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Replies: 47
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Orange Blooded [4059]
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JK, I support all Tiger sports. I think U do 2. My question:
Nov 18, 2022, 12:13 AM
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I don’t enjoy reading or writing “negative” posts, hence my oath not to post about Clemson basketball. But this post is about the reasoning of your most familiar viewpoint. You argue that “lack of support” for Clemson hoops, as opposed to football, is why our basketball team is rarely one of the best 68 in the country.
Granted, I, and most Tiger fans, know we have experienced the best decade of Clemson football in 125 years. consequently, Dabo has earned the right to equip his program equal to the best in college football. Dabo has met or exceeded his annual stated program goals virtually every year, his entire career. He’s no superhero. But you cannot argue that he isn’t one of the top college football head coaches in the country.
Yet more than a decade into CBB’s tenure, we are no better than we were when he came in. OP’s success was dimming when we parted ways, but we were still generally expecting to be an NCAA invitee for a first round loss. Saying we are “no better” is generous to our record of tournament invites under Brad. After 12 years, and no likelihood of ending our NCAA drought in sight, it is sleight-of-hand to suggest that lack of support is why our program is irrelevant.
I am not angry, just confounded. What is it I am getting wrong?
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Orange Blooded [3049]
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Great news!
Nov 18, 2022, 1:42 AM
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“Passive Aggression isn’t considered a mental disease”
Go Tigers!
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All-American [557]
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but it can be symptom of mental disorder ****
Nov 18, 2022, 5:37 AM
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CU Guru [1020]
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I don't really care about any sport but football.
Nov 18, 2022, 10:32 AM
[ in reply to Great news! ] |
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But I lo b bbghve the football Tigers!
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CU Guru [1938]
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Re: I don't really care about any sport but football.
Nov 21, 2022, 10:57 AM
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CTE?
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110%er [8009]
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Re: Great news!
Nov 18, 2022, 5:15 PM
[ in reply to Great news! ] |
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It’s a good thing it’s not or JK would be locked away somewhere.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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Lack of support is due to bad bb
Nov 18, 2022, 5:21 AM
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During a coaches tenure. Place was lively during purnell. Bring exciting BB back and youll see the fans return
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All-In [25393]
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I don't condemn J.K for his support of Coach Brownell
Nov 18, 2022, 6:12 AM
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and our BB program, and I generally agree about the lack of overall support, beginning with our BOT, then trickling downwards...unfortunately, which has typically been the case since my freshman year in 1965.
I have posted previously that it takes whole community involvement in all of our endeavors. One of my disappointments has been an apparent lack of ingenuity among our student leadership to fill LJ for our games, especially with our venue sitting right on campus. However, I do understand human nature, and typically people of all ages have to be motivated to action, which as to sports is winning.
South Carolina fills the Convention Center Coliseum for its women's BB games, yet (according to Gamecock friends) their men's program draws only half the attendance. Last year, they averaged over 13,000 attendance for the women's games...a stunning number in of itself.
I'm not so sure the revamping of LJ, including decreasing seating, was wise, for I believe most supported a new venue...state of the art...all inclusive...with a definitive statement from our BOT that Clemson was going to go all out for our program. Then, the administration and student leadership would enervate student body support, the latter of which is done via campus organizations. If changing coaches was part of that scenario, then so be it.
Now, I believe the powers-that-be are not going to do anything to upset the football apple cart. AD Neff might make a move with Coach Brownell, but the facts are his winning average is not far off of some of our most successful coaches; he's run a clean program; he doesn't create waves, so to speak; he's been loyal to Clemson. Per reports, he doesn't like recruiting, and his style of play is not exciting, and his wins and losses are head-scratching, for the most part. Regardless, up to now, I believe he has been regarded as a "safe" coach.
I have been away from Clemson for over 50 years, and I can only relate my own experience during that time, which has been that of the business world. CEO's of business are expected to drive success; failure results in termination. Our sports' CEO's are in charge of multi-million dollar businesses and are expected to win. That, therefore, begs the question: has Coach Brownell won enough to satisfy current expectations? Perhaps, not with our students; perhaps, yes with our administration.
Lastly, I remain strongly convinced that we should never settle for an epithet of being only a football school. We can find success in basketball. However, I believe it's going to require a complete overhaul in the thinking of our BOT, trickling down through our administration to our students, alumni and fans...something I believe all of us would wholeheartedly support.
Message was edited by: hartins®
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All-In [48331]
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Re: I don't condemn J.K for his support of Coach Brownell
Nov 18, 2022, 8:05 AM
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^^^ may be the best explanation I've read ^^^
Scar women bball used to beg people to come. We laugh at them but I'd love it if our program was like that.
All one has to look at to prove hartins point is Clemson softball. The BOT should go in on ALL sports. Believe it or not, Clemson winning in the other sports helps Clemson football.
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Orange Blooded [4095]
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Re: I don't condemn J.K for his support of Coach Brownell
Nov 18, 2022, 10:17 AM
[ in reply to I don't condemn J.K for his support of Coach Brownell ] |
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If you win, fans will come.
If you appear to be developing something, fans will come.
If you play an exciting brand of basketball, fans will come.
We have none of those.
We have a team that's moderately competitive and doesn't get blown out much but needs lucky bounces to win against decent competition. No one is excited by 8 point losses even though they are objectively better than the previous 50 point losses to Duke in the boom or bust years.
The frustrating part to me is I feel like we are always 1 or 2 players away, but it is clear at this point that Brownell's system just doesn't work.
I'd feel MUCH better with the same results if we were developing talent so we had a strong year every 3 or 4 years when senior heavy rather than having players transfer out and replacing them with transfers who are only here for a year or two.
Even without a talent upgrade, we should be able to do what Wake does in football.
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CU Medallion [65500]
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Coach Brownell recruits (when he does recruit) to a system
Nov 18, 2022, 10:42 AM
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which is basically "Live by the three, Die by the three". And yet, the players he recruits are not consistently good enough from beyond the arc to make that a viable offense. So, we can look great one night, and lose to the Sisters of the Poor (South Carolina) the next. And, it is just rinse and repeat, year after year. So, if that is all we ever want for Clemson basketball to be, Carry on.
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110%er [9724]
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Orange Blooded [4035]
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All-In [44050]
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Outstanding post! I agree 100%.
Nov 18, 2022, 2:21 PM
[ in reply to I don't condemn J.K for his support of Coach Brownell ] |
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You make a great point about the Littlejohn renovation. What was initially supposed to be a complete tear down of Littlejohn, with a completely new arena built, was downgraded to become a renovation of the existing Littlejohn.
Let's also not forget that Brownell raised a substantial chunk of those funds himself. He was told early on that if he wanted new facilities, that he would have to go out and raise the money for them. That's not an easy task, especially when asking Clemson supporters for money for basketball. But to his credit, he did it.
As you said though, wouldn't it have sent a more powerful message for Clemson to have built a completely new arena? That would've shown recruits that we really care about basketball, not just sort of.
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Freshman [-79]
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You got it bass ackwards, troll.***
Nov 18, 2022, 5:14 PM
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CU Guru [1938]
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Re: Outstanding post! I agree 100%.
Nov 21, 2022, 10:58 AM
[ in reply to Outstanding post! I agree 100%. ] |
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Stick to your guns, Judge Judy. Don’t back down.
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All-TigerNet [10912]
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Re: JK, I support all Tiger sports. I think U do 2. My question:
Nov 18, 2022, 8:35 AM
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I'll say it. You want crowds and excitement around the program - just win baby. NIL is here and player income is legal. It's time to hand out the car keys like back in the 70s and get the stars. Use what's available until the top players want to come to Clemson and the MBB team can compete. If you say that Clemson should not do that, then don't talk about the state of Basketball at Clemson. Getting 2, 3 and an occasional 4 star player is going to keep MBB mediocre at best.
Sometimes it takes a major shock to improve performance. I've seen it and lived it in business and once the problems are fixed and the "road warriors" are no longer needed transition to a more stable culture.
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Hall of Famer [22717]
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Re: JK, I support all Tiger sports. I think U do 2. My question:
Nov 18, 2022, 10:40 AM
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I support all Tiger teams as well. I just think that sometimes things are just the way they are. The ACC has a long history of great basketball and like it or not, the Tobacco Road teams have usually led the way just like Clemson leads the way in football. Very few schools are really top notch in both sports. Look at Alabama, Ohio St and Ga in basketball historically. Look at Kentucky, Duke, NC and Kansas in football.
I don’t dislike Coach Brownell and to be honest, JK’s assessment of Clemson’s financial and administrative support for basketball vs football is accurate. I think this leads to different levels of expectations for our football and b-ball programs. I do sometimes take exception to some posts that IMO show a little too much envy and sarcasm toward the football program but we all are entitled to our opinions and to post our feelings.
Would I love to see us compete for the ACC basketball crown every year like we do in football? Of course. But I don’t really think a coaching change is going to put Clemson’s B-ball program at the top of the ACC. I just think this is what and who we are.
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All-TigerNet [13504]
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Re: JK, I support all Tiger sports. I think U do 2. My question:
Nov 18, 2022, 10:48 AM
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If we ever get serious again about our basketball program it all begins and ends with recruiting. We have to get a coach in here who kids want to play for. I think this is one of those times where if we are going to make an investment it needs to be by allocating top dollars to go after a top coach who has great success in recruiting.
It will take time to rebuild Clemson basketball back to a consistent contender but to me, this is the best and quickest option to begin that process.
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All-In [44050]
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Kids do want to play for Brownell.
Nov 18, 2022, 2:23 PM
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They just don't want to play for Clemson.
Fix the image issues with Clemson basketball, and we will recruit better.
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Oculus Spirit [82066]
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This is the most hackneyed excuse that ever hackneyed.
Nov 18, 2022, 2:34 PM
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All-TigerNet [13504]
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Re: Kids do want to play for Brownell.
Nov 18, 2022, 2:48 PM
[ in reply to Kids do want to play for Brownell. ] |
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Facilities and such are the eye candy which I agree is important but good players come to play for good coaches who will develop them into the players they want to be...
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All-TigerNet [13504]
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Re: Kids do want to play for Brownell.
Nov 18, 2022, 2:51 PM
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Case in point and I am certainly not comparing Duke's program to ours, but if you have ever been to Cameron Indoor, it can't hold a candle to what we have at Littlejohn after the renovations so if facilities really mattered as much as you say, we should be doing a lot better. As I mentioned, I think their developmental program and the coaches who lead those players matter more.
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All-In [44050]
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I certainly agree that coaching matters. A lot, in fact.
Nov 18, 2022, 3:58 PM
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I’m not suggesting that it doesn’t matter. The coach has to be a credible coach with a good personality. Brad fits that criteria.
When it comes to getting more high 4 star and 5 star types, aside from blue blood programs, I think facilities and atmosphere matter a ton.
Cameron Indoor might not be the nicest or largest arena, but it has a ton of history and is really loud. Sort of like the Boston Garden used to be. And make no mistake, Duke has excellent facilities for the players (practice facility, medical, dining, etc.). That’s what players mostly care about, not the fan side of the arena.
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Freshman [-79]
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You don't have to 4 and 5 stars players to make the tournament.
Nov 18, 2022, 5:17 PM
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Dozens and dozens of teams make the tournament with less talent and facilities, every single year.
It's coaching period. Dabo would have won more tournament games after 6 years than Brad has in 12.
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Hall of Famer [21870]
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Well that's a new one...Just when I thought you were out of
Nov 18, 2022, 4:14 PM
[ in reply to Kids do want to play for Brownell. ] |
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ways to blame anything/everything but Brownell, you found a new way. Congerts.
Also, shouldn't the head coach be primarily responsible for the "image issues" with Clemson basketball? Or let me guess, it's admin and fans fault again?
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All-TigerNet [10640]
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Freshman [-79]
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Oh look, brand new excuse..
Nov 18, 2022, 5:12 PM
[ in reply to Kids do want to play for Brownell. ] |
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Firsr of all, you've been chirping off every offseason about how we have good players for the next season. You're right we do have good enough players. They're just poorly coached.
Then you switch back over to not having good players. Because we can't recruit with our fans and facilities. That's bullshyatt. We get fans and it would be much better if the basketball team ever stopped being below mediocre and putting on a bad show. Plus we have GREAT facilities. Just as good as most teams making the tournament. Again, two tournament wins and two top-40 finishes in 12 years, while stealing the 38th biggest salary in America.
And then you said we don't play well because we don't have good enough assistants.
And now this latest hunk of bullshyatt.. we can't players because of our image. What image, a top 30 academic school, in the ACC, with a sports hungry fanbase and a national powerhouse in football. Kids sure do seem to want to play in other sports at Clemson. So whats basketball's problem? Answer: Brad is not an exciting dude, and he doesn't win enough.
There is no image problem with our school. There are no issues with assistants or what they're paid, we have awesome facilities, and we have a proven supportive basketball fanbase at a well-reknowned university with tons to offer. Certainly more than the dozens of mid-majors that get into NCAA tournaments while we're sitting at home.
By the way, I suggest Mayflower moving. They did a great job with my last move. Good luck to you and Mr. B!
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All-In [44050]
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First of all, I do think we are frequently one of the top 68
Nov 18, 2022, 1:57 PM
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teams in the country. If we're being fair, making the NCAA Tournament requires us to be one of the 35 best teams in the nation. A large chunk of the NCAA Tournament bids are for automatic qualifiers from conference tournament champions (many of whom are from smaller conferences and not as good as we are).
If it were merely a top 68, we would make it a whole lot more often.
With that said, you and others lose me when you bring comparisons back to football. As you know, Clemson football has a 100+ year pedigree. John Heisman coached here. We had undefeated seasons dating back to the early 1900s. Clemson has been a "football school" for virtually all of its history. The emphasis, funding, and priority go toward football at Clemson, without question.
The result of this emphasis on football has resulted in the success we've had. Danny Ford was a great coach, but he wouldn't have recruited great players to Clemson without the good football history that preceded him at Clemson. He wouldn't have been able to recruit those players without an outstanding fan base that loves and supports football at all costs. For many Clemson fans, football is part of their identity. It's part of their social scene. They devote their entire weekends to it.
As for Dabo, he became head coach just months after we had a top 5 recruiting class. We had a national championship and multiple ACC championships in our history. The West End Zone had recently been completed. Make no mistake, we weren't an elite program then by any means, but Dabo had plenty to work with.
Even still, Dabo was barely above .500 his first few seasons at Clemson. The athletic department's approval for Dabo to go out and hire Kevin Steele was a big deal, because he was the DC at Alabama and also had prior experience coaching in the NFL. When have we gotten to hire a basketball assistant of that caliber? And not surprisingly, our defense improved after Steele came on board. Then, the athletic department allowed Dabo to go out and get an innovative offensive coordinator. This OC brought toughness to a program that was soft and inconsistent. That OC led to us bringing in Deshaun Watson, who changed our program considerably. The rest is history.
This isn't to take anything away from Dabo. He has been fantastic! But he didn't do this by himself. He had to have support from the administration to hire assistant coaches and also build state-of-the-art facilities. The notion that Dabo bootstrapped it and made us elite without a tremendous influx of financial support from the administration and fans is one of the biggest myths on TigerNet. The reality is that Dabo didn't start having success until program funding increased.
The difference between football and basketball at Clemson, as I see it, is that the administration and fans are historically willing to invest in football in order to have more success, whereas in basketball that isn't true.
Basketball at Clemson has a TON of barriers to overcome. First, we play in a basketball-focused conference. We are a football school in a basketball conference, and many ACC schools care more about basketball than we do. We are competing against these schools for recruits. Why would a top recruit want to come to Clemson to play basketball? We don't have much of a basketball history. We haven't put many guys into the NBA. We don't have the best facilities. We don't have a rowdy fan base. We aren't located in an area that appeals to most players. All of these things work against us, so we have to be that much better to make up ground. I know it's nice to think that all you need is an outgoing coach who yells and screams a bunch, or a guy who tells funny jokes, and the recruits will flock. But it just doesn't work that way.
I agree that our program should be better. Brad had a lot to deal with when he arrived, including things he wasn't aware of. The image of our program, on campus and in the community, is much better than it was prior to Brownell's arrival. Our players are model citizens, generally good guys, and do well in school. These are notable achievements. But in terms of wins and losses, it needs to be better.
I've outlined here many times about what I think we need to be more successful. The new facilities (which are now not so new anymore) were much needed, but they were long overdue. They also weren't state-of-the-art in terms of the top programs out there. But for Clemson, they were great. Still, our fans seem to expect us to start bringing in 5 star recruits and winning the ACC, just because the administration threw the basketball team a bone and spent money on facilities. It doesn't work that way.
The biggest issue as I see it has been the coaching staff. We typically don't allow much of a budget for assistant coaches. You can see this by the fact that we've lost assistant coaches (even recently) to take similar positions at other schools for more money. We shouldn't be losing an assistant to Boston College or Georgia for more money if we want to build a winning basketball program.
This isn't to say that Brad can't find good coaches. We've had multiple coaches who have been assistants here who have taken head coaching jobs. That shows that he can hire good coaches, even ones who are relatively unknowns, and teach them. But wouldn't it be nice to be able to keep some of those great assistants when other teams come looking for their next assistant? Or better yet, wouldn't it be great to go out and get a top assistant from another program? When is the last time we did that?
Remember, in football we went out and got highly thought of coordinators to be our coordinators. It wasn't because we were a great team then (we weren't). It wasn't because Dabo is such a likable guy. It was because we were willing to pay them more money. We don't typically do that when it comes to basketball. No, we typically hire assistants from smaller programs. We don't even consider assistants from power five programs, because we don't pay enough. Being able to get a guy like Billy Donlon was a big coup for Brad, but it was only because the administration approved the salary for him to do so. We need more of that if we want to recruit better and move up the pecking order in the ACC.
I'll end this rambling post by saying that I think Brad is a good coach because he does more with less. Our teams play hard. Most players improve while they are at Clemson - some significantly. We are often competitive with teams with more talent and better resources than we have. Doesn't it make sense to provide a coach like that with better assistants, better facilities, and better fan support, and see what he can do with that? Giving him a more level playing field, or better yet, some actual advantages (like the football program has) would be amazing.
If we give our head coach these things, only then will we know if he can have the kind of success we want or not. If he does, great! That's awesome. And if not, then we know we tried. AND, we will be in a much better position to hire his replacement.
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Heisman Winner [140535]
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Dabo was 25 - 16 his first few seasons at Clemson…
Nov 18, 2022, 2:11 PM
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Good for a .641 winning percentage. And that included his worst season as head coach, by far. He also won the ACC Atlantic his first year.
Tack on the partial interim season, so 3.5 years, and he’s still 28-19.
But I get what you’re saying, If we take Dabo’s partial season record when he was interim coach, skip ahead two
seasons and count his 2nd full season as coach so we can get his worst season ever as head coach in there, but don’t count the season in between, or the season after, then Dabo was a .500 coach. Because math.
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All-In [44050]
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Dabo's first few seasons were 2008-2010.
Nov 18, 2022, 2:30 PM
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He was 19-15, a .559 winning percentage.
The 2011 season marked a very important distinction for us, which was Chad Morris's arrival.
Kevin Steele had been here for a couple of seasons already, and although our defense was better, we were still just 15-12 since Steele was hired. We needed something else. We were soft and inconsistent.
Starting with Morris's first season in 2011, we won our first ACC championship since Ken Hatfield was our coach, and played in our first BCS bowl. That was a HUGE deal at the time.
I know it bothers you for me to not include the 2011 season in his "first few years," because it makes Dabo's record look worse and making Dabo look bad is against the Clemson Football Cult rules. But the cutoff between 2010 and 2011 is important for the reasons I stated above.
Thanks as always for diving into minutiae to distract from the overall point - one which you typically either miss or choose to ignore because it doesn't fit your preconceived notions.
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All-In [46565]
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Re: Dabo's first few seasons were 2008-2010.
Nov 18, 2022, 2:43 PM
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Don’t forget Dabo gave his assistants part of his pay to give them raises and get who he needed. This was when he was making 2.5 million a year too!
Brad hasn’t done any of that.
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Orange Blooded [4035]
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Re: Dabo's first few seasons were 2008-2010.
Nov 18, 2022, 3:37 PM
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Amen, since I can’t thumbs up your comment.
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All-In [44050]
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Yes, in 2012 Dabo put his bonus for winning the ACC
Nov 18, 2022, 4:21 PM
[ in reply to Re: Dabo's first few seasons were 2008-2010. ] |
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toward raises for Morris and Venables. It’s important to note that this was in April 2012, when he was already in talks with Clemson for a contract extension.
Just two months later, in June 2012, Dabo signed a new three year contract extension. In other words, Clemson took care of Dabo - which was planned when the PR move about him giving up some of his salary for assistants was announced. It makes for a feel-good story, though.
What does this have to do with our administration funding basketball assistant coach salaries so poorly that we lose assistant coaches to programs worse than ours? It’s not the head coach’s job to provide adequate funding for that.
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Heisman Winner [140535]
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Ahh, got it...
Nov 18, 2022, 4:45 PM
[ in reply to Dabo's first few seasons were 2008-2010. ] |
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I got bogged down in minutia as I didn't know your definition of a few = 2.58. And that you are counting 0.58 of a provisional or temporary coaching season as an entire season coached. If only you could get rid of pesky 2009, that one just doesn't fit your narrative, no matter how hard you try.
Maybe you are a visual learner, and pictures will help since words seem to fail you...
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Oculus Spirit [96870]
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Legend [16259]
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Another Brownell defending novella from our resident
Nov 18, 2022, 2:28 PM
[ in reply to First of all, I do think we are frequently one of the top 68 ] |
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Tater hater.
The Complete Works of Shakespeare version will still not help Brad become a better coach than he has proven himself to be over the past 12 years. I hate that for Brad and our basketball program, but that writing has been on the wall for a long time now. It just is what it is. We thought we might be getting the next Brad Stephens with a defensive-minded, motion offense style coach delivering at the mid-major realm. We didn't.
In Brownell's early seasons many of my posts around basketball and the Brownell hire echoed JK's frequent defenses. After more seasons though that ship has sailed and the light has shown. I was wrong. I would love nothing more than to be wrong, again, about Brad's capabilities and potential here, and see this team win more of the nailbiters, make noise in the ACCT for once, and show signs of a brighter future ahead. Pulling for those young men who sport the paw every step of the way.
Go Tigers. All Tigers.
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Orange Blooded [4035]
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Re: Another Brownell defending novella from our resident
Nov 18, 2022, 3:39 PM
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JK support of the basketball team now consists of jealousy jabs at Dabo and the football team.
Sad efforts at best.
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Hall of Famer [21870]
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Hall of Famer [21870]
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Freshman [-79]
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Orange Blooded [4035]
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Another jealousy jab at Dabo. Barely .500? Nope.
Nov 18, 2022, 3:35 PM
[ in reply to First of all, I do think we are frequently one of the top 68 ] |
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Why you keep taking shots at Dabo is certainly a mystery. Then, people that correct or challenge - you quickly try and call cultists. I like to think of them as factual supporters.
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Legend [16259]
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Her shots at Dabo are mostly shots at the many Clemson
Nov 18, 2022, 4:02 PM
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fans who are football first and don't care much for basketball. Those are the people she targets with her trolling and who she wants to see upset and disappointed at season's end like she so often is with Brad's results. If she can't be happy - nobody gets to be happy.
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Freshman [-79]
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Orange Blooded [2362]
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Re: JK, I support all Tiger sports. I think U do 2. My question:
Nov 18, 2022, 3:55 PM
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I don't agree at all with lack of fan and school support as being the reason we consistently perform so poorly. You have to have something for them to support before they blindly throw money at it. Someone mentioned the coot womens basketball team above. That is an excellent example! Does anyone think that U7C poured money into the program or that fans all of a sudden started selling out womens basketball games? NO! They hired a new coach that started having success and the money and the fans came later. I would be willing to bet thats how just about all successful programs got their start. No different with Clemson. Build it (a team), and they will come.
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All-In [44050]
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“Perform so poorly?”
Nov 18, 2022, 4:34 PM
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Our average ACC finish in Brad’s 12 years is 7.58.
The last 5 years, our average ACC finish is 7th. There are 15 ACC teams, so that puts us middle of the pack. Seventh is in the top half of the conference, if we want to be technical about it.
For Clemson, middle of the pack in the conference is well above our historical performance in basketball.
To give you a data point, Brad was the 10th highest paid basketball coach in the ACC in 2021. How can you consider our performance poor when it exceeds where we should be expected to finish based on his salary?
This is where I see a huge disconnect in our fan base. The perceived “failures” in the program are not failures when you look at what we actually invest in the program. As I’ve said before, Brad overachieves based on several metrics and this is one of them.
This is why Clemson continues to keep him around.
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Freshman [-79]
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Two top-40 finishes and two tournament wins in 12 years.
Nov 18, 2022, 5:31 PM
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You can't polish that turd, troll.
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Standout [326]
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Re: Two top-40 finishes and two tournament wins in 12 years.
Nov 19, 2022, 2:53 PM
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I once drove 2.5 hours to watch Clemson play basketball. Realy enjoyed coming to games. Certainly all were not wins. We were competing and the games were good to watch. I can't watch it on TV anymore!
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