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All-In [46801]
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Sleepy Joe with the bandaid instead of the cure
Nov 17, 2020, 10:06 AM
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He is thinking about issuing an E.O to forgive 10K of federal student loan debt per person. Schumer is saying 50K.
Either way, it should not cost two year's worth of entry level salary to get a college education.
Will student debt forgiveness jolt our economy to life? Probably.
Will it solve the underlying issue? No.
It's like putting a bandied on a gunshot wound.
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All-In [46801]
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This may be a dumb idea, but when has that ever stopped me
Nov 17, 2020, 10:10 AM
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Tech/Trade schools: Free to go (keep the rigor).
State schools that receive public funds: Capped at a percentage of the states median income level
Private schools: Whatever price they want.
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All-TigerNet [11626]
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No one forced you to choose a major....
Nov 17, 2020, 10:16 AM
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That costs two years salary. That's a personal choice.
Why should taxpayers bail out the loan choices of individuals?
I want a $5 Million home, but not the debt to go with it. Why don't taxpayers bail me out there?
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All-In [26968]
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All spending by government is done, theoretically,
Nov 17, 2020, 10:19 AM
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to better the country. If this spending would better the country, it should be considered. If not, then it shouldn't.
I don't really buy into the philosophy of "this is my money paying them" or whatever. I pay my taxes as I'm supposed to. Government spends money as they need to. Once I pay my taxes, it's no longer my money.
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110%er [8947]
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Re: All spending by government is done, theoretically,
Nov 17, 2020, 10:25 AM
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sounds like a robbery
"Once I pay my taxes, it's no longer my money."
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All-In [26968]
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It's just logic to me. I no longer have the money.
Nov 17, 2020, 10:44 AM
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It is no longer my money. I do not possess it.
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Legend [17758]
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Sounds biblical
Nov 17, 2020, 11:56 AM
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Then Jesus said to them, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him.
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All-In [26968]
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And people still seem amazed at it sometimes.***
Nov 17, 2020, 1:54 PM
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All-TigerNet [13027]
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Re: All spending by government is done, theoretically,
Nov 17, 2020, 10:25 AM
[ in reply to All spending by government is done, theoretically, ] |
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Why not use that money to pay off mortgages. Let idiots with worthless degrees have bad credit, to stymie their terrible choices. Way better for the economy.
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110%er [7191]
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Where do people come up with this stuff?
Nov 17, 2020, 10:37 AM
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Today's talking point seems to be that if you have student loan debt, you must have some degree that doesn't make you hirable. No, no you dumb ####### idiot. The people with student loan debt are distributed among all majors, they just don't come from wealth.
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All-TigerNet [13027]
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Re: Where do people come up with this stuff?
Nov 17, 2020, 10:42 AM
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Those that are hirable, can pay their own debt. DUMFK.
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110%er [7191]
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Re: Where do people come up with this stuff?
Nov 17, 2020, 10:50 AM
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Or instead of student loan debt they can spend that money on something else like housing or put it in savings or invest it.
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All-TigerNet [13027]
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Re: Where do people come up with this stuff?
Nov 17, 2020, 10:53 AM
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or instead of paying my mortgage, I could do the same as you listed above. Sorry, I worked my way through Clemson and paid very little to student loans, so I have little sympathy.
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110%er [7191]
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All-TigerNet [13027]
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Re: Is "I have little sympathy" the same as #### other people?
Nov 17, 2020, 11:02 AM
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Have you used your extra money to pay a strangers student debts? Are you a hypocrite? yes...yes you are.
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Legend [19889]
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Re: All spending by government is done, theoretically,
Nov 17, 2020, 10:27 AM
[ in reply to All spending by government is done, theoretically, ] |
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I tend to think of it differently.
Once the Government has STOLEN MY HARD EARNED MONEY.....................
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All-TigerNet [11626]
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You want to bail people out....
Nov 17, 2020, 10:42 AM
[ in reply to All spending by government is done, theoretically, ] |
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Then let's do like many countries do and only do that for certain majors. Or severely limit enrollment in non-productive majors.
If you want to make a betterment for the country argument, I can get behind that. But taxpayer money isn't going to fund Gender Studies or similar programs that have almost zero economic opportunity to contribute back to society.
Put the money toward STEM majors, Nursing, etc.
Or better yet, let's fund 2-year Tech schools first. Once those jobs are staffed, we can expand.
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All-In [26968]
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I definitely did not say I thought it was a good idea.***
Nov 17, 2020, 10:42 AM
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Lot o points [155707]
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Why shouldn’t it cost that much?
Nov 17, 2020, 10:43 AM
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Average person is going to work 45 years, so assuming you never get a raise in your life, do you know of any other investments with a virtually guaranteed 2250% ROI?
As others have said, if you choose majors wisely and are a solid employee over your career, that investment ROI is many, many times higher.
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All-In [31864]
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I actually (and this is hard to type) agree with the OP....
Nov 17, 2020, 11:40 AM
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at least in regards to addressing student loan debt instead of addressing the cost of 4-year degree at a public university is not addressing the problem at all. I believe I've made that same point a number of times on here over the years.
I don't think it makes sense to say it "should" cost that much to get a degree because of the earning potential. I think we need to look at what can be done to reduce the cost of a public university education.
If you take Clemson as an example, in-state tuition is about $16k/year and out-of-state is about $38k/year. When you add in living expenses (room and board, etc...) that estimate is that it costs about $125k for a 4-year degree in-state. I think there are a few issues that could be addressed:
1- administration overhead costs
2- standard of living costs - students are now living a higher standard of living than they are going to be able to live when they get out of school and saddled with the debt they've accrued.
3- cost of research, etc - I don't know as much about this, but my gut tells me that a lot of the research-type activities are being subsidized by the under-grad tuition revenue. Once again...just a gut fell and have no data to support it.
4- technology - "keeping up with the Jones'" impact. For a lot of majors, from my perspective, the quality of the education hasn't really gone up, but the cost to deliver that education via technology has gone up a lot. If you take Electrical Engineering as an example, the students are basically taking the same class line up as when I was there 25-30 yrs ago, but it's costing a lot more to deliver that education. They have "nicer labs" and a lot of on-line options, wired classrooms, etc...but they're still learning the same basics that haven't changed in 50 years. I say that understanding that some majors/fields of study may have changed a lot or require a lot of new tech.
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Lot o points [155707]
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I agree that it is ridiculous overall
Nov 17, 2020, 12:47 PM
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The big issue that you left out is government guarantees of student loans, and forcing private enterprise out of the student loan game. Colleges are happy to charge what the market will bear, without an ounce of shame, and when uncle Sugar bastardizes what the “market” is willing to grossly inflate what someone can be lent to go to college, it’s a seller’s market. Baylor sent my son a mailer last week and had the nerve to proclaim “great value!” and then list approximately $64k/year in attendance costs.
Back to the original post though, Clemson was dirt cheap when I graduated in 1998 at 3k/ year tuition, and under $5k all in with housing and food. Feels as though $15k/year should be a fair sweet spot.
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All-In [31864]
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Yes...no doubt about the free funding driving...
Nov 17, 2020, 1:58 PM
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up the price. I should have included that.
The federal backing of student loans drives more people to college (demand) without placing a value check on the whole thing. Demand goes up and the "consumer" doesn't "care" what it costs.
And agreed on the $15k/year sweet spot in today's money. But students have to be willing to live like I, and maybe you, lived. Meaning not with leather couches and 60 in flat screens and no sharing bathrooms, etc and not eating sushi and poke and other BS.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Yes...no doubt about the free funding driving...
Nov 17, 2020, 2:12 PM
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All-In [31864]
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Yep, and graduates come out with loan balances...
Nov 17, 2020, 3:24 PM
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that equate to a starter home mortgage and it takes them 10 years to dig out of it and most choose to go more into consumer debt.
I bet 15 yrs after graduation, having their own room and bathroom with other fancy accommodations while they were in college don't seem like a very good value/decision.
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110%er [7191]
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All-In [31864]
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what a perverted way of looking at the issue....
Nov 17, 2020, 10:52 AM
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First, the most recent tax cut didn't only go to 600 billionaires.
Second, where the heck did the $1.7 TT figure come from?
Third, the government taking less of someone's income is not comparable to the government(meaning those same people as just mentioned) PAYING for something for someone else (I would add paying for someone's mistakes, but that's just my opinion).
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Legend [19889]
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Re: Sleepy Joe with the bandaid instead of the cure
Nov 17, 2020, 10:54 AM
[ in reply to Re: Sleepy Joe with the bandaid instead of the cure ] |
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Will he give the $$$ back to those of us who paid our own way years ago?
What about the people who wanted to GI to college but couldn't afford it or hardships kept them from it... will they get an equivalent amount too?
Etc., etc., etc.....
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Hall of Famer [24457]
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Govt money is what made it cost so much. More will
Nov 17, 2020, 10:56 AM
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make it worse.
I'll give you a one time student debt reduction in return for three things:
- Govt immediately gets out of student loan business.
- That money is found elsewhere (cant keep adding to $27 Trillion debt).
- The students cant get a free gift. They have to do something (service, etc).
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Govt money is what made it cost so much. More will
Nov 17, 2020, 12:14 PM
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CU Medallion [56005]
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Student loan forgiveness addresses a symptom instead of the
Nov 17, 2020, 11:11 AM
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problem.
The problem is the exorbitant cost of higher education.
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110%er [7191]
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Re: Student loan forgiveness addresses a symptom instead of the
Nov 17, 2020, 11:51 AM
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As much fun as comprehensive education reform would be, it's probably too complicated to address all at once. Forgiving student loans is salient because it's a great way to stimulate the economy.
Going forward I think a great way of tackling both issues at once is having federal grants that pay for undergrad and grad school in high needs area (med school/nursing seems topical), but only at institutions that meet certain criteria. Maybe tie tuition to inflation or come up with some other cap. As a GI Bill recipient, I also like the idea of workers in other industries (again doctors and nurses come to mind) seeing education benefits after x years of work. I know there is already something for loan forgiveness if you're a federal/state employee.
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All-In [46801]
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Re: Student loan forgiveness addresses a symptom instead of the
Nov 17, 2020, 12:34 PM
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Your last line is a joke.
Yeah there's suppose to be a student loan forgiveness program for teachers who teach in high need areas.
What they don't tell you is the company will do everything possible to ensure that you will never qualify for the forgiveness. They will find any excuse in the book to make sure you pay every dime back even though that's not the deal you made.
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All-In [46801]
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All-In [34100]
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Not just a symptom
Nov 17, 2020, 12:26 PM
[ in reply to Student loan forgiveness addresses a symptom instead of the ] |
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Student loans are actually part of the problem. It leads people to pay more for tuition than they might be wiling to. If the loans weren't bankruptcy-proof, no bank would offer low rates, and most students would be huge risks. Fewer people being willing to shell out big bucks would force lower tuition through the basic law of supply and demand.
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Hall of Famer [24457]
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The latter caused the former, I think. I think it's pretty
Nov 17, 2020, 1:15 PM
[ in reply to Student loan forgiveness addresses a symptom instead of the ] |
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well documented that adding tons of dollars to that market has exploded the cost. An Econ 101 student could have predicted it.
The predictions were, in fact, made. This article is one of many. I regret the anti-Obama tone of the writing, but the points of the article are well founded because what it addressed then is happening now.
This problem is not likely to be solved. Many of us remember tuitions that any student who wanted to go to college could come up with, somehow. The 'poor Johnny cant go to college' idea was used to sell a loans-for-everybody solution, rather than a targeted approach. We now have this situation. Unwinding and rethinking is the thing to do, but that very rarely happens with govt programs, The solution will ultimately be a govt takeover of the finest and most available higher education network the world had ever produced. Rather than solve the problem the govt will just buy it, at many more dollars than we are paying now.
As the article said, the actual amount paid by students has hardly moved. What has changed is the amount owed.
https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/obama-created-student-loan-crisis-with-1-trillion-in-loans/
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CU Guru [1669]
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Re: Sleepy Joe with the bandaid instead of the cure
Nov 17, 2020, 12:19 PM
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Will I get compensated for paying for my kid’s education rather than them take out a loan? This is total BS.
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110%er [7191]
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Re: Sleepy Joe with the bandaid instead of the cure
Nov 17, 2020, 12:24 PM
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Nobody else gets #### unless I get something as well.
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Letterman [257]
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CU Medallion [59982]
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look at me! I signed up for something that I dont want
Nov 17, 2020, 2:13 PM
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to pay back!
No one told me teachers made chicken feed money. I was sold on the idea that I could get rich being a teacher.
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