Replies: 87
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Rock Defender [54]
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Dems push for DC statehood
Apr 22, 2021, 11:09 AM
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All-In [26968]
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Sometimes I think we mistake disagreeing with
Apr 22, 2021, 11:18 AM
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disunity. Supporting even the most extreme things I disagree with doesn't mean someone isn't being "unifying" with me, as long as we agree to work respectfully with each other for the common good, while voting differently from each other where we disagree.
Now, if the President is speaking of his opponents in a demeaning way, or refusing to work with them (and maybe he is doing those things), then I would call that "disunifying".
"Unity" isn't "propose things I like, and don't propose things I don't like".
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Sometimes I think we mistake disagreeing with
Apr 22, 2021, 11:29 AM
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All-In [26968]
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I didn't say it was "OK"
Apr 22, 2021, 11:31 AM
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I said it wasn't "disunifying". That doesn't mean that I think the proposed/passed law is OK.
I don't think "does a majority of the country oppose it" should be a factor for legislators in their votes. I think the vote should be based on whether it is a good law.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: I didn't say it was "OK"
Apr 22, 2021, 11:37 AM
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Heisman Winner [138009]
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You are a supersalty hyperpartisan, unless you were
Apr 22, 2021, 11:39 AM
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criticizing Republicans for doing the same thing in 2016-18.
Hint: you weren't.
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All-In [26968]
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I don't think proposing or passing legislation is
Apr 22, 2021, 11:40 AM
[ in reply to Re: I didn't say it was "OK" ] |
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"thumbing a nose" at anybody.
I didn't say anyone "knew best". I said what I thought should be the decision point for a legislative vote.
If I said the things you said I said, then maybe I would make zero sense. But I didn't say them.
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All-In [42203]
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Re: I didn't say it was "OK"
Apr 22, 2021, 12:55 PM
[ in reply to Re: I didn't say it was "OK" ] |
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T3, who once said anything liberal or Dem was evil and he wouldn't dare be friends with anyone like that (and labels anything he disagrees with as liberal or Dem), is now asking where the unity is.
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110%er [5694]
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Re: I didn't say it was "OK"
Apr 22, 2021, 2:15 PM
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Are you mistaking him for me? LOL
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All-In [42203]
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Nope, not at all.
Apr 22, 2021, 3:20 PM
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I specifically recall my discussion with him. But getting you two mixed up isn't too hard: blindly partisan, poor grasp of political ideology, hateful towards anything you don't like or understand thus automatically labeling it "Dem" or "liberal," thinly-veiled racism, a disdain for democracy, and a love for a potential authoritarian state.
Did I cover it all?
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Nope, not at all.
Apr 22, 2021, 3:31 PM
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All-In [42203]
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Re: Nope, not at all.
Apr 22, 2021, 4:21 PM
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I get along with plenty of conservatives here. I get along with the honest, adult ones who have integrity and can disagree intelligently.
Swarley and I have disagreements. It doesn't get ugly or personal. He's an adult. He's intelligent. He doesn't hate people for being different than him.
I know that's hard to describe to you.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Nope, not at all.
Apr 22, 2021, 4:26 PM
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All-In [42203]
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Re: Nope, not at all.
Apr 22, 2021, 11:23 PM
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You, NC, Clemchem, and Mountaineers all behave like little fascists. I don't recall Mountaineers being racist, so I'll at least give him the benefit of the doubt--but not you other three. Your posts speak from themselves, like a whole thread that got deleted because of your racism.
Swarley is nowhere in the same stratosphere as you clowns.
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110%er [6402]
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Re: I didn't say it was "OK"
Apr 22, 2021, 11:41 AM
[ in reply to I didn't say it was "OK" ] |
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How in the world can it be a "good law" if the majority of the country opposes it? This is just trying to slam 'disunifying' stuff through like they did Obamacare. Was Justice Roberts' lie that a 'tax' is the same thing as a 'fine' make it 'good law', even though most people opposed it?
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All-In [26968]
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A majority of the country would oppose lots of laws
Apr 22, 2021, 11:42 AM
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I think would miraculously good for the country. The majority isn't always right.
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110%er [6402]
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Re: A majority of the country would oppose lots of laws
Apr 22, 2021, 11:46 AM
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Then what the h#ll is the point of electing 'representatives'? Just give us our own President for Life Xi and be done with it. What the people want be d#mned.
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All-In [26968]
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Noooo...it's the opposite. What you are proposing as
Apr 22, 2021, 2:14 PM
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the only right thing is a pure democracy. If the majority opinion were the only thing that mattered, then we would just all vote on every law.
Instead, we have this brilliant representative democracy, in which we choose people to make decisions in our stead.
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Starter [354]
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Re: A majority of the country would oppose lots of laws
Apr 22, 2021, 12:02 PM
[ in reply to A majority of the country would oppose lots of laws ] |
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Wow, now the right has completely abandoned democracy. They crave authoritarian dictators. They want their ideals promoted above a majority VOTE.
Woooooow
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Heisman Winner [138009]
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Isn't that how politics work?
Apr 22, 2021, 11:38 AM
[ in reply to Re: Sometimes I think we mistake disagreeing with ] |
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You wouldn't (and certainly didn't) give a fraction of a shit from 2016-18 when the GOP had all of Congress and the Executive office, and passed whatever they felt like, besides important things like healthcare reform (wow, turns out, it's complicated!), funding a stupid wall, etc.
Are you hung up on the claims of unity piece from Biden and other Dems? Is that what has your goat? As Prodigal said, you'll need to define "unity" then. If Republicans won't budge on an issue so Dems implement their policy based on legislative control, well...whatever. It's fascinating how Obama and Biden are "just partisan hacks that further divide the country", but the guy in between them was such a straight, fair shooter.
That's politics. Sucks for the minority party.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Isn't that how politics work?
Apr 22, 2021, 11:54 AM
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Heisman Winner [138009]
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So you've determined that Republicans had a mandate
Apr 22, 2021, 12:27 PM
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with their majority from 2016-18, but Democrats do not have a mandate currently, because their majority is smaller, thus, they shouldn't be using their majority to implement policy, because...reasons.
Good summary?
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Heisman Winner [119768]
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Prod, that is one steaming pile of horsechit
Apr 22, 2021, 11:39 AM
[ in reply to Sometimes I think we mistake disagreeing with ] |
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Do you not think Biden and the Dems are trying to destroy any chance of GOP election success going forward?
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All-In [26968]
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I dunno about that. But if they try or succeed in passing
Apr 22, 2021, 11:41 AM
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bad laws, then they will destroy election success for themselves, because the people will vote them out.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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That's why they're barricading themselves in DC with the
Apr 22, 2021, 11:42 AM
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National Guard as protection and importing new, better voters as fast as possible.
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All-In [34114]
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Dems are barricading themselves??
Apr 22, 2021, 12:35 PM
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Those idiots. What, do they really think there would ever be some kinda, I dunno, INSURRECTION?
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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That's what they seem to be pushing for everywhere but DC
Apr 22, 2021, 12:38 PM
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Almost as if they want civil unrest. They're protected though so it's OK.
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Rock Defender [54]
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All-In [34114]
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Re: Let’s see
Apr 22, 2021, 12:45 PM
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"Violent day": I assume you put this phrase in quotation marks in order to express your belief that it wasn't violent.
Let's just get that disagreement out of the way first. You actually think there wasn't violence? Let me know. Maybe you just never saw any actual video from the day.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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By the 2020 definition of peaceful protest it wasn't violent***
Apr 22, 2021, 12:48 PM
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All-In [34114]
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Lakebum says it was violent. How about you T3?***
Apr 22, 2021, 12:59 PM
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Lakebum says it was violent. How about you T3?***
Apr 22, 2021, 1:21 PM
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All-In [34114]
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Lakebum says it was violent. How about you T3?***
Apr 22, 2021, 4:10 PM
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All-In [34114]
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Lakebum says it was violent. How about you T3?***
Apr 22, 2021, 4:16 PM
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All-In [34114]
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Re: Lakebum says it was violent. How about you T3?***
Apr 22, 2021, 4:20 PM
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I can read. You referred to the “violent day” on Jan 6 when (you say) nobody was actually killed except a protester. You put "violent day" in quotation marks, which I took issue with because the quotation marks suggest it wasn't really violent. When I called you out on it, you doubled down.
It was a violent day, but you think it was a "violent day" in quotation marks but not REALLY a violent day.
Here's some more of the "violent day" for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DwRmcHl7vY
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Orange Blooded [4021]
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Hall of Famer [24481]
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Except this isn't about disagreeing on issues.
Apr 22, 2021, 12:23 PM
[ in reply to Sometimes I think we mistake disagreeing with ] |
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A non partisan can see that.
Trump's actions on border security were called racist. Are you now willing to call that merely disagreeing? Is voter security racist or disagreeing? Is gerrymandering partisan or merely disagreeing?
None of those three is like the others. One is an issue affecting everyone. One depends on the intent. One is a ploy to tilt the field towards a party. If you don't see the difference, and don't see into which of those court packing and DC statehood fits, you are seeing everything through partisan eyes.
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All-In [34114]
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Re: Except this isn't about disagreeing on issues.
Apr 22, 2021, 12:41 PM
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Great points because people spend more time arguing that the "other side" don't actually believe in their own political positions.
Trump's promises to build a big, beautiful, see-through, concrete wall: his detractors say it's because Trump is racist. That's not a counterargument. The counterargument is to address the proposal itself and say what you disagree about.
Voter security, same thing.
But I would say the same for the issues involving the makeup of the Supreme Court and DC statehood.
All of these issues can be explained in terms of why politician X or party X would be in favor, but that's not a disagreement over the issues themselves, that's just calling the other side a liar, or disingenuous, and that's the thing that prevents unity.
Let's disagree without accusing each other of bad motives.
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All-In [26968]
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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CU Medallion [56106]
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I think Democrats should drop the whole unity thing.
Apr 22, 2021, 11:53 AM
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Civility yes, unity no. The Republican party is completely intractable and the conservative base won't approve of compromise on any issue. They're gonna call Democrats radical zealots no matter what they propose, so they might as well go big.
Let's be honest, you don't really want Republicans to compromise with Biden to pass centrist legislation. You just want to complain about how Biden said stuff about unity and now he's doing all these wild and crazy liberal things, most of which are either cartoonish exaggerations (packing the court) or just flat out preposterous (flooding the borders with future Dem voters).
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110%er [6402]
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Re: I think Democrats should drop the whole unity thing.
Apr 22, 2021, 11:58 AM
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Let's be honest, you don't really want Republicans to compromise with Biden to pass centrist legislation.
Nothing Sniffy Joe's handlers are proposing is 'centrist', therefore no compromise is possible. Do you compromise with a guy who's robbing you to try to get him to only take half your money?
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CU Medallion [56106]
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Compromise isn't starting negotiations in the middle.
Apr 22, 2021, 12:12 PM
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You don't start haggling with your final offer. I think that's a big mistake Obama made with the ACA. He should've proposed something crazy and hoped the Republicans would come back with a proposal that looks like the ACA.
Of course even that doesn't work. In 2016 Republicans were like, "Obama won't nominate someone moderate to the Supreme Court, like Merrick Garland." And then he did and the GOP was like, "Oh. Well #### you anyway lololol."
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Rock Defender [54]
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Yes Garland is looking very moderate
Apr 22, 2021, 12:14 PM
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CU Medallion [56106]
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Rock Defender [54]
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With all due respect
Apr 22, 2021, 12:22 PM
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CU Medallion [56106]
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The more you pretend that Garland is a liberal firebrand
Apr 22, 2021, 12:23 PM
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the more you prove my point.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: The more you pretend that Garland is a liberal firebrand
Apr 22, 2021, 12:25 PM
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All-In [34114]
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Re: Yes Garland is looking very moderate
Apr 22, 2021, 12:30 PM
[ in reply to Yes Garland is looking very moderate ] |
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My gosh, investigating a police department? Garland is a crazy communist! Only one thing can be next: taking all of our private property in the name of the state! Wut?
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Hall of Famer [24481]
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Enough with the Merrick Garland. The congressional
Apr 22, 2021, 12:56 PM
[ in reply to Compromise isn't starting negotiations in the middle. ] |
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proceedures used to delay him were ones dems previously wanted for their own purposes. But regardless, lets put up a statue of him in front of the court house, and the pubs can put one up of Robert Bork - which is where all this started - and we can bow to them rather than invoking them in every other conversation, and stop playing Jews vs Palestinians on judges, pretending its the other guy's fault.
You raise some very good issues re civility vs unity. We clearly have neither, and one follows the other. I don't know where the line is, but I do know that the staggering number of EOs, which Biden had previously called actions of a "dictator" - maybe that's the 15th point of fascism - as well as the nature of many of them, is many steps away from unity. No president of his diminished capacity can know what is in that many EO's, so everyone understands that several left leaning groups wanted their agenda enacted by EO asap, and they got it. He signed what was put in front of him, as determined by special interests. That alone tells the other party that, "Its on."
No, Biden spoke 'unity' as written by his speech writers for campaign purposes, but there was clearly no thought ever given to that goal, and no intention to. It was never a goal, and is not now. You know it and I know it.
How to get there would be an interesting conversation, and you typically see both sides of an issue. I would start by saying that elected representatives have to stop seeing every issue in terms of how to frame it for votes and power, because that is by it's nature and intent divisive. But our representatives reflect who we are; they really do end up doing exactly what we want. So it starts with a values and goals change within individuals. And that will require something I don't think we want. I am not optimistic. I really do believe we are Rome falling from within.
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CU Medallion [56106]
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To be fair, it was in his inauguration speech.
Apr 22, 2021, 1:41 PM
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I ask every American to join me in this cause.
Uniting to fight the common foes we face:
Anger, resentment, hatred.
Extremism, lawlessness, violence.
Disease, joblessness, hopelessness.
With unity we can do great things. Important things.
We can right wrongs.
We can put people to work in good jobs.
We can teach our children in safe schools.
We can overcome this deadly virus.
We can reward work, rebuild the middle class, and make health care secure for all.
We can deliver racial justice.
We can make America, once again, the leading force for good in the world.
I know speaking of unity can sound to some like a foolish fantasy.
I know the forces that divide us are deep and they are real.
But I also know they are not new.
Our history has been a constant struggle between the American ideal that we are all created equal and the harsh, ugly reality that racism, nativism, fear, and demonization have long torn us apart.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2021/01/20/inaugural-address-by-president-joseph-r-biden-jr/
People may be tired of hearing about the SCOTUS vacancy in 2016, but it's relevant when we're having a "Dems won't compromise" conversation. My point wasn't about the seat being stolen, it was about Obama's attempt to appoint a compromise candidate that the GOP denied.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: To be fair, it was in his inauguration speech.
Apr 22, 2021, 1:48 PM
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110%er [5694]
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Re: To be fair, it was in his inauguration speech.
Apr 22, 2021, 2:24 PM
[ in reply to To be fair, it was in his inauguration speech. ] |
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It's complete bullchit to say foes of Biden/Dems are anger, resentment, hatred, lawlessness, violence when HIS PARTY IS ALL BUT ASKING FOR ALL OF THOSE.
Are you serious? Do you really think any of those items resonate with conservatives as legit?
Racial justice - fake issue gen'd by Demos to win votes Hopeless - there is none except that created by Dems along with the message that the gubment can get you out of hopelessness if you vote democrat Right wrongs - redistribute wealth from me to others that did not work for it Put people in good jobs - the gov't can take over and spend more money Teach children in safe schools - let safe be defined by teacher's unions so kids never return Health care secure - single payer system with gubment takeover ...
same old, same old.
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CU Medallion [56106]
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And this brings us back to my original post.
Apr 22, 2021, 2:32 PM
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The Republican party is completely intractable and the conservative base won't approve of compromise on any issue. They're gonna call Democrats radical zealots no matter what they propose.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Probably because Democrats are actually becoming radical
Apr 22, 2021, 3:14 PM
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zealots and have been for the past few years while their propaganda arm in the media keeps everyone busy knit picking everything Republicans do. They seem to behave like Bolsheviks wherever they get political power.
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CU Medallion [56106]
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I really appreciate you guys backing me up on this.
Apr 22, 2021, 4:07 PM
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See? Unity is possible!
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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If we could get you guys to critique the Democrat party
Apr 22, 2021, 4:16 PM
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and all of their insanity as hard as you do republicans, I think you'd find that unification would be fairly simple!
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Orange Blooded [4021]
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Re: If we could get you guys to critique the Democrat party
Apr 23, 2021, 7:51 AM
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And this is coming from the "MUST PROTECT DADDY" crowd of the last 4 years. Do you guys have any self awareness?
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Hall of Famer [24481]
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I believe and agree with everything you said in the
Apr 22, 2021, 10:12 PM
[ in reply to To be fair, it was in his inauguration speech. ] |
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paragraph you wrote under the photos. I know you meant it, and I agree .
It took Biden the time it took to sign all the EOs to show me he meant none of his words, however. Let's face it: within a few days he didn't even remember he said them. Can't blame him for his age related impairment, but even that - that he is there signing what a collection of interests tell him to sign- tells us where we are.
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All-In [42203]
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Re: I think Democrats should drop the whole unity thing.
Apr 22, 2021, 12:25 PM
[ in reply to I think Democrats should drop the whole unity thing. ] |
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He and people like him also want an authoritarian, one-party Republican rule, so yes, you're right, they don't want any unity. At this point, if the Dems proposed making yellow labs the national dog, they'd start throwing those pups out in the street and calling them radical leftists.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Tell us about it
Apr 22, 2021, 12:28 PM
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All-In [42203]
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Firstly...
Apr 22, 2021, 12:46 PM
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I don't agree with any of this:
Getting rid of the filibuster Packing the court Flooding the borders with future Dem votes Gun EO’s
The only thing I agree with on voting laws is making it easier for American citizens' to vote. No one should oppose that concept. Now, we can look at the discrepancies of how we do that and question methods, but not one single American should oppose increasing voter turn out. The problem is, the GOP MO right now is to do just that--find a way to limit voters.
Finally, on DC statehood. I support this simply for the rights of American citizens. They shouldn't be subjected to the same taxes or national regulations without representation. Simple. I would like to hear your arguments as to how this somehow "liberal".
Even better, present an argument against it that isn't just "I'm scared of having two more Dem senators". Because that's the argument of a partisan hack.
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Rock Defender [54]
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How about the argument that it’s unconstitutional?
Apr 22, 2021, 12:52 PM
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All-In [34114]
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Re: How about the argument that it’s unconstitutional?
Apr 22, 2021, 12:54 PM
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I didn't see an argument in there, just the repeated statement that it's unconstitutional.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: How about the argument that it’s unconstitutional?
Apr 22, 2021, 12:59 PM
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All-In [34114]
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Thanks!***
Apr 22, 2021, 1:01 PM
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All-In [42203]
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Are you telling me...
Apr 22, 2021, 12:57 PM
[ in reply to How about the argument that it’s unconstitutional? ] |
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That we might have to pass an amendment to the Constitution to make them a state?!
Next thing you'll tell me is that we need an amendment to outlaw slavery and let women vote.
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Hall of Famer [24481]
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Joined: 7/3/01
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I don't know you anymore. :)***
Apr 22, 2021, 1:01 PM
[ in reply to Firstly... ] |
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All-In [42203]
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Joined: 11/30/98
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Hey, you know what 1984 had?!
Apr 22, 2021, 1:09 PM
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Citizens who didn't have any representation in the government. Boom!
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Hall of Famer [24481]
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Joined: 7/3/01
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I see you're moving to my point of view. :)***
Apr 22, 2021, 1:12 PM
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Legend [17309]
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Joined: 12/14/98
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Elections (fairly won) have consequences, so I’ve been told.***
Apr 22, 2021, 12:24 PM
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All-In [34114]
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But this one was stolen, so...***
Apr 22, 2021, 12:30 PM
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Rock Defender [54]
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Heisman Winner [138009]
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It's nothing short of adorable that you're crediting
Apr 22, 2021, 12:40 PM
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Democrats with coming up with the concept of "no compromise", and encouraging civil war, all in the same post.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Joined: 11/30/98
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Re: It's nothing short of adorable that you're crediting
Apr 22, 2021, 12:45 PM
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Letterman [257]
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You should secede from this message board and go
Apr 22, 2021, 12:53 PM
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someplace like Parler, where you won’t have to coexist with people who have ideas you don’t agree with.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: You should secede from this message board and go
Apr 22, 2021, 1:04 PM
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All-In [34114]
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Re: You should secede from this message board and go
Apr 22, 2021, 1:13 PM
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I don’t care about people on this message board.
OK that hurts.
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Rock Defender [54]
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You know you’re special***
Apr 22, 2021, 1:19 PM
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Heisman Winner [138009]
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All-In [34114]
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Re: Dems push for DC statehood
Apr 22, 2021, 12:53 PM
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DC statehood seems problematic to me. I'm not an expert on the topic. But I thought the point of the District of Columbia was to keep the seat of federal government outside of any particular State government, which (I guess?) could result in favoritism or some other form of bias in terms of that State.
Is there any actual danger? Was it a danger 200 years ago but not now? Honestly I don't know. Until I least understand what the likely consequences might be, I'm not in favor.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Re: Dems push for DC statehood
Apr 22, 2021, 12:56 PM
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All-In [34114]
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Re: Dems push for DC statehood
Apr 22, 2021, 1:02 PM
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Had to happen eventually.
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Legend [17309]
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How about DC succession? And...
Apr 22, 2021, 1:23 PM
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A rational response on this Board is rare. Don’t be messing up the statistics.
Extremism and sarcasm are the preferred responses.
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All-In [40353]
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This needs its own thread
Apr 23, 2021, 12:14 AM
[ in reply to Re: Dems push for DC statehood ] |
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I’m with you here
Explain Like I’m 5 why DC needs to be a state?
What has happened that DC needs to finally adapt to statehood?
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All-TigerNet [12592]
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Re: Dems push for DC statehood
Apr 22, 2021, 2:50 PM
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DC shares none of the attributes of a state. I'm not aware of any significant industry or agriculture, logging, mining, fishing, etc. I guess it does have a healthy tourism industry, but basically is the seat of our government. I'll go with the Founding Fathers on this one.
It's a power grab period. George Will stated,"San Francisco will never vote Republican but will do so before D.C. does." "Does anyone believe that if D.C. were as incorrigibly Republican as it is Democratic, Democrats would favor D.C. statehood, which would mean two more Republican senators until the last trumpet shall sound." I don't.
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