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Topic: We legit have people b^%#ching about O-line recruiting
Replies: 46   Last Post: Dec 11, 2018 11:58 AM by: BornATiger13
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We legit have people b^%#ching about O-line recruiting

[2]
Posted: Dec 11, 2018 12:02 AM
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when we’re about to win another National Championship.

I guess you can’t make everyone happy...

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I think this is in large part driven by another Clemson

[17]
Posted: Dec 11, 2018 12:45 AM
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Website that thinks we should sign 4-5 OL every class. Coach Swinney isn’t going to have 20-25% of his roster OL, that wouldn’t be smart roster management. The staff was only going to take 2 OL in this class and 5 in 2020. The website I’m talking about always finds something negative to complain about, a few years ago it was fire the strength and conditioning coach, then it was Coach Pearman the special teams coach, now their target is Coach Caldwell, luckily Coach Swinney is in charge. I would think after 8 straight 10 plus win seasons, 5 straight over our rival, 4 straight conference titles, 4 straight CFP invites, 2 national Title games, 1 National Title and a chance for a second they’d trust the staff. You just can’t do anything about people who always focus on the negative, except remove them from your life.


Totally agree , proof is in the pudding !***


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 12:54 AM
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Re:Totally agree, proof is in the pudding! there is pudding?

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2018 9:21 AM
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why wasnt I told? ;)

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Lol

[12]
Posted: Dec 11, 2018 6:41 AM
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Bad roster management would be only signing 4 OL between the last 2 classes. You should at MINIMUM be signing 3 per class to account forbid attrition and provide continuous depth. You’re signing linemen in this class to be ready to play in 2020 where we will lose all but 6 OL currently on our roster and a couple of those were at one point walk ons.

8 linemen that aren’t true freshmen simply isn’t enough depth and one injury can cripple you, two could kill a season.

Pointing out areas of concern for the future and being happy with where we are now aren’t mutually exclusive.


You tell em dabo***

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2018 7:56 AM
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Re: You tell em dabo***


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 8:04 AM
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So I guess they intentionally missed on Webb, Dobbs, Morris, Miller, Clark, and Wright?

Heaven forbid anyone have a single criticism


Re: You tell em dabo***


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 8:31 AM
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We're fine on the O-line and in recruiting this year, especially if we add Putnam. The good news is we get the chance to recruit those big name 4-5* O-line recruits again for 2020 and every year after that. Its an irrelevant criticism.


Re: You tell em dabo***


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 11:23 AM
    Reply

If we only add one more OL this year I would say that there is a good chance that it could potentially lead to problems down the road. That doesn't mean I don't trust the coaching staff by any means, but it's an undeniable fact that recruiting only 4 OL over a two year period (currently 3, but 4 if we get Putnam and no one else) will lead to depth problems in a couple years.


I don't think we should be taking 5 OL every year by any means, but taking an average of 3 per year over every two year period is definitely a realistic minimum.

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Re: You tell em dabo- I think that is the question


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 9:23 AM
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why isnt this position group getting the same level of recruiting success we get in other areas? It is enough different you tend to wonder.

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What other position groups have 2 or more 5 star players


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 10:13 AM
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DL and WR

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Re: You tell em dabo- I think that is the question


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 11:41 AM
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Caldwell isn’t a great recruiter, which is okay as most OL coaches aren’t. The problem is mainly with Pearman also not being a good recruiter as that should be part of the TE coach’s job.

I wouldn’t have a problem with missing on the 5* guys because almost every program does, but because the coaches tend to be so selective with their offers the 4 star guys that would be our fallbacks after the 5 stars decide, are already gobbled up because we didn’t focus on them soon enough.


Re: You tell em dabo***


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 8:59 AM
    Reply

I’ve seen you complain about OL play when defenders are literally running around Pollard...

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"We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln


Re: Lol


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 8:29 AM
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Found one of the fan girls of that website.

#### if that place had its way Dabo would have been fired a long time ago.

2019 white level member

March 4th 2016- "Lee won't be here 4 years from today" - Viztiz


Re: Lol


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 11:47 AM
    Reply

You caught me. Every year that we don’t win a national championship is a failure and every game decided by under 50 points feels like a loss.

OR

I’m very happy with where the program currently is but there are a couple issues I’d like to see addressed to make sure we’re able to stay at this level. Being objective and seeing things clearly does not make you a bad fan or a coot.

The issues we are having with safeties this year is directly due to not having enough bodies at the position from previous recruiting classes to be able to recover from attrition. Which is now being over corrected this class by signing 4 safeties. Same things are happening in the 2020 class where we’re looking for 5-6 quality OL when we could’ve easily fixed that by taking one more at the position the last 2 years


Re: Lol


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 11:52 AM
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I get what you are saying on the numbers.

I pose this question to you. Would you rather take one more questionable guy in a class that we are not high on or hold the scholarship and have uneven classes?

This seems to be your biggest push is the balanced classes vs our current style. You seem ok with the eventual talent level but are not happy that it is not waiting on campus like at other positions.


Re: Lol


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 11:58 AM
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You’re correct that the talent level isn’t a worry to me. Caldwell is a good developer and unless you’re signing all 5* linemen, I think the talent level between 3 and 4 stars eventually washes out. It may have been you or someone else that said he he star rating typically coincides with the development time needed to be able to contribute.

I would rather see us take one more “project” lineman in each class than try to assemble one class of 6 contributors every 3-4 years as I think that puts too much strain on the depth.

But I think the easiest solution is to aim a little lower at the recruiting board to not chase after the 5 stars as hard and instead put more effort into the 4 star guys like Harry Miller so when (I know Carman is the exception) the 5 star guys commit elsewhere, we’re not just left with the “project” linemen as our fallback options.


If that's the case, then that other Clemson website


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 8:00 AM
    Reply

is a total piece of shyatt

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"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


Sorry Man!!!


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 8:14 AM
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Rhett, the apology is because in an effort to TU your post I “fat fingered” this iPhone.

I’ve gone back and TU’d several of your past post trying to makeup for My carelessness.

Again I am sorry!!!

2019 white level member

Re: I think this is in large part driven by another Clemson


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 8:30 AM
    Reply

Yep that website thinks their #### dont stink.

Their arrogance is pretty pathetic.

2019 white level member

March 4th 2016- "Lee won't be here 4 years from today" - Viztiz


Re: I think this is in large part driven by another Clemson


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 9:30 AM
    Reply

It must have been another website because there has not been one thread re OL recruiting on this board. That's proof positive that we are leaving this problem strictly in Dabo's hand.

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Re: I think this is in large part driven by another Clemson


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 9:34 AM
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Dabo and staff need the help that’s being offered and I hope they are reading these insightful messages and by the way they are free


Re: I think this is in large part driven by another Clemson


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 10:41 AM
    Reply

Idolatrous bliss immune to any form of perceived negative influence w/o consideration.


Re: We legit have people b^%#ching about O-line recruiting

[6]
Posted: Dec 11, 2018 7:29 AM
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You do realize winning a national championship this year and complaining about OL recruiting have no relationship. It takes most (not all) OL a few years to develop and be ready. So go back 2-3 years and we were recruiting decent OL.

For the group that uses the arguement well we are winning and Dabo knows all... help to look 2-3 years from now. Who will be protecting TLaw and hopefully DJ.

It’s a numbers game and we just haven’t signed enough bodies. This year we needed a good group and we have missed. Signing Putnam will help but we are hoping to sign a kid who Syracuse projects as a Dline. If that doesn’t scream project I don’t know what does. Hopefully Stewart, Dehond, Vinson, take the next step. But realistically our line play is going to drop off after this year losing Hyatt, Simpson, Falcinelli, and co... and even further after we lose Gervenka, and even Anchrum and Pollard.


Yes I'd say Dabo knows all

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2018 8:03 AM
    Reply

Or at least he knows enough that I trust him to do his job.

The results speak for themselves. And since you mention 2-3 years from now, the 2020 class is looking incredible.

2019 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg

"IDIOT POSTER OF THE MONTH SO FAR...GWP-- You have won IPM Award for your failure to completely comprehend a clear post & then choose to attack someone who points out your ignorance. While you are not yet in the same No Class Catagory as deRoberts, ClemTiger117 & Tigerdug23, you are getting closer to the Sewer Dwellers." - coachmac


Re: Yes I'd say Dabo knows all


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 8:25 AM
    Reply

I think everyone on this board save maybe JHop agrees what Dabo is doing is unreal and I couldn’t be happier. However, that doesn’t mean he is above question when things that concern me arise.

I agree 2020 from what I read is shaping up to be the best class ever. Makes me feel good 2-3 years down the road when they mature on the OL. I’m just pointing out the fact we have not recruited with high numbers and quality talent on OL these last 3 classes. It is a cause for concern if an injury happens or a player doesn’t pan out. Even the best evaluators miss on OL.

Like the poster below stated in a way better than me.... our biggest concerning this team is safety where we missed the last few years and went lower down our board. Same thing with OL the last few years and I hope it doesn’t tear its ugly head.


Re: We legit have people b^%#ching about O-line recruiting


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 9:35 AM
    Reply

"we are hoping to sign a kid who Syracuse projects as a Dline. If that doesn’t scream project I don’t know what does."

So because Syracuse thinks a kid is a d-lineman, we are in trouble for recruiting the same kid on the o-line?

Since when did Syracuse become the default setting for recruiting advice? You trust their evaluation better than our coaches'?

We also signed Dorian O'Daniel who some people projected as a running back. Were we in trouble there?


Re: We legit have people b^%#ching about O-line recruiting


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 11:30 AM
    Reply

Personally I'm hoping that John Simpson sticks around for his senior year. If Simpson stays then we would only be losing Hyatt and Falcinelli. Carman could take over for Hyatt and Cervenka could replace Falcinelli. The depth would potentially become an issue after next year when we would be losing John Simpson, Gage Cervenka, Tremayne Anchrum and Sean Pollard all in the same year.

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Re: We legit have people b^%#ching about O-line recruiting

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2018 7:53 AM
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Having concerns about the OL future has nothing to do with our current status. Could not be happier about the current team. However if you do think that the future OL will be a problem your wrong. Paying attention to recruiting is part of being fans.


Re: We legit have people b^%#ching about O-line recruiting

[2]
Posted: Dec 11, 2018 7:56 AM
    Reply

The biggest hurdle to winning another natty is the safety position. Why? Because we missed on key guys and did not have a fallback plan in place. Just like the current OL situation. If we sign two this year we are likely to see the impact in 3020 and 2021.


Re: We legit have people b^%#ching about O-line recruiting

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2018 8:07 AM
    Reply

I'm pretty sure the coaches put a lot of effort into getting OL so it must be important to them too. I think a lot of the frustrations stem from UGA signing 5 stars that will be 3 deep on the depth chart and we can only pull one every other year.


Re: We legit have people b^%#ching about O-line recruiting


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 8:37 AM
    Reply

I guess the question is; do we have an elite OL? We have had issues with our DBs, but we have some talented young DBs on the team (and more coming). I think many of us compare the talent and depth we have at DL and compare it to OL. We also lost a few good OL recruits to UGA that would really help us.

We will know how our OL stacks up when we play Bama. More to be heard.


georgia sux who cares


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 8:38 AM
    Reply

they are back on the couch watching Clemson like normal

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and even when Zack Bailey went to U5C...and knew they would


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 9:00 AM
    Reply

stink.


Re: We legit have people b^%#ching about O-line recruiting


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 8:29 AM
    Reply

Maybe.

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Those 2 topics are joined at the hip

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2018 8:52 AM
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When the worst thing fans can talk about is that one of our position groups has a less than stellar incoming class, then we must be about to win the Natty.

I look forward to the problems Bama fans have with other SEC teams' fans saying "Roll Tide!"

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Well you do realize once we signed our first 5* OL Hyatt

[2]
Posted: Dec 11, 2018 8:58 AM
    Reply

we've been in the CFP each of his 4 years. OL line recruiting is critical to sustained runs of consistency. And missing on guys that could help solidify a consistent offensive line is/can be a problem. ANd it's always been a hard ask for clemson to get these stud recruits to come here. I just wonder why it is. U5c gets as many elite lineman as we get and they win 6 games a year. UGA has elite lineman riding the bench as second string. While they could come to Clemson and possibly start on day one like Mitch did. Its just puzzling. Its not really a coaches fault i don't think its just a perception or theres gotta be some kinda dig that recruiters from other schools use against Clemson..just wondering what it is.


Re: Well you do realize once we signed our first 5* OL Hyatt


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 9:16 AM
    Reply

Having a stud LT is huge. That's why they always go so high in the draft. We were so blessed to get Hyatt. You are very correct. Hopefully Jackson Carman can do the same.

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Re: Well you do realize once we signed our first 5* OL Hyatt


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 9:28 AM
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The most obvious place to look for why we seem to have a high percentage of OL misses is that we are getting "outworked" on the recruiting trail. Dabo delegates a lot of recruiting responsibility/accountability to his position coaches . In this case, Caldwell and Pearman. Over the years, Pearman has never seemed to be out front in securing any of the big name prospects. This is surprising given that his recruiting territory is in a prime North Carolina area. Caldwell is a very good position coach, but could be a little less aggressive than some of his counterparts at UGA, Bama, and others. Good coaches don't always make good recruiters.


Re: We legit have people b^%#ching about O-line recruiting


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 9:04 AM
    Reply

It's simple, really..

You're GOING to lose 5* lineman from time to time to UGA, Alabama, etc.
It's not particularly an indictment on Clemson, as I'm sure they'd LOVE to be able to recruit QB's and WR's like we do.

Clemson has shown a particular fondness to finding "project" lineman and cross training them at multiple positions to help with depth. Do I think this benefits every lineman? No. But, it does help for the greater good of the team. The simple fact that they turned Cervenka into not only a center and guard after growing up playing DT says something. Clemson also isnt afraid of taking a 3* lineman and DEVELOPING them into a quality football player. Not all of them end up being Mitch Hyatt's or Eric Mac Lain or Jay Guillermo, but I'd say most of them have turned out well over the past 10 years, and especially the last 5.

I think we assume that we should be recruiting and landing all 5* players across the board, but that just isn't the reality. Clemson has done what it's done without landing 5 5* lineman while UGA HAS done that and JUST NOW benefiting from it. UGA has been recruiting lineman like that forever and a half.

We will land some OL. The early signing period is soon and I'm betting we flip at least one kid. Not only that, but we will end up getting more before the February signing day. Just don't be super disappointed if they are only 3* - 4* guys.


I think OL recruiting is an area of concern right now (long)

[4]
Posted: Dec 11, 2018 9:15 AM
    Reply

I'm not losing my mind over it by any means, but it's something that could hamper us in 2020 and beyond.

We lose 3 scholarship OL at the end of this year, and 5 more after 2019 (assuming none of them leave early this year). That's literally half of the scholarship OL on the roster right now (see below). This is what we've signed in the last 2 years plus have committed this year:

2017 - 3 OL signed // one 4* (Bockhorst) and two 3* (Dehond and Vinson)
2018 - 2 OL signed // one 5* (Carman) and one 3* (Mcfadden)
2019 - 1 OL signed // one 3* (Rayburn)

You can argue over the quality and whether or not stars really matter at all, especially at the OL position which seems to be the most difficult to project, but the more pressing matter is that we just haven't signed enough guys over the last three cycles.

We currently have 16 OL on scholarship, 15 of which were recruited plus Pat Godfrey who walked on and earned one. That's a pretty good number of guys to have at the OL position and that means signing around 3-4 per class on average. A decent number of OL stay 5 years and I would say most stick around with the program at least 4, but you do get the occasional Fruhmorgen. If the average OL stays with the program for 4-4.5 years that means you need to sign an average of around 3.5 per year. Right now over the previous 3 cycles we are averaging 2 per year, which if continued would mean about 8-9 scholarship OL on the roster at any given time. That obviously can't continue.

Now where i would argue the star rankings actually do come into play is when it comes to how quickly an OL prospect can contribute, assuming they aren't just a bust. It's obviously not an exact science, but a 5* OL is typically going to be able to make a significant contribution in year 2 (Carman?), and possibly even in year 1 (Hyatt). A 4* OL prospect is rarely going to contribute in year 1, but should be able to make a significant contribution by year 2 or 3. A 3* you hope will be able to contribute as an upperclassman, and, at least at a playoff program like Clemson, a 2* is purely a project player that you hope develops into something, but may never see any significant action. I think Cade Stewart is the only 2* OL we've signed in the last 5-6 years.

The reason it's important to have 15 or 16 OL on scholarship, especially when many of them aren't blue chip recruits, and also why it's pretty important to spread them out fairly evenly throughout classes, is that like half of the OL on the roster at any given time will still be in the developmental stage of their career and not really ready to make significant contributions on a playoff caliber team.

Right now 2020 and beyond looks kind of scary. Of the 6 guys we've signed or currently have committed in the 2017-19 cycles, you would expect about 3-4 of them to be ready to contribute in 2020. Most likely Carman and Bockhorst and then hopefully a couple in the Dehond/Vinson/McFadden group. The only guys ahead of them that will still be on the roster in 2020, assuming they both stick around, are Chandler Reeves and Cade Stewart who will both be 5th year SRs. And you can't just sign OL in 2020 and expect them to help as true freshman. Maybe you get lucky and land one 5* that can, but it's not something you want to bank on. Even this year's class doesn't look like it will have any OL that will be ready to contribute in 2020 or possibly even in 2021 for that matter.

I have no reason not to trust Dabo and company to find a solution, but i think the problems (or at least the potential for problems) are real.


Re: I think OL recruiting is an area of concern right now (long)

[1]
Posted: Dec 11, 2018 9:47 AM
    Reply

I'm on board with everything you say except your assumption that 4 star guys won't help until their 2nd year at best and 3 star guys won't help until their 3rd year at best.

Pollard 4* contributed as a freshman, starter as a sophomore
Simpson 4* played a back up role as a freshman, was ready year 2 as you said
Anchrum 3* contributed as a freshman, starter as a sophomore (completely breaks your rule)

Also Carman could have easily been our left tackle this year if he isn't playing behind Hyatt, so saying that he is taking until year 2 to be ready is not exactly accurate. We didn't need him to start.

Also if you have 12 guys on scholarship and are trying to sign 3-4 more, then you aren't likely going to get the big time guys to sign with your team. 2020 is a huge year for o-line recruiting. Putnam would be a very good get, but I'm not convinced he is coming.


I said it's an inexact science - certainly not a rule.


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 9:57 AM
    Reply

There are always going to be a handful of guys that are either ahead of or behind the curve.


Re: I think OL recruiting is an area of concern right now (long)


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 9:48 AM
    Reply

So many of these OL in HS have so much room to grow too. SOme are full grown at 16/17 and some it's 19/20/21. I think with OL star ratings aren't quite as meaningful overall as they are with a WR. There are some slam dunk OT's here ad there, but just generally I think it is harder to rate who is going to be a great OL out of HS.

2019 white level member

Re: I think OL recruiting is an area of concern right now (long)

[2]
Posted: Dec 11, 2018 10:04 AM
    Reply

Combine that with so many high schools who run triple option or have very little o-line coaching due to lack of resources.

It is a very difficult position to project by people who know what they are looking for, let alone recruiting services who just looks at raw numbers and try to move guys based off of offers.


Re: I think OL recruiting is an area of concern right now (long)


Posted: Dec 11, 2018 10:09 AM
    Reply

Totally agree. It's amazing how many undersized/oversized and undisciplined kids come out of HS not ready because of the offenses they run in HS.

The elite guys that are every bit of the 5* they have usually come from bigger schools with more college level offensive schemes, and they also usually have preconceived notions of where they should go to school BEFORE they even graduate HS.


I agree, but i think the OL rankings tend to line up more

[3]
Posted: Dec 11, 2018 10:09 AM
    Reply

with where the players are in their development rather than how good they can ultimately be by the end of their college careers. I know that's a factor at all positions, but it seems to be even more for OL prospects.


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