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Addict [413]
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I have seen lots of ppl complain about OL recruiting (long)
Jun 30, 2012, 1:00 AM
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Saying that wouldn't it be nice to have the front page say such and such 5* tackle/guard/center has committed instead of these DL and skill position players.
First of all, there are no 5 star centers or guards in this recruiting class.
For those who do not know as much as others about how the recruiting services work, (This took a little time and research, so stick with me)
On ESPN there is 1 5 star Tackle
On Rivals there is 1 5 Star Tackle
Players are rated on both being a prospect and a contributor. Obviously most players are not ready to contribute imediately on the collegiate level at any of the offensive line positions. Players are much more likely to be able to contribute at the skill positions.
You may not know much about recruiting, but we have actually been recruiting pretty well at the offensive line position since the class of 2009 which included 2 4 star offensive lineman.
2010 was not a great year for OL Recruiting but we still managed to grab Kalon Davis, who was admittedly a project.
2011 we signed Shaq Anthony, Isiah Battle, Joe Gore, Ryan Norton and Spencer Region
Battle was a 4* after Prep school, and Region was on the ESPNU 150 (admittedly overrated)
The 2012 class was impeccable for OL (especially by our standards)
Under Armor All Americans Jay Guillermo and Patrick Destefano came in, Oliver Jones was signed. Unfortunately a 4* Tackle in Javarius Leamon did no qualify or else this class would have been amazing.
Guillermo was the #1 center on ESPN and in the top 10 in rivals at his position.
So yes, under the Tommy Bowden Era there was a change in recruiting philosophy that did not work out and it is taking time to get back to a more pro style OL. But this is to be expected.
Here is a breakdown of just how difficult it is to get a 4* or higher Offensive Tackle
In 2012 there were only 35 4* or higher OT's
In 2011 there were only 26 4* or higher OT's (for the record shaq anthony was the #27 rated OT)
In 2010 there were 33 (Clemson signed 2 of them)
Yes it would be nice for Clemson to get a few more highly rated offensive lineman. But I would argue that since CDS took over we are definitely headed in the right direction.
Another thing that has been stated quite a bit is how poorly our OL has performed, and I would have to agree. It has been our most lacking position group (LB close 2nd). But you have to think about how long it takes for an OL recruit to actually be viable strength wise to be ready to play the college game. Let's say that it takes about 2-3 years to start to become a relevant player on the 2 deep.
So that would be anywhere from Soph/RS Soph/Junior. To be fair. Only 4ish players on our roster were recruited by the new coaching staff. And take into even more consideration that this was under a different offensive coordinator and OL coach.
To summarize: Our skill position and DL recruiting has spoiled people into thinking that we should be landing 5* centers/guards/tackles, and there simply aren't that many. On average there are about 2 to 2.5 times as many 4* WR's as there are OT's, and even more if comparing to OG's and C's.
But there are difference makers, and we are starting to get them.
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Orange Blooded [2507]
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Also it's hard to evaluate talent at the OL
Jun 30, 2012, 1:13 AM
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we've seen 4 star guys amount to nothing while 2-3 star guys seem like the most valuable players on the line. I think it really comes down to coaching and pure meanness. You have to WANT to crush the guy in front of you no matter who he is or what he's going to do and a great coach can take boys and turn them into hogs. I believe we have that in Caldwell who is one of the best in the business. We have the bodies and talent at the OL position, we just need it to grow up and develop a mindset of dominating everyone day in and day out.
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Addict [413]
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Agreed
Jun 30, 2012, 1:23 AM
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Evaluation is the key.
Would have loved to have Kublanow this year though.
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110%er [6937]
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Re: Jim Grobe did it for several years before falling on
Jun 30, 2012, 3:05 PM
[ in reply to Also it's hard to evaluate talent at the OL ] |
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hard times.recently. Amazing how Wake could take the short ones and push you around. We will see if their new OL coach can get them back. If he does it this year, he needs a medal. Even, Ayers at Wofford, does a good job with what he has to work with.
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CU Guru [1899]
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Re: I have seen lots of ppl complain about OL recruiting (long)
Jun 30, 2012, 1:56 AM
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Thanks for your excellent post!
Do the Bostic brothers have any kids? Perry brothers? etc?
GO TIGERS!!!
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Addict [413]
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Re: I have seen lots of ppl complain about OL recruiting (long)
Jun 30, 2012, 1:58 AM
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I know not exactly relevant, but Tuttle has a kid. Freshman. Already has offers from Us, Bama, UF, UNC and anywhere. Future 5 star DT.
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All-Pro [682]
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Re: I have seen lots of ppl complain about OL recruiting (long)
Jun 30, 2012, 3:00 AM
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You may not know much about recruiting, but we have actually been recruiting pretty well at the offensive line position since the class of 2009 which included 2 4 star offensive lineman.
2010 was not a great year for OL Recruiting but we still managed to grab Kalon Davis, who was admittedly a project.
Really? Way to back up your statements. We have done well but sucked?
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Legend [16908]
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Re: I have seen lots of ppl complain about OL recruiting (long)
Jun 30, 2012, 7:58 AM
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He totally backed up his statement. Three of the last four years have been solid for offensive line recruiting and he gave the players and rankings. There are no 5 star o linemen so you don't get the big splash for all the johnny come latelys to flip out about. If you look at the scholarship depth chart you'll see how stacked we are with sophomore, redshirt freshman, and freshman lineman. Now we'll see what Robbie Caldwell can do with them.
(before some smartass calls me out - there have been 11 OL five star players since 2009 per rivals - so not many to go around)
Message was edited by: viztiz®
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Addict [413]
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Heisman Winner [111625]
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Re: I have seen lots of ppl complain about OL recruiting (long)
Jun 30, 2012, 3:07 AM
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Programs like Iowa, GT, Wake forest, Boise State, and plenty of others do not fare as well as us when it comes to signing players with star ratings, yet they mange to produce on the field.
This is an area where player development is huge. Also Consider a program like FSU, that has done better than us with regard to signing Highly rated HS trenchman, has not had a consistent running game in close to a decade, the same can be said about Tenn. Also look at how SCU has killed us on prospects in state the last three years and the frustration mounts
teams like alambama, UF, and Texas have been cherry picking the top tier talent, and it shows. However, recruiting on a developmental philosophy works well for a lot of programs.
Having a good center and freakish Left tackle will take Morris' offense a long way.
We have a lot of bodies and the competition seems to be good. One gripe about Caldwell is that once he finds his starting 5, he sticks with them until injury. Losing Phillip Price killed our late season run last year, and nobody else stepped up and it showed down the stretch.
Our interior running game will flourish if we can field a unit that does not miss assignments and plays smart and tough all game.
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110%er [6937]
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Re: You have got to get those old country boy types that
Jun 30, 2012, 3:12 PM
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will slap your noggin and dare you to get up.
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CU Guru [1146]
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There are 3 legs to this stool that over come the lack of 5
Jun 30, 2012, 7:35 AM
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stars.
1) Numbers - in any 4 year period you must sign a minimum of 5 good olinemen two of those and 4 the other two. You must get them. TB never did thiis and Dabo got off to a bad start with the small first year recruiting class (total of 12). Because at oline the freshmen are never ready to play you must have numbers more than any other position. Looks like we are moving in the right direction.
2) Coaching - The oline coach must be all consumed with the ability of his oline to knock the other team off the line. This includes a crazy tough mentality. B Scott did not have this. Hope we have it now.
3) S & C - I am afraid we are in trouble in this department.
If you have these three you only have to have good recruits not 5 star. And if you do these things you end up getting a few 5 stars down the road.
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Orange Blooded [2760]
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you nailed it!!
Jun 30, 2012, 7:56 AM
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Point for you sir!!!
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Re: There are 3 legs to this stool that over come the lack of 5
Jun 30, 2012, 8:00 AM
[ in reply to There are 3 legs to this stool that over come the lack of 5 ] |
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poor S & C on our team is far and away to biggest problem with our football program!! until this HUGE WEAKNESS is corrected we will never improve!!! this is the most important area and the one area that we continue to fall behind!!
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110%er [6937]
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Re: We certainly have not been getting the push.***
Jun 30, 2012, 3:13 PM
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CU Medallion [67851]
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OT's we need them
Jun 30, 2012, 8:15 AM
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the ones committed and that we look good with are guards. we have needs at tackle. it doesnt appear we are getting many looks there though not sure why.
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Addict [413]
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Re: OT's we need them
Jun 30, 2012, 9:54 AM
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tackle recruits do not like our Depth Chart
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110%er [6937]
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Re: It might pay to sign an extra OL and one less
Jun 30, 2012, 3:16 PM
[ in reply to OT's we need them ] |
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WR. Sometimes, good things happen with numbers.
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Orange Blooded [2480]
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Excellent post. Thanks for breaking it down!
Jun 30, 2012, 8:52 AM
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Go Tigers!
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110%er [6915]
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Thanks for breaking it down...
Jun 30, 2012, 10:02 AM
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And giving some insight on the numbers that were unclear to me.
But if the OL players we are getting are the right guys and just as good as most teams (considering you stated the pool of 5* players is small) then whats the problem with the OL?
Is it an argument of toughness?....or are we going back to the old argument of S&C which I have disagreed with
Anyone that has watched our games in the past 3 yrs knows that we have an issue up front and i want to know why
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Addict [413]
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Re: Thanks for breaking it down...
Jun 30, 2012, 10:07 AM
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I would say the jury is still out on our evaluations and development of these players. They are just now becoming physically ready for the college game. The next 1-2 years will be very indicative on how our OL is going to be under the new coaching staff. Especially the 2013 season
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110%er [6915]
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Thanks...
Jun 30, 2012, 10:10 AM
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Just hope that we can get tough and physical...every other piece is falling into place. I hope our OL follows suit!
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Addict [413]
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Agreed
Jun 30, 2012, 10:28 AM
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I just don't think people understand the recruiting rankings when it comes to OL players
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Addict [413]
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Re: I have seen lots of ppl complain about OL recruiting (long)
Jun 30, 2012, 1:45 PM
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bump for afternoon crowd
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Legend [18133]
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I respect every word of your post. I also respect Battle
Jun 30, 2012, 3:31 PM
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and Gore, who I hope will be great OTs in 2013. right now, however, we are sorely lacking in OTs. We have some STUD interior guys, but we're playing our RG at LT. It didn't work so well in the latter part of 2011. I'm holding my breath and hoping it works better in 2012.
The typical OL we have signed is in the 6'3" to 6'4" range. We have not signed many 6'6" to 6'8" guys. It takes length and athleticism to play tackle on the OL. I agree with you that there are fewer 6'8" guys who can move their feet than there are 6'4" guys with quick feet. Often, you have to develop an OT over two or three years. My biggest concern right now is depth. If Brandon Thomas is our best choice at LT, we are screwed to begin with and doubly screwed if he gets hurt. Not knocking BT, but he is a guard, not a tackle; and certainly not a natural LT.
I hope he makes me look like an idiot, but if he hasn't stepped it up a whole lot since Price went down last year, we're in for some major disappointment. Tajh ran for his life over the last five games of the season. When that happens, he's a turnover machine. Tajh is great when he has time. As long as Price was healthy, Tajh was awesome. I'm really hoping Battle has put on enough weight to take LT over. Coming in at 265, though, he's got at least 20 lbs to go. If he were to come in at 285 in August, maybe there's a chance he could help us this season.
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Addict [413]
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For what it is worth
Jun 30, 2012, 4:02 PM
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I think I read a while ago that Battle was gaining weight, can't remember the exact number.
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Legend [17612]
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OL is one area where we should break JUCO policy ...
Jul 1, 2012, 1:37 PM
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I get it. Clemson does not pursue JUCO. Well there are a small handful of JUCO OL who can meet Clemson academic stds.
BTW great post.
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Addict [413]
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Re: OL is one area where we should break JUCO policy ...
Jul 1, 2012, 1:49 PM
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One of the major problems is not only the academic standards that are hard to meet for Clemson, but also the lack of majors in which their JUCO credits can count for. Many JUCO players are Phys ED or other majors in which Clemson does not accept credits for.
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110%er [5915]
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Re: OL is one area where we should break JUCO policy ...
Jul 1, 2012, 3:27 PM
[ in reply to OL is one area where we should break JUCO policy ... ] |
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Barker added new majors that should make it easier to get junior college transfers in.
I'm not sure we want a bunch of junior college offensive linemen. It will run offensive line development off track and generally, offensive linemen need to be more intelligent compared to other positions.
April 20, 2012
CLEMSON — Clemson University trustees on Friday approved several new humanities-focused majors that could be offered to students by the fall of 2013 and approved the concepts for some major projects.
Trustees approved six new bachelor degrees that would be offered in the College of Architecture, Arts and Humanities. The degrees are in global studies; women's leadership studies; cinema and world cultures; Pan-African studies; sports communication and religious studies.
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All-TigerNet [11435]
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Alot will find something to always complain about***
Jul 1, 2012, 3:28 PM
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Scout Team [171]
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Re: I have seen lots of ppl complain about OL recruiting (long)
Jul 1, 2012, 7:20 PM
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That's all good info but the o line still sucks.
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Amateur [32]
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Agree with what is stated, but....
Jul 5, 2012, 10:33 PM
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what is stated, is exactly why recruiting OL every year is a must.
You can’t skip years like you can with “skill players”. As you stated, and Sammy has proven, they can come in and compete as Freshmen.
Missing a year or even two with skill players can be made up much quicker than getting behind on the hogs
I believe some people here just get tired of seeing others so hyped about recruiting 4 receivers every year
I don’t really care about the ratings.
If Coach Caldwell thinks he can develop a player such as Maverick Morris and he becomes the player we need, that is EXCELLENT recruiting & coaching. I look forward to watching Morris develop. Hope it happens FAST!
Start hitting the weights boy!!!!!
Gotta love the hogs,
but I’ll still be more excited to see a 5* DT/DE.
Just a DEFENSIVE mindset
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Head Coach [759]
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Roger, wait 10 more years. Let me know when Dabo is ready.***
Jul 5, 2012, 11:16 PM
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Recruit [83]
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A redshirt year
Jul 6, 2012, 12:25 AM
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is essential in ol development. You need 3 yrs to get them ready to contribute 2. The good thing is they rarely leave early--bad thing is they do get hurt.
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Tiger Cub [14]
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I expect your OL recruiting to pick up
Jul 6, 2012, 12:56 AM
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soon, starting with the 2014 class.
Brad Scott and John Hunt had SC in a similar hole until we started bringing in a different breed of OL coach 4 years ago. Caldwell may not be as intense/doesn't necessarily try to set the tone for the OL's demeanor by embodying it as Elliott does and Wolford did, but he no doubt understands the importance of recruiting OL who are actual "big uglies" and of making them play like it. All around great Coach. I think Elliott is perfect for USC (zone-read and speead) but I still consider he and Caldwell a toss up as to who I would rather have at SC.
There just aren't many quality OL recruits in the area for Clemson to sign in this class. Maybe Crowder...SC isn't getting him (likely UGA but Dabo can still Dabo). SC just got in on the Dillon boys early and were fortunate to grab a couple projects out of GA.
You guys do have depth and a good bit of it is quality, but I have to be honest...the guys you have right now are just plain soft. The recent picture with the 3 incoming OL and the kicker says it all. You won't see the Stadniks and Shell in a picture like that. Can't believe I was once disappointed we didn't get Guillermo.
Our offensive front is also fairly inexperienced, but I like our chances of having our replacements perform well better than yall's young guys at this point. Obviously, just my opinion.
As with everything, time will tell, but I will be shocked if Clemson doesn't start bringing in much better OL classes next cycle.
Here's to looking forward to November.
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