you think that taking away their senior leader who has been a role model of hard work and patience plays no factor?? Of course it does.
That is what makes it different. This is like handing the reigns of HC over to Chad Morris and demoting Dabo to QB coach because of a perceived skill difference. RB boils down to skill and knowledge of the game. The nuances of a QB and leadership are tedious.
So, I'll repeat my question... what would the team say? I am certain that the team is driven by support of the team and coaches and hurt by dissension.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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That has no place in this thread.
Sep 10, 2014, 5:19 PM
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It's a truth interjected into a tangent which was irrelevant, unfounded and in it's own rights deserves no response.
I agree with you 100%. Dabo used the word 'lead.' That give us some insight into the psycology of his motive for not making the transition at this particular time.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Would you say the vast majority of Tnetters are...
Sep 10, 2014, 5:04 PM
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ignorant buffoons?
I mean only an ignorant buffoon would ignore that pass blocking in a smash mouth spread is just an important an attribute for a running back as carrying the ball.
Throw all this up in the air and see how much lands on you.
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Commissioner [905]
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obviously they think Stoudt is the prettiest of them all hah
Sep 10, 2014, 6:06 PM
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a
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