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YOUR BALANCE
Ryan, Eagles Dash Clemson's ACC Title Hopes
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Ryan, Eagles Dash Clemson's ACC Title Hopes


Nov 18, 2007, 12:04 AM

Ryan, Eagles Dash Clemson's ACC Title Hopes

Tigers fall 20-17, missing opportunity to play in Jacksonville next week for league championship. Full Story »


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Re: Ryan, Eagles Dash Clemson's ACC Title Hopes


Nov 18, 2007, 12:37 AM

ptttttthhhhhhh

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297 more days until Football Season!


Nov 18, 2007, 2:01 AM

and a renewal of optimism. I defintely see the "experts" picking Clemson to win the Atlantic. Just like they did last year..

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Spence stinks, rushing BC's #2 rush-D on 61% of 1st downs...


Nov 18, 2007, 2:43 AM

prior to Clemson's last desperation drive of 10 straight passes.

BC has the #2 ranked rush defense in the nation and the #110 ranked pass defense. So would you try to rush more or pass more against BC? Did you say pass? Then you're not Rob Spence.

As usual, the defense played well enough to win the game, but Spence blew it with poor play calling. Prior to Clemson's last desperation drive of 10 straight pass plays, Spence called 51% rushing plays, including 61% rushing plays on 1st down. That should have been more like 75% passing plays.

Spence stinks. But Bowden stinks for not having the guts to fire his buddy Spence last year when it became obvious that Spence is incompetent.

Clemson is 5-3 in the ACC, but 1-3 against the good ACC teams that we played (FSU, GT, VT, & BC). How lame. NINE years under Bowden without an ACC title. Thanks coach. You just go ahead and remain loyal to your buddy Spence. Don't you worry about winning the ACC or anything.

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Re: Spence stinks, rushing BC's #2 rush-D on 61% of 1st downs...


Nov 18, 2007, 9:02 AM

Totally the coaches fault, you're right. Aaron Kelley didn't drop a game-winning touchdown pass...Tommy Bowden did - or maybe it was Rob Spence.

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BC had dropped balls too. Address my point.. Why run so much


Nov 18, 2007, 11:26 AM

... against the #2 ranked run defense and pass so little against the 110th ranked pass defense?

Does that make sense to you? Do you think that was good offensive play calling?

I would have loved for Aaron Kelley to have caught that touchdown pass but it's hard to catcha deep over the shoulder ball like that. You see players drop them all the time. I watched about 4 drops like that in different games on Saturday. You're talking about one muffed play. I'm talking about 4 quarters of bad play calling.

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Re: BC had dropped balls too. Address my point.. Why run so much


Nov 18, 2007, 12:08 PM

because for one these backs are some of the best backs in the country and if they get a whole they are most of the time gonna get six, dont bash the coaches on this one the coaches did there job, Every football game with any team in america when you look back at a game you could say shouldve done this shouldve done that, hindsights 20/20... Im proud of our team they fought hard, and yes the recievers dropped some key balls in the last 45 seconds of the ball game.. but hey thats the way the ol cookie crumbles... Love ya tigers and Im actually comin around to the coaches...

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Not 20-20 hindsight. Read my pre-game post.***


Nov 18, 2007, 12:54 PM



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Not 20-20 hindsight. Read my pre-game post.


Nov 18, 2007, 1:03 PM [ in reply to Re: BC had dropped balls too. Address my point.. Why run so much ]

http://www.tigernet.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=5217067

As you can see from my pre-game post, this was quite foreseeable. I was afraid that Spence would blow the game by calling too many runs-- especially on first down. Spence is so predictable, so incopetent. Our superstar running backs averaged 1.5 yards per carry while we averaged 5.65 yards per pass attempt.

It's not 20-20 hindsight to know that you should pass a lot against the #110 ranked pass defense and rush a little against the #2 ranked rush defense. It's common sense.

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Im sorry but hes right Aaron Kelly lost that game.........


Nov 18, 2007, 11:50 AM [ in reply to Re: Spence stinks, rushing BC's #2 rush-D on 61% of 1st downs... ]

You cant throw it much better than Harper did! Thats the kinda throw and ctach you dream about.... i guess he was dreaming instead of concentrating on coming down with the #### ball!!!!

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Aaron Kelley has been a brilliant, reliable receiver.


Nov 18, 2007, 12:48 PM

You can't blame that loss on Kelley. Everybody drops one once in a while-- especially an over-the-shoulder long ball. BC dropped several passes but they still beat us in Death Valley. I'll be thrilled if Kelley doesn't leave early for the NFL. But I wouldn't blame him if he did with an idiot like Spence calling the plays.

Clemson averaged 1.5 yards per carry rushing, and 5.65 yards per pass attempt. (6.7 yards per completion.) Why did Spence run so much against the #2 rush defense and pass so little against the #110 ranked pass defense? And why does Bowden keep Spence employed? (I've heard rumors that it's because they're buddies.) It's the same incompetence from Spence, every year.

C'mon Terry Phillips... Finish the job!

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Re: Aaron Kelley has been a brilliant, reliable receiver.


Nov 18, 2007, 1:16 PM

Indeed he has been. Without him we wouldnt have even been in this position but when the game is on the line and if you catch it your the hero and your team goes to Jacksonville then you have to make that catch!

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Re: Im sorry but hes right Aaron Kelly lost that game.........


Nov 18, 2007, 12:52 PM [ in reply to Im sorry but hes right Aaron Kelly lost that game......... ]

You can't be hard on Kelly. He's played excellent all year and has kept us alive on many drives. He's another Youngblood and will be incredible next year. It would have been great if he caught that pass but he's human. He'll bounce back and play fantastic next week. He's very intelligent and talented so don't blame him for one dropped pass.

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Re: Im sorry but hes right Aaron Kelly lost that game.......


Nov 18, 2007, 7:27 PM

correct me if i'm wrong but was it not aaron kelly that caught that ball on 4th and 10? The game can't fall on one play...even if he catches that ball you still give matt ryan the ball back with over a minute and three timeouts

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Re: Im sorry but hes right Aaron Kelly lost that game.......


Nov 18, 2007, 7:34 PM

Not to mention, if you look closely at the video (http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3116862&categoryId=2564308&n8pe6c=2) at about the 1:00 to go mark, look closely at AK's feet just before the ball arrives. It looks as though he gets tripped. Incendital contact perhaps (I do not see it as interference). How many of us could out run two defenders and catch a ball like that, just at the time we are being tripped and losing our balnace? If you can, then perhaps you can blame AK, but until you prove you can, it was not his fault.

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I'm glad to see most support Kelly. Had it not been for him


Nov 18, 2007, 8:01 PM [ in reply to Re: Im sorry but hes right Aaron Kelly lost that game......... ]

we wouldn't be playing for a spot in the ACC Championship Game. One play didn't cost us that game. I'm not even upset with play calling for once. If we don't attempt to run two of the best backs in the country I'm sure the fans would have questioned that as well. I know I did against Ga Tech when I believe CJ and JD combined for 12 total touches/carries (may have had some receptions).

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With our style offense, you just can't stop running the...


Nov 18, 2007, 7:32 PM [ in reply to Spence stinks, rushing BC's #2 rush-D on 61% of 1st downs... ]

ball.

61% run on 1st down sounds about right to me.

What killed our offense were mistakes...not the calls from the box.

Oh...and p.s.

You're an idiot.

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I didn't say STOP running the ball. I'm saying adapt or lose


Nov 18, 2007, 11:57 PM

Spence lost. Who cares what our "style" of offense is. If you're playing a team with the 110th ranked pass defense and the 2nd ranked rush defense, you have to adapt your game plan to exploit your opponent's weaknesses-- passing far more than rushing. If they had a great pass defense and a weak rushing defense you do the opposite. That's coaching 101. We averaged 1.5 yards per rush and 5.65 yards per pass attempt completing 67% of our passes with Harper who has the highest pass efficiency rating in the ACC. I think the data backs me up. But I'm just an idiot. So please enlighten me with a well reasoned, adult argument rather than name calling like a small child.

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Yes...it is idiotic to site our % running on 1st down....


Nov 19, 2007, 1:30 PM

versus their ranking in run and pass defense.

Did they play many run oriented teams? How many did they have in the box on 1st downs? What were the situations? Were they run blitzing on 1st down? Were their linebackers banged-up? Did their down lineman play well against a zone blocking scheme? Were their lineman and linebackers good playing the wide run or were they more suited to stopping a north/south running game? Do we do better in 2nd and 7 versus 2nd and 10 (i.e. after an incomplete 1st down)? Were we trying to set-up some play-action on 1st down for later in the game?

I could go on for pages. The point is that you don't plan your play calling simply on defensive rankings. It's a little more complicated than that. Perhaps...just maybe...Spense might know a little more about it than you.

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Obviously it's more complicated but I can't write a book.


Nov 19, 2007, 3:01 PM

I did watch the game however. And it was clear to me that Spence was running to much. The stats back me up. Clemson had 1.5 yards per rush. Looks like BC's defense does just fine against a run-oriented team. What a surprise from the #2 ranked rush defense.

Even on Clemson's final desperation drive of ten straight passing plays when BC was 100% sure that Clemson would pass every down, Clemson still marched the ball down the field. What a surprise from the #110th ranked pass defense and the top ranked passer in the ACC.

I think the resulting data backs me up. But I'd be open to any data that you have showing why I'm wrong, rather than you pointing out obvious generalizations.

Spence needed to pass to set up the run. He didn't do that. Too often, he sent the dancing CJ Spiller between the tackles even though Spiller hasn't run well between the tackles all year.

I'm sure Spence knows more about football than I do. I'm sure that Dennis Frachione and Bill Callahan know more about football than me too. But their results stink. And I know enough to know that I don't want any of them coaching at my alma mater. Spence is fine for a school like Toledo or something. But he's not competent to be an OC in the big leagues.

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Spence stinks?


Nov 18, 2007, 7:50 PM [ in reply to Spence stinks, rushing BC's #2 rush-D on 61% of 1st downs... ]

Be frustrated, we all are. But before you attack a good man with your empty words, check your numbers. Just saying we are too conservative because we didn't pass the ball "x" number of times is very elementary. Our offense is very complex. We have more plays than:
1) Run
and
2) Pass.
You have to run dives to keep linebackers honest, throw screens to keep linebackers and D-linemen honest, draws, reverses, counters, etc.
Rob does a great job of mixing things up. Sure he misses a call every now and then, I'm sure he would even tell you that. But, come on, to say he stinks is laughable.
I'm curious why you think Spence stinks? Which of the following stats supports your degrading remarks about an awesome coach and great man?
Consider the following:

Category ACC Rank
Total Offense 2
Rush Offense 2
Pass Offense 2
Scoring Offense 1
Pass Efficiency 1
First Downs 2
3rd Down Conv. 2
Red Zone Offense 1

He is also the QB coach who has taken a virtual no name kid and in 1 year coached him into a QB who has numbers comparable or better than a QB that is being touted for the Heisman(Matt Ryan).

Stinks? I think he is doing just fine.

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Re: Spence stinks?


Nov 18, 2007, 8:04 PM

Great post! Spence doesn't run an easy/typical offense. It's complicated at times and I applaud our team for being smart enough to learn the offense.

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Re: Spence stinks?


Nov 18, 2007, 9:26 PM

I'm not a Spence fan either, but I don't have a problem with trying to run the ball. I do however have a problem with trying to get cute when you have the best back in the ACC and you have 1st and goal on the 2 yard line, and you choreograph your team as if they're dancers in the Chorus Line play. Just hand the ball off to JD. With 3 attempts, he's in the endzone, guaranteed! But that and one other play is really all I have trouble with. With 2 TO on the board and running out of time, use the middle of the field, get your kicker in range. Quick passes. Harper was sacked because the play call had him looking down field for the homerun. It cost us. TB has never managed the clock well. That's not bashing, just fact. I hope we kill the coots! GO TIGERS!!

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Spence is not an Idiot, He's a moron!!!!!


Nov 19, 2007, 1:15 AM

It's the same crap we did in the Kentucky game. If their team sucks at run D, we pass 60 times for 3-5 yds. every down or in this case we run 60/40 on a crappy secondary.. This is called reverse mismatch. The general idea is that BC will know that Clemson will be trying to expose weaknesses, so therefore they believe that Clemson will have a game plan to Pass 65/35, therefore they (BC) will practice longer on the pass D. and expect mostly passing. Spence is trying to play physcology games, most coaches do it, even their coaches did it all night--- how many times did they run it? This is a team that usually throws 60-75 times a game. The problem is that Clemson has too many weapons to let this crap actually work for BC, how many times did we throw deep? How many mis matches did we expose, they had a freshman CB that tried to line up with #3 and #4 recievers- why not reverse it on him with a reciever in motion every play against this guy--- he would have been so confused he would have tried to press-man one of the refs and left Tyler or Ren open deep. We do not expose mismatches!!!!! Also, must mention that C.J. is quickly becoming a huge WUSS, I get so tired of watching him run out of bounds 3-4 yrds short instead of taking a hit and trying to power a first down. He doesn't block for Cullen, he stunk as the lead blocker for Jacoby on the returns, he's basically running 20 to get 3 with all the dancing. Spence even trying to run a Wuss like that up the middle is a joke--the only reason it would/did work is cause the Defense would never belive he would run up the middle--- that requires taking a hit. A lot of first downs left on the field because of C.J. Personally I believe that Bowden/Spence must be crazy to believe that Bucholtz could hit a 54 yarder. BC played that entire game to win---- they went for it on 4th downs, they never got conservative, they ran often and well, they passed deep, short over the middle and every where else. Fans you must be insane if you try to blame this game on one play (Aaron). Yes it would have been the miraculous play that we needed--- but we played like we were scared the whole game... Is the QB sneak even in our playbook? Ryan was able to sneak over and over again---and we were handing it off 5 yards in the backfield to get 1 yard %^&$@#!@## What the %$@#^*% is that? That means JD has to run 6 to get 1..... Bull &^%%^&*%##^%$$##@##$^&*(((^$#$#%^&*^%$$# Clemson played not to lose so they did; BC played to win so they did. I thought the D played well though---of coarse except Crez. who got burned deep just like he did a couple of times against Woodson last year, overall though he played well every other snap of this game. It happens, shake it off Crez, get em' next week. Anyway Spence sucks!!!! Bowden sucks!!!! and TDP is the only AD dumb enough to keep a guy who has nothing, NOTHING to show for 9 years as a coach here. THE STATE paper said it best when they said "Excluding South Florida's Jim Leavitt and UCONN's Randy Edsall- whos stints began with thier programs in the Division I-AA ranks-- Twelve other coaches from the 6 BCS conferences have served at their school for at least 9 years. At a minimun, all 12 have claimed a division title. Fellow hot-seat licence holder Houston Nutt of Arkansas is the only one yet to collect a league title." In other words Tommy Sucks!!!!! I was trying to give the guy a chance to win it this year but since he did'nt get the job done, I am the driver of the bandwagon campaign to Have Tommy ousted from his seat as head coach. Maybe we don't get a better coach, maybe we just get a luckier coach. Screw it, we definatly get a luckier coach!!!! Trophy was case last opened 17 years ago. More than half that was Tommy's tenure. Thanks loser!!!!! hope you enjoy coaching at Rice or Temple in the future, maybe Duke will offer......Fire him!!!!!

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Excellent points!****


Nov 19, 2007, 2:25 AM



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Re: Spence stinks?


Nov 18, 2007, 10:14 PM [ in reply to Spence stinks? ]

he may not stink but I think its time to let him go, sure he puts up great numbers for the overall season but when it comes to the big games, the ones that really matter like last night, he isn't getting the job done. we should be able to put up 21 pts against any defense in the nation and we should have a defense good enough to hold the other team under 21. if we do that then we are a one loss team this yr and only b/c of special teams mistakes. jmo

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Great O-stats vs LaMon, Furman, CMich, Duke. But GT, VT, BC?


Nov 19, 2007, 2:17 AM [ in reply to Spence stinks? ]

I didn't say that Spence was too conservative. I said that he tried to run far too often against the #2 ranked rush defense (110th ranked pass defense). If BC had a top ranked pass defense and a poor rush defense, I would expect Spence to call far more runs than passes. I'm not making that determination from looking at the stats on paper. I watched the game. The stats merely support what I saw with my own eyes.

I think that our overall offensive stats and our win-loss record (especially over the last two years) is inflated greatly by the large number of cupcakes that we play (LaMon, Furman, Central Michigan, & Duke this year). When you put up 70 points on C-Mich, it brings up your average quite a bit. (Heck even Ball St. put 58 points on C-Mich this year.) But when it comes to the good teams, Spence is out-classed. He does not adapt. For example, Spence only managed 3 points against GT.

In the Sagarin strength-of-schedule rankings, Clemson's schedule ranks 8th out of the 12 teams in the ACC, and 44th in the country. So when you tout Spence's offensive stats, don't forget the asterisk for the weak schedule. I dare say that our offensive stats would rank much lower if we played a stronger out-of-conference schedule like FSU plays this year (Alabama, Colorado, UAB, & Florida).

Clemson is 5-3 in the ACC and 1-3 so far against the good teams (FSU, GT, VT, BC, & SoCar). Those are the only stats that matter. The defense played well enough to win the ACC for the last two seasons. But Spence's poor play calling cost us the ACC title for a second straight year, in my opinion.

Spence may be a good QB coach (or maybe Harper is just really talented-- I don't know), but Spence is a terrible play caller and game-time coach. Why didn't the genius QB coach call one of his two times out before the second last play and remind his QB not to take a sack... or maybe think twice about calling short drop pass? Poor coaching.

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Re: Great O-stats vs LaMon, Furman, CMich, Duke. But GT, VT, BC?


Nov 19, 2007, 3:54 PM

oh that's right, you mean those powerhouses UAB and Colorado that FSU played?? How in the world do you name those two teams when arguing a strong schedule?

And by the way....an OC can't call a timeout from the coaches box. Somebody on the field has to do that, so until you can prove to me that Spence didn't request one, shut up about the T.O.

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Re: Great O-stats vs LaMon, Furman, CMich, Duke. But GT, VT, BC?


Nov 19, 2007, 6:04 PM [ in reply to Great O-stats vs LaMon, Furman, CMich, Duke. But GT, VT, BC? ]

YOU KNOW I WAS AT GA TECH LAST YEAR.....I THINK WE SCORED OK IN THAT 1. WAS HE THERE LAST YEAR??

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I guess they forgot about USC next week.***


Nov 18, 2007, 7:24 AM



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Re: I guess they forgot about USC next week.***


Nov 19, 2007, 6:01 PM

I THINK WE CAN STILL END UP 10-3. WOW....A LOT OF TEAMS HAVE 2 AND 3 LOSSES THIS YEAR. I THINK WE ARE ABOUT WHERE WE SHOULD BE...BASED ON HOW I FELT PRE-SEASON. LETS FINISH THIS THING.....THE WAY IT COULD PLAY OUT WE STILL COULD FINISH BETWEEN 12 - 15TH IN THE NATION.

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