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TigerNet Talk #97: Shouldering the Burden
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TigerNet Talk #97: Shouldering the Burden


Nov 18, 2010, 10:02 AM

 
TigerNet Talk #97: Shouldering the Burden

I'd love to have some words of wisdom that could make everyone understand how a team with the talent we have is sitting at 5-5 after ten football games. I think... Full Story »


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Re: TigerNet Talk #97: Shouldering the Burden


Nov 18, 2010, 10:23 AM

Good article,but when you were pointing fingers,you failed to mention the waterboy,who was probably guilty of not giving Hopkins enough water to drink before he fell on the infamous fade route.Truth is,everyone from Barker,TDP, to Dabo, his staff,and the team is to blame,but I for one am tired of all the cliches,and excuse.Somebody,anybody,just FIX THE PROBLEM.

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Reflective of most


Nov 18, 2010, 11:11 AM

I believe this thinking reflects most Clemson fan's opinion as opposed to the few cynical, crazy vocal/message board fans.

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Actually, if I analyze the data...


Nov 18, 2010, 1:37 PM

the article is averaging a 4.3 rating out of 10 thus far. I'm not sure what curve school systems use where your from, but at all the schools I attended, this was an F. Of course, it's only based on 6 data points thus far, so we'll have to reserve final judgement on whether it reflects most Clemson fans' opinions until later. Admittedly, we are limited in that this will only pull data from Tigernet though. So, the jury is out on whether or not Tigernetters are crazy or not and that this accurately reflects the true opinion of a Tiger fan. In my own data set outside Tigernet, most of the Tiger fans I've talked to have harsher things to say than the ones your referring to. However, I'm sure your right and everything. All fanboys are.

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I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message.


I'd like to know who the staff writer is...


Nov 18, 2010, 10:29 AM

this is actual based on reality and sanity.

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Re: I'd like to know who the staff writer is...


Nov 18, 2010, 10:55 AM

I agree.

It doesn't matter who is to blame, as we are all supposed
to be fighting for the same cause? We shouldn't be blaming anyone. We should be fixing the problems...

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I support the team, but not the newbie, incompetent coaches.


Nov 18, 2010, 1:29 PM

Of course the players aren't going to blame the coaches. I don't ever recall a college football player from any team publicly blaming the coaches. That's suicide.

Clemson is just one-year removed from the Atlantic title largely because the Atlantic stunk and CJ Spiller & Jacoby Ford aren't returning kicks and punts for TDs and great field position. Otherwise the offense still stinks. Proof:
In 2009, Clemson ranked 74th in total offense, (& 76th in red zone TD rate at 55%), and
In 2010, Clemson ranks 89th in total offense, (& 76th in red zone TD rate at 54%).

According to Rivals.com, over the last 5 years, Clemson’s recruiting classes have ranked (in reverse chronological order) #19, #37, #12, #16, & #16. Yet over the last 2 years the offense is ranked 74th and 89th.

Does anybody seriously believe that coaches who turn Top 20 recruiting classes into bottom half offenses are top notch coaches?

Does anybody seriously think that any decent FBS school in the country would hire Dabo Swinney to be head coach or Billy Napier to be OC? If not, then why are they good enough for a tradition-rich program like Clemson?

If you want to support the team, do everything in your power to call for Clemson to hire top-tier coaches, like a real football school. I feel bad for the players who invest their time, their hearts, and their careers into a program that is coached by guys who aren't giving them the best chance to win, and that no other decent FBS school would even interview.

Many Clemson fans seem to measure their fan-caliber by how well they support the coaches, regardless of the coaching performance. And many fans seem to be satisfied with mediocrity. I attended Clemson during the glory years of the early 80's. I hate this mediocrity. I'm a Clemson fan, not a coach fan. Coaches come and go. I want Clemson to have the best coaches that they can hire to give the team its best chance of success. No objective observer in the country would look at Clemson and think, "Clemson hired the best possible head coach that they could afford," or "That's a really well coached team."

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Re: I support the team, but not the newbie, incompetent coaches.


Nov 18, 2010, 4:20 PM

Here is an excerpt from the P&C: Swinney said Parker played an "excellent" game, though the sophomore threw two interceptions against no touchdowns and averaged a modest 5.4 yards per pass. One of the interceptions could not be blamed on Parker as Hopkins slipped on a fade route, covered one-on-one coverage in the end zone. Swinney said he would call the play another 20 times with such a favorable matchup. It was yet another opportunity wasted for Clemson.

How do you look at those stats and call them EXCELLENT? The fade route was so underthrown it wouldn't have mattered if Hopkins didn't fall down, it probably still would have been picked. Bottom line: they get to the redzone and take the ball out of a very good offensive line's hands and place in the hands of a very mediocre quarterback.

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Tradition rich??


Nov 18, 2010, 6:20 PM [ in reply to I support the team, but not the newbie, incompetent coaches. ]

The Clemson i've known in my lifetime is far from that. You tell anybody that's not a Clemson fan that and they'll laugh in your face. And I like how you only use offensive stats to compare to recruiting to prove your point.

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Re: Tradition rich??


Nov 18, 2010, 8:35 PM

OK enough bashing!!! First off if you are truly a fan from the glory days of the 80's then you need to remember the 55-0 FSU kick butts , the Syracuse Gator Bowl rain out etc. And may other embarrassments of the Hatfield days the West grow up years and the Bowden mediocrity's.....
I'm gonna take up for Dabo and the current coaches for this main reason.....We have not been humiliated and totally spanked as we have in the past. I'm willing to get in behind this team and these coaches because they are fighters, they believe in each other and they are all heading in the right direction. Remember how proud you were after the Auburn game. We are a tough team and I believe our losses have come down to hurt quarterbacks and running backs, bad calls by bad refs and mix in some downright bad luck. This team has heart and so does Dabo, get off his back , vent your frustration , but back this team and this coach. !!!

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Re: Tradition rich??


Nov 19, 2010, 10:47 AM

And don't forget about the missed field goals...Definitely can't forget those

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Exactly. Too many years of "true fans" supporting mediocrity


Nov 18, 2010, 10:19 PM [ in reply to Tradition rich?? ]

You nail the problem on the head. Younger people like you can't remember Clemson as being anything but mediocre because so many fans support mediocre coaches rather than supporting athletic excellence. As a result the Clemson fanbase is becoming dominated by those who are accustomed to mediocrity and expect nothing more. That's what happens when fans are more loyal to the coach than they are to the team.

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I compare recruiting & offense because that's the problem.


Nov 18, 2010, 11:24 PM [ in reply to Tradition rich?? ]

The defense has done a decent job the last two years (though statistically not as good as Koenning's defenses, so one could question Dabo's judgment in replacing Koenning) but you won't find one post by me where I've called for Steele's head. But the head coach is responsible for offense, defense, and special teams. Dabo has done OK (not great) by hiring Steele, but the offense (where Dabo hired a newbie OC and meddles in the play-calling) has been weak and special teams have been a mixed bag. (Good punting, coverage, and returns, but bad place kicking.) Here's a pretty good summary of the coaching problem on offense...

http://www.shakinthesouthland.com/2010/11/17/1820758/playcalling-and-the-debate-on-swinney-vs-napier

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enough of your BS


Nov 18, 2010, 8:28 PM [ in reply to I support the team, but not the newbie, incompetent coaches. ]

I see your handle on a several websites and the only time you have any support is when we win and then it is always "measured support". We can always count on you to rain on anything positive. Not sure why you even come on here and pretend to be a fan; seems like you prefer to live in the dark world.

If you are really a Gamecock fan - then please forgive me because you would have the right to spew your bitterness around.

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No intelligent counterpoints so you attack the messenger.***


Nov 18, 2010, 10:22 PM



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Re: I support the team, but not the newbie, incompetent coaches.


Nov 18, 2010, 8:37 PM [ in reply to I support the team, but not the newbie, incompetent coaches. ]

OK enough bashing!!! First off if you are truly a fan from the glory days of the 80's then you need to remember the 55-0 FSU kick butts , the Syracuse Gator Bowl rain out etc. And may other embarrassments of the Hatfield days the West grow up years and the Bowden mediocrity's.....
I'm gonna take up for Dabo and the current coaches for this main reason.....We have not been humiliated and totally spanked as we have in the past. I'm willing to get in behind this team and these coaches because they are fighters, they believe in each other and they are all heading in the right direction. Remember how proud you were after the Auburn game. We are a tough team and I believe our losses have come down to hurt quarterbacks and running backs, bad calls by bad refs and mix in some downright bad luck. This team has heart and so does Dabo, get off his back , vent your frustration , but back this team and this coach. !!!

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By "glory days" I meant Danny Ford era, not Tommy West!


Nov 18, 2010, 10:52 PM

You say that you support Dabo & his staff because "we haven't been humiliated and totally spanked as we have in the past."

Wow! In my opinion that's a horribly low bar. I'm saddened that Clemson has sunk to the point where the fans are content to merely not take a bad butt-whupping. But unlike you, I respect your right to post such opinions.

Personally, I want to see Clemson win championships and become nationally relevant again.

I agree that the team has heart and Dabo has heart. Dabo is simply not competent. Maybe he'll become competent after he does some more on-the-job training at the expense of the team. But right now, do you think any other decent FBS school in the country would hire him to be head coach?

In my opinion Clemson is 5-5 because of Dabo and his offensive staff are weak, not because of injuries, bad ref calls, and bad luck. FSU had Ponder out-injured and they had way more bad ref-calls than Clemson, but they beat Clemson. UNC was completely decimated by suspensions, but they beat Clemson. BC was completely out-manned, but they beat Clemson. Clemson's game-planning, play-calling, and personnel decisions have been weak. Do you really think that Dabo and the offensive staff are top notch? If so, what makes you think so? The 89th ranked offense?

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Re: By "glory days" I meant Danny Ford era, not Tommy West!


Nov 19, 2010, 5:37 AM

Razz-
You are right on...guys like you and I DO aspire the program to exude excellence, and this year couldn't exhibit that we are farther than from that goal than ever! We have taken a dramatic step backwards in fact. Look at how the National Media really makes fun of the program and under acheiving reputation of Clemson & The ACC! Clemson's failure is a major contributing factor to this attitude.

Our FBS Stat Rankings, as compared to the recruiting class rankings and our actual "output" clearly identifies there is a HUGE disconnect in our direction. It's a two-fold issue; 1)clearly the coaching staff not preparing these young men to execute, not arming them with the fundamentals, logic, attitude and intuition to win the close games, to beat mediocre teams. 2)The AD--- TDP.

It's so evident---The secondary has missed too many basic coverages, the linebackers for the first 7 games were MIA, the receiving corp drop everything...why hadn't the coaches seen how poor their catching skills were in spring practice, not half-way in to the season---the worst hands team in the FBS???? The lousy kicking game, place kicking and field goals??? They pass when the run game is clicking, they call cheezy routes that don't move the chains, penalties, giveaways, poor decisions...ALL of these small signatures are part of a larger problem that the current coaching staff is incompetent. Most of these fundamental issues and trends WOULD HAVE CLEARLY been recognized and adjusted for MUCH earlier by top echelon College Coaching Minds, expecially by a talented Head Coach and OC. Steele has been the ONLY coach who has shown he can adjust at all. Why does Napier call LOW PERCENTAGE PASS COMPLETION PLAYS in the RedZone???? Where is Allen? Where is some off-balanced play selection? Either the coaches aren't smart enough to call it, or they have not properly prepared the players well enough to execute...

Razz, keep up your solid accountability based anlysis, and it does not make you nor I LESS a fan. Our root-cause (I would call it reality approach) rationale, and ability to NOT drink the Clemson Kool-Aid, rubs most of these fairy tale fans wrong (thus the continued mediocrity and "wishful" thinking is "OK", let's just be "positive" an dit will all go away!), so they attack, aka shoot the messenger, and without really understanding the science of the stats that clearly support the program continues to be in trouble, that should concern the really TRUE fans! With any other SEC coaching staff, we would have at least three more wins under our belt!!!

The recent history (yes there have been some good years mixed on there, but they are in the minority for sure), trends and continued decline of the Clemson Football Program DOES CLEARLY signal that TDP (and Barker) does not have or care to have an eye for shaping Clemson in to a consistent winning program/powerhouse, and until he is replaced the coaching talent and SPEND to hire top shelf talent will NEVER BE. Dabo, Scott, Napier and the rest of this inept staff are all small to mid-range college coaches at BEST (even though they might be nice guys), they are not even close to national, respectable caliber football minds! GO TIGERS!

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It's nice to know others want Clemson to achieve excellence!


Nov 19, 2010, 3:17 PM

It looks like you're my age (2 years older). I guess those of us who remember Clemson's excellence in football (and can remember when we beat VT 9-out-of 10 games) see that Clemson is one good head coach away from being nationally relevant again.

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Good thing you weren't around in 1980


Nov 19, 2010, 8:14 AM [ in reply to By "glory days" I meant Danny Ford era, not Tommy West! ]

You'd have been calling for Danny Ford's head then, too.

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Re: Good thing you weren't around in 1980


Nov 19, 2010, 8:37 AM

I've been going to Clemson games since I was 4 years old...that would be 1963...so I have a better historical perspective than you will ever attain NN. Never at any moment did loyal Clemson fans think DF was not up to the task...look at the strenth of schedule then versus today...it's apparent that at that time the program was being shaped (by the AD & Coaching Staff) as a National power. Today...it's a cream puff schedule and WEAK OC strategy...it has steadily declined for the most part over the last 20 years. So, is this indicative of the players or the AD & Head Coaching/Staff Talent? The later I submit.Oh, and BTW what the Ford days yielded is irrelevant to me today...2010, 5-5, losing 3-4 games we should have won, that is what I have a problem with.

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I was around in 1980. Danny's teams weren't poorly coached.***


Nov 19, 2010, 2:19 PM [ in reply to Good thing you weren't around in 1980 ]



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Do you ever shut up?***


Nov 18, 2010, 3:12 PM [ in reply to I support the team, but not the newbie, incompetent coaches. ]



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Do you ever post intelligent, data-backed counterpoints?***


Nov 19, 2010, 3:03 PM



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Give a list of the top coaches you would like to see


Nov 19, 2010, 6:59 AM [ in reply to I support the team, but not the newbie, incompetent coaches. ]

come to Clemson. You bash Dabo, so who would you like to see instead. Be realistic as who you think would come to Clemson. Give an alternative and why you think they would come.

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Re: Give a list of the top coaches you would like to see


Nov 19, 2010, 8:48 AM

With TDP in place, our options are limited---he's complacent. I really like Dabo as a man, motivator, and he has a good image for the school, nobody is bashing him, BUT the program (results) is UNDER ACHEIVING, so this has to attributed to our strategy, planning & execution, which is the Head Coaches responsibility... as Dabo himself has admitted in multiple press conferences/releases, all of this begins-ends with him accountability wise. If he cuts lose Napier at seasons end...then he is taking steps to rectify what is a bad experiment...that will give him significant credibilty with the fan base, we shall see.

BTW, living in TX, I get to see some talent regularly that maybe you don't in the SE (that's an assumption you are there, sorry if I am wrong).

The OC at OSU (Oklahoma State) is the best innovator I have seen in a LONG time. The OC at The University of Houston..is good, What about the OC at Boise State, TCU, Oklahoma, the HC at Houston is an up-and-comer...there is a talent pool for starters. TDP needs to have 10 TV's in his media room, and just watch other games around the universe, then he can see how sad Napier is.

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Gary Patterson, Chris Peterson, Gus Malzahn, Al Golden...


Nov 19, 2010, 2:57 PM [ in reply to Give a list of the top coaches you would like to see ]

Mark Whipple, Kevin Sumlin, Kirby Smart, Brady Hoke, Randy Edsall, to name a few of the top of my head. If I were an AD with the time and staff to do some research, I'll be I could come up with a much bigger, better list of seasoned, proven coaches. There are lots of coaches out there who actually have experience and proven track records, who would jump at the Clemson job. Clemson is a very desirable head coaching job for the following reasons:
* Good facilities.
* SEC stadium.
* Fertile recruiting region.
* Reasonable academic admissions.
* Easy conference to win and go BCS bowling.
* Lovely, warm-weather, lakeside campus.
* Solid fanbase.
* Low expectations. (Kept Bowden for 9 years of upper-mediocrity.)
* Nice place to live & raise a family.
* Low cost of living.

If less desireable neighboring schools can hire seasoned, proven winners like Steve Spurrier at SCar, Tom O'Brien at NCSU, and Butch Davis at UNC, then I think it's safe to say that Clemson can hire AT LEAST as good of a coach. But Clemson hired a zero-experience, unproven position coach to be head coach.

What self-respecting FBS football school has done that in the last 20 years? It's unheard of even for crappy programs, let alone at a school like Clemson. Do you seriously think Dabo is the best coach that Clemson can hire? If so, why?

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Re: Gary Patterson, Chris Peterson, Gus Malzahn, Al Golden...


Nov 20, 2010, 9:47 AM

Other than Patterson and Peterson, this is a pretty lame list. Give reasons why these other guys would be good head coaches. These other guys are not seasoned and have done little to PROVE they would be a good head coach. They would be gambles. As far as Spurrier, O'Brien and Davis, Dabo is 3-0 against O'Brien, 1-1 against Spurrier and 0-1 against Davis. Spurrier has been a dud in my opinion. Like Holtz it created a buzz and excitement but he has been less than impressive. He won the east this year much like Dabo won the atlantic last year. If you are going to give Spurrier credit for his title you have to give Dabo credit for his too. It's funny how Spurrier has suddenly become a brilliant coach again since Lattimore arrived. If you give him credit for being a good coach you cannot discredit Dabo's accomplishments just because he had Spiller and Ford.
Now as for Patterson and Peterson IF they would leave their current jobs why would they pick Clemson over other schools that would certainly be calling. You say there are lots of seasoned, proven coaches that would love to come to Clemson. I don't believe that to be true. It's easy to say, much harder to show.

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Just a couple of quick observations...


Nov 19, 2010, 4:37 PM [ in reply to I support the team, but not the newbie, incompetent coaches. ]

1. Whether you agree with Razz or not, he makes his arguments siting hard facts and statistics.
2. Those who do not agree with him seem do it in a more emotionally driven way with no hard facts, just a belief in our team and coaches.

Bottom line
I wonder what everyone's opinions would be if you replaced the name Clemson University with Johnson University, Dabo with Jimmy, Billy with Sonny, Brad with Bob, etc. and actually took a non-emotional, objective point of view when looking at the state of our program?

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Re: I support the team, but not the newbie, incompetent coaches.


Nov 19, 2010, 10:49 PM [ in reply to I support the team, but not the newbie, incompetent coaches. ]

Good post...totally agree.

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Where in the BCS calculations does closeness figure in?


Nov 19, 2010, 6:49 PM

Is there a factor for the differential in score for each game we loss? We only lost by 3?

Is there a calculation for nearly or almost winning a game?

How far up the BCS scale does a team move if they lead the game for 55 minutes and then lose?

Certainly you get points for participating in last years division championship?!

No? Well, until all of this factors in, nothing that's happened this season indicates an imporvement at any level?

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“poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids.”


Re: TigerNet Talk #97: Shouldering the Burden


Nov 20, 2010, 9:34 AM

I will always support my Tigers. With that being said, there are several looming issues that speak to coaching deficiencies or philosophies. Here we are again this year starting the season without knowing who can catch the football. This fact lands squarely on the receivers coach and the offensive coordinator. This fact cuts even deeper knowing we had the same issue last year with the same guys. McNeal and Hopkins should have started game one, and their performance after the season midpoint only cements this fact. It is obvious there is a lack of recognition of game-time performers with these two coaching positions. On top of that, the mistake is magnified when YOU do not call down-field passes because YOU don't have confidence in the receivers YOU chose. The play action ceases to be a threat, and your whole offensive scheme is more than predictable. I think all of these issues stem from lack of experience, especially when most of YOUR statistics came from Spiller and Ford during their tenures. Great recruiter does not translate into great offensive mind.

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