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Don't Believe In Evolution? Try Thinking Harder.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Don't Believe In Evolution? Try Thinking Harder.
Jul 1, 2015, 7:48 AM
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That's not my title, it's directly from the link.
http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2015/06/29/418289762/don-t-believe-in-evolution-try-thinking-harder
The first two comments are especially good:
"I wish that people who love to throw stones at the purported "inconsistencies" and "failings" of evolution would apply the same rigor to their faith-based systems of thought."
"This has always been baffling. A scientific model gets revised by an incremental amount when some piece of new data emerges and they seize upon the revision and declare: "A-HA! Busted!! "Science" changed an answer! That means it had the wrong answer before! Ergo, Science is wrong!"
But point out the legions of "inconsistencies" within religion (or its ubiquitous logic-failures) and "Well, that's a matter of faith!"
The human mind's capacity to accommodate cognitive dissonance may turn out to be infinite."
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All-TigerNet [12098]
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What's even more mind blowing
Jul 1, 2015, 8:19 AM
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Is the creationists can't see that if evolution is wrong and homosexuality is wrong then God made a mistake when he made gay people gay.
And being gay IS NOT a personal choice so don't try that.
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Oculus Spirit [93691]
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Not exactly.***
Jul 1, 2015, 8:43 AM
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CU Medallion [60239]
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too bad God didn't make us all as smart as you
Jul 1, 2015, 8:46 AM
[ in reply to What's even more mind blowing ] |
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enlightened folks.
That's obviously His biggest mistake.
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Rock Defender [54]
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It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about
Jul 1, 2015, 9:03 AM
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your upbringing and environment. If you grow up around creationists, you are more likely to be a creationist.
You don't have to be an expert to look at the evidence and see what is happening.
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Heisman Winner [111731]
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Re: It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about
Jul 1, 2015, 11:47 AM
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unfortunately they are out-breeding us
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Legend [15749]
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Come on. You could put a picture of students in public
Jul 2, 2015, 11:42 AM
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school in that frame and imply the same thing. Or a parent scolding her child for hitting someone.
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Heisman Winner [111731]
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Re: Come on. You could put a picture of students in public
Jul 3, 2015, 5:04 PM
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why not a mother teaching her children that dragons and wizards are real?
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All-In [28802]
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Are people really convinced of evolution by the evidence?
Jul 1, 2015, 12:36 PM
[ in reply to It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about ] |
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Because I'm pretty sure that most people just tip their hate to the evidence presented by people they take to have authority, and that what they believe is just as much due to "upbringing and environment" as you think creationists' belief is.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Are people really convinced of evolution by the evidence?
Jul 1, 2015, 1:11 PM
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Sure and that is true for most scientific truths we know. Most people don't dive into the evidence for themselves to figure it all out, it's simply not practicle. We use heuristics all the time to determine what to believe. It's reasonable to believe the curriculum you learn in school without fact checking every single thing.
> Are people really convinced of evolution by the evidence?
I'd love to know the breakdown here myself, as it's a very interesting question. It's rare in the south, but a lot of schools teach evolution in class. So there are good number of people on both sides of this.
I personally grew up in a christian environment (not necessarily fully blown creationist) so it was indeed the evidence for evolution (and lack-thereof for creationism) that convinced me.
The difference here is that when someone claims that we evolved over time through natural selection, it can be easily backed up with empirical evidence. We have mountains of data and studies that support this claim.
When someone claims we were created as recently as 6,000 years ago we can easily refute that claim with the aforementioned evidence.
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All-In [40941]
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no, God snapped his fingers 6000 years ago
Jul 3, 2015, 3:43 PM
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and just made everything look older. If he can snap his fingers and create the heavens and the earth, he darn sure can make it look like whatever he wants to
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CU Guru [1878]
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All-In [28802]
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Yes, he's just using "creationism" a little sloppily***
Jul 1, 2015, 3:03 PM
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Oculus Spirit [81925]
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Well the media has turned "Creationist" into someone who
Jul 1, 2015, 3:11 PM
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is a Young Earth Creationism believer.
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Rock Defender [54]
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All-In [25834]
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Re: Isn't it possible to believe in evolution and creation?
Jul 1, 2015, 4:35 PM
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"in a week" in eternity may be billions of years. If you try and measure eternity, God's time, and there is no end to time, what is time and how is it measured?
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Isn't it possible to believe in evolution and creation?
Jul 1, 2015, 4:39 PM
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Is there any reason for me to believe that a "day" or "week" in biblical times is not the same as it is today? I don't think there is any indication that it wasn't supposed to be the same.
Therefore, it is incompatible with contemporary evidence that the earth was created over billions of years and not in a week.
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Legend [17918]
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Actually, according to the Bible Earth was created in 7 day
Jul 1, 2015, 5:56 PM
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Literally, it says, "There was evening and there was morning, the _________ day." You see this with each day of the created order. Further evidence that the Bible intends for it to understood as seven (7) days of creation is found in Exodus and the Ten Commandments. Exodus 20:11; "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the Earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day and made it holy."
Now, I am a Creationist but I do not believe that the Earth was created 6,000 years ago. It is obviously much older than that. I know that there "theologians" are their own biggest enemy on this matter. However, when I read Genesis I never see where it states HOW LONG Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden and, in my estimation, it is not reasonable to say it was only long enough for the Earth to be 6,000 years old.
Just my opinion.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Actually, according to the Bible Earth was created in 7 day
Jul 1, 2015, 9:05 PM
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Interesting, I don't recall the exact details but I don't remember it stating exactly how long Adam and Eve were in the garden. So I suppose that would allow for a long time.
What bugs me is, where do dinosaurs play a role in all of this? Fossil record shows they existed LONG before humans and before most of the kinds of living animals we see today evolved. How could this possibly be compatible with the creation account? Even if the adam and eve story were true, it seems like a lot of things are being left out.
Honest question, not trying to be a ####.
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Legend [17918]
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Good question
Jul 2, 2015, 9:38 AM
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And I do not have an answer on why the fossil records are what they are. However, I do understand that fossils themselves are not formed by something simply dying and falling over on the ground until someday it is covered and preserved. And how do we know what a man would do with a family member or "tribe" member when they died? Did they bury them, or burn them? If buried, how deep? If burned, there would be no fossil record of them. But certainly, mankind in those days did not just leave another lying where he fell anymore than we do. And for the straggler, do you realize how exponentially high the odds are against fossilization of a straggler?
There are too many variables in the difference in how the species lived to answer your question on the fossil record for me. And because we do not find a human skeleton beside a dinosaur does not scare me from my faith anymore than a scientist who believed in a black hole though he could not prove it in his day.
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Good question
Jul 2, 2015, 9:50 AM
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> And I do not have an answer on why the fossil records are what they are.
> And because we do not find a human skeleton beside a dinosaur does not scare me from my faith anymore than a scientist who believed in a black hole though he could not prove it in his day.
I respect your opinion, so please don't think I don't, just want to continue the friendly debate. The fossil record shows a very clear progression from simple forms of life (in older layers) to very complex forms of life (in the most recent layers).
Furthermore, there has never been a single fossil found that was "out of order". I.E, we don't see rabbit fossils in the precambrian or humans next to dinosaurs.
So is it not reasonable for me to conclude that we simply evolved over time (as the fossil record clearly shows) and that the creation story is simply incorrect? Btw, I'm not trying to tell you what to believe, i'm just trying to show you my logic on the subject.
I'm just trying to follow the evidence here and to me it seems very clear what happened.
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All-In [40941]
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All-In [25834]
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Re: It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about
Jul 1, 2015, 4:31 PM
[ in reply to It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about ] |
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You sure are obsessed with the God didn't create the universe. Who are you trying to convince? Yourself or Christians? Let me give you a heads up. Nothing you post here or anywhere else is going to convince a Christian who believes that the Bible is the innerant word of God that God is not the Creator of the universe. So, all of the evolutionist theory you want to believe still boils down to the fact that somehing can be created from nothing. Try working on that fact and when you have it figured out, get back to me.
Message was edited by: junk yard tiger®
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about
Jul 1, 2015, 4:45 PM
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> You sure are obsessed with the God didn't create the universe
Um hi... welcome to the discussion about evolution. The point is to discuss it's merits, not religion but it inevitably gets interjected because it doesn't agree with a religious person's ideology. So here we are.
> Who are you trying to convince? Yourself or Christians? Let me give you a heads up. Nothing you post here or anywhere else is going to convince a Christian who believes that the Bible is the innerant word of God that God is not the Creator of the universe.
You are probably correct and that is sad. Last I checked this was a political and religion forum so it's kind of the whole point to discuss this sort of thing.
> So, all of the evolutionist theory you want to believe still boils down to the fact that nothing can be created from nothing.
You are mistaken. The theory of evolution has absolutely ZERO to do with the origin of life. It only describes how it has changed over time. I think you are referring to abiogenesis or maybe even the big bang, i'm not sure.
> Try working on that fact and when you have it figured out, get back to me.
Again, wether or not nothing can come from nothing remains to be seen. However, it has no bearing on the theory of evolution, they are completely separate things.
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All-In [25834]
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Re: It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about
Jul 2, 2015, 9:38 AM
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"Again, wether or not nothing can come from nothing remains to be seen. However, it has no bearing on the theory of evolution, they are completely separate things."
How can they be completely separate things? From the instant plants and animals came into existence, according to evolution theory, they started adapting and changing (evolving). For something to evolve, it had to start the process at what point? So, again, which came first, the chicken or the egg? One is necessary for the other to exist. So, how do you get something from nothing? You don't. So how did creation begin? Again, Without something(creation) there could be no evolution. Once,you or someone else can explain creating something from absolutely nothing, then we can discuss evolution. Yes, evolution will always come back to creation. How can it not?
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about
Jul 2, 2015, 11:24 AM
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> How can they be completely separate things?
To put it simply, evolution explains how animals evolve over time, it does not explain (or even attempt to explain) the origin of life. That would be abiogenesis, creation or even aliens planting life here. They are simply two different subjects. You can have any mixture of those.
They are related concepts in that they are describing life, but evolution has nothing to do with how it all got started.
> For something to evolve, it had to start the process at what point?
Of course life had to start somewhere, but that is not in the realm of evolution. We don't have a difinitive answer as to how that happened yet. From the evidence it does appear that life arose from non-life (which is not nothing btw).
> So, how do you get something from nothing? You don't. So how did creation begin?
Nobody is saying life came from nothing. They are saying that it arose from non-life though.
> Again, Without something(creation) there could be no evolution.
You are correct, but something did happen and we did evolve.
> Once,you or someone else can explain creating something from absolutely nothing, then we can discuss evolution. Yes, evolution will always come back to creation. How can it not?
Hopefully the above explain why this assertion is false. You can have evolution regardless of how it initially started. Evolution does not depend on us explaining where life started.
Also, I must disabuse you of the idea that scientists say life started from "nothing". When you break it down, we are made of naturally occurring molecules and elements that you can find all over the earth. Why would it be impossible for those to arrange themselves into extremely simple lifeforms that eventually evolve into what we see today?
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All-In [40941]
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110%er [7238]
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I was an Atheist until...
Jul 5, 2015, 3:33 AM
[ in reply to It has very little to do with intelligence and is more about ] |
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I give science credit. Probably more credit than it deserves, but science doesn't ask for credit. It ask only for logic and reason.
On matters of creation vs evolution I give science a big credit on explaining the physical properties of matter, gases, and energy that formed what we call our solar system. Yet this does not rule out the possibility or probability of their being a God or supreme being. So there's that question. Also, I asked myself where the frontiers of space end? The answer was simple, that space to the best of our knowledge is infinite which means that eternity is a possibility.
What does evolution / science not answer? Science explains "HOW" we got here. It does NOT explain "WHY" we are here. If we are here by mere coincidence then we are in essence a giant accident. Which would mean that life is completely pointless and we have no purpose to our existence with the exception of extinction. Yet, we as a species are naturally born with a will to survive. Isn't that amazing? That didn't evolve into human nature. It's always been there. Otherwise the human race would have went extinct in the beginning.
So far we are the only planet that we are aware of that has intelligent life on it. We are the only species that has a moral conscience of right and wrong. Dog is man's best friend and if your dog poops on the carpet or chews up the pillows the dog is unaware of any wrong doing. Well, until the master shows some sort of emotion which draws a reactionary response from the dog.
Apes, Gorillas, and Chimpanzee know only one thing... Survival. They do not feel guilt, remorse, or sadness. That's only in the movies. Speaking of Gorillas. There have been cases reported of human beings being raised by Gorillas in remote parts of South America with absolutely zero human interaction until their discovery. Upon discovery it is noted that the human still has a moral sense of right and wrong. The moral sense of right and wrong is not taught. We are naturally born with it.
Another credit I give to science is the ability to generate technology. Some technology can predict the weather patters up to 2 weeks in advance. Yet, the Bible is the only book to predict the affairs of mankind up to 8000 years in advance. When I say Bible I include the Torah in that as well. The Qur'an cannot claim such foresight. Newton's Law, Einstein's Thesis, The Theory of Relativity, or even Darwin's Theory cannot predict the affairs of mankind that far in advance. An aspect of human beings that cannot be controlled no matter how hard one tries to govern it.
If the Bible has been correct about so many things then it should cause one to question the probability of there being a God.
Message was edited by: ChestyPuller0311®
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: I was an Atheist until...
Jul 5, 2015, 7:53 AM
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Hey Chesty, just want to give my rebuttal here, again not trying to be a jerk, just keeping up the friendly debate.
> I give science credit. Probably more credit than it deserves, but science doesn't ask for credit. It ask only for logic and reason.
Agreed
>On matters of creation vs evolution I give science a big credit on explaining the physical properties of matter, gases, and energy that formed what we call our solar system. Yet this does not rule out the possibility or probability of their being a God or supreme being. So there's that question. Also, I asked myself where the frontiers of space end? The answer was simple, that space to the best of our knowledge is infinite which means that eternity is a possibility.
Again agreed. Science does not rule out the possibility of god. I'm not sure what you mean by infinite though, currently science doesn't believe space is infinite.
>What does evolution / science not answer? Science explains "HOW" we got here. It does NOT explain "WHY" we are here. If we are here by mere coincidence then we are in essence a giant accident. Which would mean that life is completely pointless and we have no purpose to our existence with the exception of extinction.
This bothered me at first too. But really, there is no rule that states there has to be a "why". Maybe we simply are here and that is that.
> Yet, we as a species are naturally born with a will to survive. Isn't that amazing? That didn't evolve into human nature. It's always been there. Otherwise the human race would have went extinct in the beginning.
Well of course we have the will to survive. When you are looking at this in the context of evolution, which animal do you think would have the highest chance to survive, the one that has an innate instinct to survive or one that doesn't? This is easily explainable because it's a highly favorable trait that evolution would select for.
> So far we are the only planet that we are aware of that has intelligent life on it. We are the only species that has a moral conscience of right and wrong.
Not true. Many animals including dogs, dolphins and elephants have concepts of right and wrong and fairness.
> Dog is man's best friend and if your dog poops on the carpet or chews up the pillows the dog is unaware of any wrong doing. Well, until the master shows some sort of emotion which draws a reactionary response from the dog.
Funny you mentioned Dogs. Did you know they didn't exists at all not too many generations ago? Humans domesticated wolves and artificially selected for the breeds we see to today. Isn't it quite amazing how much a species can change in just a few thousand years? Imagine what could happen over millions and billions of years.
> Apes, Gorillas, and Chimpanzee know only one thing... Survival. They do not feel guilt, remorse, or sadness. That's only in the movies.
Absolutely not true. This is a very interesting subject that I think you'll find amazing. Checkout some documentaries on the subject. You'll be surprised just how human-like these animals are.
> Speaking of Gorillas. There have been cases reported of human beings being raised by Gorillas in remote parts of South America with absolutely zero human interaction until their discovery. Upon discovery it is noted that the human still has a moral sense of right and wrong. The moral sense of right and wrong is not taught. We are naturally born with it.
I agree that this is amazing. But how is the natural sense of right and wrong any different from other animal instincts that they are born with. This is still easily explainable as it's a highly beneficial trait to select for.
>Another credit I give to science is the ability to generate technology. Some technology can predict the weather patters up to 2 weeks in advance. Yet, the Bible is the only book to predict the affairs of mankind up to 8000 years in advance.
I'm not saying your wrong, but what are some examples of this?
>When I say Bible I include the Torah in that as well. The Qur'an cannot claim such foresight. Newton's Law, Einstein's Thesis, The Theory of Relativity, or even Darwin's Theory cannot predict the affairs of mankind that far in advance. An aspect of human beings that cannot be controlled no matter how hard one tries to govern it.
>If the Bible has been correct about so many things then it should cause one to question the probability of there being a God.
The bible does get many things right, I'm not arguing that whatsoever. However, what if there was a single error in the bible. Would that not, by definition, make it fallible?
Check it out for yourself. There is an internal contradiction in just the first 2 chapters of the bible.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/accounts.html
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I was an Atheist until...
Jul 5, 2015, 10:01 AM
[ in reply to Re: I was an Atheist until... ] |
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Those verses were mistranslated to the English. I've questioned Genesis in my past.
2:19 is more accurately "had formed" instead of "formed."
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I was an Atheist until...
Jul 5, 2015, 10:12 AM
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That site you posted is nothing more than making a mockery of the Bible. There are better sources that speak of contradictions.
Taking what the skeptics annotated bible says as truth would be like me believing everything I read on dailykos. LOL
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: I was an Atheist until...
Jul 5, 2015, 11:16 AM
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> That site you posted is nothing more than making a mockery of the Bible.
Fair enough.
> There are better sources that speak of contradictions.
So you agree that there are contradictions?
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I was an Atheist until...
Jul 5, 2015, 11:23 AM
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As far as translations, yes there are contradictions.
I believe the contradictions(at least the ones I've seen) can be explained when examining original texts etc
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: I was an Atheist until...
Jul 5, 2015, 11:24 AM
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So in essence, we can't trust any of the translated versions no?
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I was an Atheist until...
Jul 5, 2015, 11:40 AM
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I don't know that we should say "not trust " because I believe anything written by many men, over thousands of years, translated many times will have errors and I believe most logical thinking people would agree with that.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: I was an Atheist until...
Jul 5, 2015, 11:15 AM
[ in reply to Re: I was an Atheist until... ] |
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ok...
So let's say you are correct and it was indeed mistranslated. We aren't even past the 2nd version and we can't trust our translated version of the Bible? Is that what you're telling me?
Are we expected to study hebrew and know all the exact translations? How am I to know which things were and were not translated correctly.
Also, you know what happens next right? I'm going to point out the next error and you will attempt to rationalize it and this would happen over and over again.
There are both internal and external errors in the bible. I'm happy to keep going if you'd like.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I was an Atheist until...
Jul 5, 2015, 11:24 AM
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To point out, one of our translations, the NIV has exactly what I said..."had formed."
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I was an Atheist until...
Jul 5, 2015, 11:38 AM
[ in reply to Re: I was an Atheist until... ] |
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> ok...
>
> So let's say you are correct and it was indeed
> mistranslated. We aren't even past the 2nd version
> and we can't trust our translated version of the
> Bible? Is that what you're telling me?
>
> Are we expected to study hebrew and know all the
> exact translations? How am I to know which things
> were and were not translated correctly.
>
> Also, you know what happens next right? I'm going to
> point out the next error and you will attempt to
> rationalize it and this would happen over and over
> again.
>
> There are both internal and external errors in the
> bible. I'm happy to keep going if you'd like.
My post was about Genesis and that site you posted.
I clearly said I had questions about Genesis 1 and 2 as well.
But, your advice should go for you as well. No matter how I "rationalize" it, you'll believe what you believe just as I do. Funny how that works eh?
??
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I was an Atheist until...
Jul 5, 2015, 11:46 AM
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But I will say I "don't trust" many of the men/ women that preach the Bible.
Not because they're trying to mislead etc but because many don't have a clue what they're preaching.
Hell being one I don't trust them on. I've heard it claimed hell fire was taught in the OLD Testament in certain books/ verses etc. But it wasn't. They equated a common grave to hell.
To answer your question, no I don't think everyone should learn Hebrew but a Pastor should.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: I was an Atheist until...
Jul 5, 2015, 12:11 PM
[ in reply to Re: I was an Atheist until... ] |
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> But, your advice should go for you as well. No matter how I "rationalize" it, you'll believe what you believe just as I do. Funny how that works eh?
No actually it's not true. I'm ok with being wrong because it means that I am learning something. I'm not perfect of course but I try to only believe things that are verifiable and fact based.
If you poke a hole in my beliefs I will consider them for sure and if I am in error, then ok, I update my beliefs.
I'm not accusing you in particular of this, as you clearly seems to have a critical mind. But you'll find that religious people (in general) are not willing to challenge there own belief systems as much as non-religious people are.
If your belief system is correct, then you should have ZERO problem challenging it. God wouldn't disappear in a puff of logic if he was real and the bible is true right? Why then are people so opposed to discussing their beliefs?
I think it's because we innately feel threatened when our beliefs are challenged regardless of their truth. In my opinion though, it's hard to justify holding on to a belief that you can't back up.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I was an Atheist until...
Jul 5, 2015, 12:23 PM
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We agree 100%
My wife and I often describe ourselves as agnostic but "doubting Thomas " is probably more accurate.
I believe in God or some sort of higher being but constantly have questions. My wife and I often sit and discuss these questions.
I have found that I can't discuss my thoughts with religious people. I've been told "Billy Graham believes it, so you should too." Just one example of some off the wall crap that has been thrown at me
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I was an Atheist until...
Jul 5, 2015, 12:37 PM
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I don't know what made me think of this but on more than one occasion I've been asked "have you ever seen God on satellite or radar?"
No, but I've seen many things that the ordinary person wouldn't think I'd see.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: I was an Atheist until...
Jul 5, 2015, 12:47 PM
[ in reply to Re: I was an Atheist until... ] |
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No worries. I must have misinterpreted something you said along the way.
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All-TigerNet [12098]
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It's only a mistake if you're a queer hating creationist
Jul 1, 2015, 9:04 AM
[ in reply to too bad God didn't make us all as smart as you ] |
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I could have worded it better I guess - God didn't make the mistake the young earth homophobes do
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: It's only a mistake if you're a queer hating creationist
Jul 1, 2015, 9:16 AM
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Hey man, let's go easy.
Being abrasive isn't going to change anyone's mind and it sure doesn't help science's image. I'm guilty of the same thing but let's try to have a cordial discussion.
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All-In [28802]
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From a scientific point of view, why does it matter?
Jul 1, 2015, 12:45 PM
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Facts are facts. Science isn't a rhetorical tool, right?
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: From a scientific point of view, why does it matter?
Jul 1, 2015, 1:03 PM
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Indeed, facts are facts and the facts point to evolution by natural selection.
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Heisman Winner [111731]
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Re: From a scientific point of view, why does it matter?
Jul 4, 2015, 12:00 PM
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bbbut the bible says.
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All-In [28802]
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All-In [28802]
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Holy non-sequitur
Jul 1, 2015, 12:33 PM
[ in reply to What's even more mind blowing ] |
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I'm really not even sure why it is you think that evolution and the status of homosexuality have anything to do with each other. But have you ever heard of the concept of "sin?" Because, if you have, then you know that Christians believe that our nature is sinful. Following our sinful nature separates us from God, but the Christian conversion of nature is through identification/ communion with Jesus. Whatever other identities we might have are subordinated to our identity as a Christian.
And without getting into where sin comes from, I'd just point out that the existence of homosexuality isn't a special case of sinfulness. If you think that "God made a mistake when he made gay people gay," then you should also think that God made a mistake when he made all of us sinful.
This gets at what seems to be your assumption that whatever natural desires we have constitute an identity that can't be questioned, or that can't be subordinated to a more comprehensive identity. Somebody who's attracted to somebody of the same sex doesn't have to act on their attraction, which would mean that their homosexual desire doesn't constitute a "gay" sexual identity as we've currently constructed it. Similarly, somebody who's attracted to the opposite sex doesn't have to act on that attraction, meaning that the "straight" identity we've constructed is also shaped by other identities. The point is, sexual desire doesn't have to be supreme, and that the identities we construct around that desire (gay, straight, or otherwise) aren't entirely objective facts of nature. So God didn't "make gay people gay" any more than he created any other social/ political identity. He might have created us with certain desires and proclivities, but it's up to us to worship God with what we're given.
Or, you could just ignore all of this, and point out that we all have desires that we don't indulge, so it simply doesn't matter whether homosexual desire is innate. When people say that "being gay is a choice," then, what they might mean is that nothing's forcing a person who's attracted to somebody of the same sex to act on that attraction.
I'm still trying to figure out what you think evolution has to do with all of this. Maybe you think chalking up sexual identity to evolution gives God a pass for the existence of homosexuality. But believing something like that sure does diminish God, and I don't know how you'd claim that sexuality is morally meaningful at all if all there was to it was evolutionary adaptation.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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God was just super testing gay people
Jul 1, 2015, 1:02 PM
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It's similar to what he does with Muslims in the Middle East. I'm going to make it almost impossible for you to succeed, and if you fail, you're going to hell. Awesome! That's real love.
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CU Medallion [54758]
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is that the same thing as testing super-gay people?
Jul 1, 2015, 1:30 PM
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Question 1: What was Elizabeth Taylor wearing at the Academy Awards in 1961?
Answer:___________________________________
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Oculus Spirit [81078]
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Oculus Spirit [93691]
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You are confusing God with Saban...
Jul 1, 2015, 1:33 PM
[ in reply to God was just super testing gay people ] |
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I mean Satan. God made man perfect. Satan took God's perfect will and altered it. Man took God's perfect will and altered it but it altered him too. Now man is stuck with just one way out. You've heard this before so I'm not going to bore you with the story of Christ who died to reconcile you to God. 
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: You are confusing God with Saban...
Jul 1, 2015, 1:45 PM
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Didn't God know this would happen? That seems like a huge oversight to me...
If you knew going into it that people will be created imperfectly and would end up in eternal torment, that doesn't seem like the actions of a benevolent being.
If god created EVERYTHING then he knew evil would be part of it. There is no logical way out of that argument. You can say Satan or humans created evil.. well ok.. but who created both of them knowing full well what would happen?
How do you justify that?
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All-In [26968]
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Do you enjoy living? Are you glad you're alive?
Jul 1, 2015, 1:48 PM
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If you answered yes, there's justification enough.
If you'd rather not have lived, then I guess you could be upset at what God did.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Do you enjoy living? Are you glad you're alive?
Jul 1, 2015, 1:50 PM
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> If you answered yes, there's justification enough.
> If you'd rather not have lived, then I guess you could be upset at what God did.
First off, way to not answer the question.
My enjoyment of life is justification for the evil that exists in the world?
Did you just say that it is justifiable for something like ISIS to exist because I enjoy my life?
Please excuse me what I say, what the heck are you talking about?
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All-In [26968]
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You asked how to justify the fact that God
Jul 1, 2015, 1:54 PM
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made all this. I found it a curious question for someone to ask who has been given the grand opportunity to, well, exist.
If there were no evil, there would be no you. Would you rather not exist in a universe in which there is no evil?
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: You asked how to justify the fact that God
Jul 1, 2015, 1:58 PM
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>You asked how to justify the fact that God made all this. I found it a curious question for someone to ask who has been given the grand opportunity to, well, exist.
No, I asked how you can justify him creating a universe that contained evil. Why is that a curious question to ask? Is it not perfectly logical for a being in an imperfect world to ask why it's imperfect?
>If there were no evil, there would be no you. Would you rather not exist in a universe in which there is no evil?
So you are saying evil HAS to exist? A few questions:
1.) Um.. why?
2.) Does heaven contain evil? If not, why couldn't everything be created this perfectly?
3.) You are saying that god can't make a universe free of evil? Not sure what to think of that.
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All-In [26968]
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Of course everything could be perfect.
Jul 1, 2015, 2:07 PM
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In fact, for infinite period of time prior to the creation of the earth, it was.
God loved us enough to give us an opportunity to exist, despite the fact that He knew that we would eventually introduce evil into the world. He loved us enough to give us a chance to, not only exist, but exist as He exists, perfect and eternal. And He even loved enough to do all the work for us.
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All-In [26968]
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How could I reject such unfathomable love?
Jul 1, 2015, 2:09 PM
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If I did, I would be deserving of so much worse than hell.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: How could I reject such unfathomable love?
Jul 1, 2015, 2:14 PM
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You make it sounds like it's 100% crystal clear that this choice even exits? Where do I need to look to find such evidence? The bible doesn't even make it past the 2nd chapter before giving us an internal error.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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He just does more work for some than others
Jul 1, 2015, 2:10 PM
[ in reply to Of course everything could be perfect. ] |
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It's much easier for Prod to make it in to Heaven than little Saul Silversteen. Looks like God did the heavy lifting for you, while Saul only gets into heaven by turning his back on his parents, faith, and community.
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All-In [28802]
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How do you figure?
Jul 1, 2015, 2:23 PM
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That sounds like a personal or cultural valuation that isn't necessarily true. It might be the case, as Kierkegaard seemed to think, that it's harder to have an authentic faith in Christendom than it is for people who have a starker kind of decision to make.
And, of course, it's not as if there isn't a history of sin that brought people to the place of separation from God that they're born into. In fact, everybody is born into a sinful context that separates them from God, and it's only through the grace God gives that we're in any way freed from that context. But if we feel like we're born into a blessed context, then that should also motivate us even more so to be "salt and light."
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: How do you figure?
Jul 1, 2015, 2:28 PM
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but again, you are glossing over the fact that it's extremely difficult, and thus, unfair for MOST people in the world to get into heaven if they grow up in another religion.
How difficult would it be for you to switch religions? Probably pretty hard right? Well it's easy for you to claim grace when you were most likely simply born into this situation. Why are you so special over the child who is born to muslim parents?
Sounds to me as if religion is just a cultural phenomena and you happen to be in the Christian one. There is no other significance to it outside of that. THAT makes crystal clear sense and we don't have to try to justify when one small group is special and others are not.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Lots of words, no meaning
Jul 1, 2015, 2:32 PM
[ in reply to How do you figure? ] |
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If you were laying down money, who would you bet on to get to heaven little Johnny born in South Carolina to 2 devoutly Christian parents. Or little Saul, born in Jerusalem to 2 devoutly Jewish parents. I know where my money would sit.
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All-In [28802]
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Disagreeing doesn't mean meaningless
Jul 1, 2015, 3:19 PM
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Anyway, while I might expect somebody born into a (post) Christian context is more likely to end up a Christian, I also think that there are certain difficulties presented by our culture that aren't faced in a Jewish context. One of those difficulties is that we might think we're Christians just because it's in the air- Flannery O'Connor said the south was "Christ haunted," which doesn't exactly mean Christian.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Which still doesn't answer the fundamental question
Jul 1, 2015, 6:05 PM
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How can an all loving, all knowing, all powerful God, send children he knew in the womb to an almost certain eternity in hell?
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All-In [28802]
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Because it isn't "almost certain"
Jul 2, 2015, 2:33 PM
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I agree that there are certain situations people can be born into that don't seem fair, and of course that bothers me too. But, for one, I look at every good thing a blessing rather than believing that I deserve good things. For another, I think certain truths are more apparent in non-Christian or post-Christian cultures than they are in Christiandom. It's not as if non-Christians or post-Christians don't have seeds of the truth.
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Oculus Spirit [93691]
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What is a post-Christian?***
Jul 3, 2015, 11:24 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93691]
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This really bothered me at one time.
Jul 3, 2015, 5:36 PM
[ in reply to Which still doesn't answer the fundamental question ] |
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It occurred to me that my perspective was my problem. I lacked the ability to see temporal events from an eternal position. That was my first clue. I didn't have the right mind.
Assuming that God is not governed by time we understand that He knows both ends better than we know the present. The second clue is that knowing that one will not accept and receive the good news is to us predestination. I firmly believe The Apostle Paul's opinion on predestination.
Ephesians 1
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.'
Understanding that is understand how this world of those of free will plays out without interference from God. When or where one is born is insignificant in the light of that knowledge. Those predestined are 'chosen,' if we consider it from the understand of an eternal being and we have the mind of Christ. The Chosen certainly have that.
1 Corinthians 2:16
'For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.'
I can't speak for those who were not chosen. They should take that up with Him.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Of course everything could be perfect.
Jul 1, 2015, 2:13 PM
[ in reply to Of course everything could be perfect. ] |
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It seems like you are just glossing over the whole evil and eternal torment part.
By all account, most people in the world are not christians and I think you would agree that a good percentage of those who claim to be christians still won't make it into heaven. This means that the majority of people would end up in hell in this "loving" environment you are describing.
Where is the love in that? What need was there for those people to exist? Why not just create the ones that he knew would make it to heaven?
There are way too many baffling questions to even consider believing something like this. You know what's even crazier? When you get out from under religion (not just christianity btw) all of these silly questions go away and everything makes a lot more sense. You don't find yourself trying to justify the unjustifiable.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Of course everything could be perfect.
Jul 4, 2015, 11:36 AM
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> It seems like you are just glossing over the whole
> evil and eternal torment part.
>
> By all account, most people in the world are not
> christians and I think you would agree that a good
> percentage of those who claim to be christians still
> won't make it into heaven. This means that the
> majority of people would end up in hell in this
> "loving" environment you are describing.
>
> Where is the love in that? What need was there for
> those people to exist? Why not just create the ones
> that he knew would make it to heaven?
>
> There are way too many baffling questions to even
> consider believing something like this. You know
> what's even crazier? When you get out from under
> religion (not just christianity btw) all of these
> silly questions go away and everything makes a lot
> more sense. You don't find yourself trying to justify
> the unjustifiable.
Good post. This is part of the reason I don't believe in an eternal hell. It doesn't make sense.
I find it odd that we wouldn't worship a man that burned his children yet we will bow down to a creator that burns millions of his children for billions of years, for eternity.
Our life span is what about 70 or so years? Yet will spend billions of years burning for sins committed in a 70 year span. Makes a lot of sense.
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Oculus Spirit [93691]
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I don't think people understand hell.
Jul 4, 2015, 3:59 PM
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To fully understand what hell is we must examine the reason for it's creation. The record of Satan's rebellion against God is found in Isaiah 14.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
This is misunderstood to mean that Lucifer was trying to dethrone God. It simply says that he wants to be his own God, have his own kingdom. All he was doing was having a will other than God's. He preferred himself over God. That's exactly what we do. We don't like his record of creation and challenge His very existence. We deny Him and everything about Him including the sacrifice of His precious Son on the Cross.
Satan's will was perverting a perfect existence so God created another existence. God created a place where He does not exist. In my opinion this is one of those parable type comparisons that were so well used in the New Testament. Knowing that our physical bodies will no longer contain our consciousness the writers use the term burning. The 'burning,' will not be a torture which God inflicts on man. It's simply what our existence will be without God's presence.
I wish this on no one. Fire can't describe the misery and trillions of years does not describe eternity for in eternity there is no time.
Add to that the torment that knowing one short moment on one's knees at Calvary's Cross in acknowledgement of the Lamb which is sacrificed there and His love for us would have prevented our circumstances. Having full understanding of eternity as an existence without time rather than an existence with unlimited time will turn up the thermostat too.
You don't have to do this. There's a was out. To show that God wasn't just being a spoiled brat who owns a swimming pool and demands everything His way He created a redeemable man. Man fell to Satan's perversions of the truth and his free will was exercised counter to God will. That's exactly what Satan did. Now man is seeking exactly what Satan was seeking, to be his own God.
Folks will get exactly what they want, a place where they are alone without the presence of God and they can have a kingdom in which they reign.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: I don't think people understand hell.
Jul 5, 2015, 8:04 AM
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On the contrary, I don't think you understand what is so awful about this concept.
I'm having a hard time thinking of anything that would justify eternal damnation and torture.
You say that there is a way out and people "get exactly what they want". Two things:
1. People are stupid. I'm stupid and you're stupid. I mean this half-jokingly but really think about it. We make very questionable decisions all the time that we regret. Are we really equipped to make decisions on enteral matters?
I suspect one explanation is that we are chosen and don't choose at all. Which to me makes it even worse that people are literally created for the sole purpose of going to hell. WOW. That I can't even begin to imagine.
2.You make it sound like there is a crystal clear choice of heaven and hell dangling right in front of people and that the majority of us are flipping off god and choosing hell. This is so not the case. Where is this clarity that you seem to have? You reference the bible but ignore anytime an inconsistency or blatant fallacy is pointed out in it.
If people aren't even aware that he exists, how can they possibly deserve eternal hell? And for the record, no, I don't know that he exists. I have never seen any evidence, outside of personal testimony that can't be backed up. Proof of god's existence wouldn't even hold up in a court of law. How then am I supposed to know for a crystal clear fact that he is even around?
> You don't have to do this. There's a was out. To show that God wasn't just being a spoiled brat who owns a swimming pool and demands everything His way He created a redeemable man. Man fell to Satan's perversions of the truth and his free will was exercised counter to God will. That's exactly what Satan did. Now man is seeking exactly what Satan was seeking, to be his own God.
> Folks will get exactly what they want, a place where they are alone without the presence of God and they can have a kingdom in which they reign
This is just utter nonsense. I'm not seeking my own kingdom without the presence of God. That makes no sense. If there is a god and he wants to know me, I'd love to really know. Trust me I've asked and prayed for YEARS on the subject. You know what the response always is? Absolutely nothing. I suspect the same happens to everyone else.
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Oculus Spirit [93691]
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A Bible parable explains this much better than I.
Jul 5, 2015, 12:40 PM
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Luke 16
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
We won't answer for others. We will stand alone before the Throne and give account for ourselves. The rich man lived under the law. He knew that he had not obeyed the law nor had he offered sacrifice under the law for atonement of his sin which was an acknowledgement of the coming Christ and His sacrifice. He did not claim ignorance, he thirsted for the presence of God and begged for relief.
When he was told there was no way he would get relief he did not impeach God for the fairness of his fate. He begged to return hoping to prevent others from his fate. This is a good example of what hell will be. His resistance of the truth during his times of opportunity led him to despair and acceptance of his fate.
When Christ died upon the cross He did not cry 'the flames, the flames,' He said, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me.
1. I am stupid. I only had to make one decision to secure eternity. You only have one decision to make to change your eternity. Deciding not to make a decision is a decision in itself.
2. If there isn't a clear voice from Heaven offering you a change of destiny you'll have to take that up with God. Control over that voice is above my paygrade.
I don't waste my time defending the Bible. It's like electricity, it doesn't matter if one believes it or not when they stick their finger in an outlet they react. I just take the insulation off the wire.
When one refuses to submit to God's will they are in the process of establishing their own kingdom. Your accusing a fake god of being unfaithful to fairness, unreasonable to create a world, fill it with free willed beings thereby giving them exactly what free-will has turned it into and withdrawing His presence is an prefect example of your establishment of a kingdom.
That's all Satan wanted. To decided for himself right from wrong. He refused to take God's judgment on right and wrong. He established his own moral laws and so does man. God sacrificed His Son to take man's judgement. It's free to us but it wasn't to Him.
I've had things go all wrong in my life. I usually pitched a fit and accused God of being unfaithful, without good judgement and unfair in His dealings with my situations. He did not move from His throne and was always there when I returned to the throne room. You've always had His attention, try looking in His throne room. There isn't enough space there for two thrones so leave yours behind.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: A Bible parable explains this much better than I.
Jul 5, 2015, 12:58 PM
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>1. I am stupid. I only had to make one decision to secure eternity. You only have one decision to make to change your eternity. Deciding not to make a decision is a decision in itself.
Again, I think you are not understanding my argument. With this statement you are claiming that I know there is a God and that I am simply rejecting his gift. This is not true. I do not not that he is there. I have never seen or heard from him.
If we are going by this logic then I have actively denied every other religion too and so have you. I'm sure there are countless religions that I haven't even heard of, am I choosing to reject all of those? There are many people who've never heard of christianity, that's the point here.
> 2. If there isn't a clear voice from Heaven offering you a change of destiny you'll have to take that up with God. Control over that voice is above my paygrade.
Ok sure but this is the entire point of the argument and you keep deflecting. I think it is completely unfair to not make the options crystal clear before handing out eternal hell. You seem to be ok with that and simply deflect to passages to justify it.
Honest question for you, not being a jerk here. Do you think that I am lying to about my knowledge of god or something? I and countless others say that they don't know if god exists because we've never had an interaction with him yet you keep throwing it back as if it is some choice that we are making.
What I mean is, sure it's a "choice" in the sense that I choose not to believe in Zeus or Buddah due to the lack of any reason to (i.e. no interaction or evidence for it). But it is not a choice in the sense you are putting it. You make it seem like i've spoken face to face with god himself and he presented me with the options of heaven or hell and I chose hell. I've heard nothing from god, i just hear from people like you making these wild claims and then you just throw your hands up and point to the bible when questioned.
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Oculus Spirit [93691]
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Re: A Bible parable explains this much better than I.
Jul 5, 2015, 2:16 PM
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As I said, I involved that passage of scripture because it explains that even if a man returns from the dead, which Christ did, folks wouldn't believe the truth. It was not my intent to throw anything in your face.
I honestly don't know what you believe. I'm not privy to another's thoughts. I know you've stated you don't believe in God. I know you've impeached the personality I've presented as God by saying the even the concept of hell is unfair. I've explained how the concept is fair twice on this forum and had no one give positive comments toward it.
It's as if I've dreamed the entire thing up even though it's exactly what the scripture describes but only uses fire to describe the absence of God, yet you continue to say you don't understand. Clearly, in your opinion, I've failed to describe it adequately. Sorry for my failure.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: A Bible parable explains this much better than I.
Jul 5, 2015, 4:53 PM
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> I've explained how the concept is fair twice on this forum and had no one give positive comments toward it.
You are not receiving positive comments, not because your comments are false per se, but that they do not in fact answer the questions. We basically ask why you think it's fair for something like hell to exist and then you say "here checkout this parable in the bible" that basically says that god sends people to hell, but never explains why.
Also, I've asked you several times if YOU think it's fair for something like hell to exist and would you be willing to send YOUR children there for any reason. I'm asking you what you think about the subject, I know what the bible says, i'm asking you what your opinion is.
Correct me if I'm wrong but i'm sensing that you have difficulty accepting this question and you think something along the lines of "yeah, I think that's a bit harsh but the bible does say it and god must have a very good reason for it so I'll go with that even though I don't understand it"
> It's as if I've dreamed the entire thing up even though it's exactly what the scripture describes but only uses fire to describe the absence of God, yet you continue to say you don't understand. Clearly, in your opinion, I've failed to describe it adequately. Sorry for my failure.
Here's the thing man, if you are going to use the bible to justify your beliefs, that is 100% cool, this is a free country and I would literally fight for your right to believe and practice any religion you want (except things that are harmful to others of course). However, if you are going to present it as evidence to others, then you should be able to tell us why we should believe it's true. Otherwise, it's not a very compelling case if you present it to someone who thinks it's fallible.
Remember, you are the one asserting the bible is true so you should be able to back up that assertion.
1 Peter 3:15 "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect"
And btw, I do commend you on the latter, you are always respectful and I do appreciate that.
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Oculus Spirit [93691]
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OK, here you go.
Jul 5, 2015, 7:01 PM
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IMO, since that's exactly what you asked for, time is defined as the period between events reoccurring events. Seconds, hours, spins of planets around their suns, one revolution of an electron or even the rotation of a sub-sub atomic particle around an location defined by only the particle's rotation. Without a physical presence there is no time and that occurrence is my definition of eternity.
God created this universe within eternity and established time so that an imperfect world could not exist forever. It has a finite beginning and a finite end thus a finite period of existance.
God never created a rock so big He couldn't lift it. He could but He doesn't subject Himself to anything including time. If He did then He wouldn't be The Supreme Being.
He views the past, present and future as one event. Knowing that even if all were exposed to The Truth of His Son's Sacrifice on Calvary's Cross some would reject the offer of the free gift. Who would turn down a million dollars if it were tax free, had no strings, required no collateral or repayment? Only one who did not believe he was really going to receive the money. They just wouldn't believe the offer and thus with their inaction be making him who had offered a liar.
It's the responsibility of God's Holy Spirit, or His working presence in this world, to make the offer of eternal life. Some may not get the offer but a God who sees past, present and future knows that it's all trivial.
From the perspective of the carnal/flesh mind it's called predestination. So yes, some are born with God knowing before the foundation of the world that they would not accept the gift. They are calling Him a liar when the refuse the million dollars tax free with no collateral and no repayment plan.
I can't offer the gift. If I could I would use a sales pitch with a money back guarantee and high pressure such as it's the last one on the market and everyone is wanting it. The truth is that most people, including Christians, want to work things out on their own. They believe they are so proficient at determining right from wrong that they can ride that fine line and make themselves acceptable to God. That fine line is at the foot of The Cross. Everybody on that one particular cross is perfect while the rest of us are stuck together on the other side.
Sorry I wasn't clear the last three times I tried to explain this.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: OK, here you go.
Jul 6, 2015, 9:28 AM
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I see what you are saying, and thanks for writing that reply.
I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. I have a really hard time grasping the fact that something is being offered here (eternal life) and yet it is surrounded by vagueness. It just seems like something this insanely important would be perfectly crystal clear given the stakes.
I don't know man, I do respect you and your opinion and I do love your passion but I just don't think this stuff has any substance behind it.
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Oculus Spirit [93691]
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