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Topic: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team
Replies: 131   Last Post: May 12, 2020, 10:00 PM by: Rw43
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Replies: 131  

Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[2]
Posted: May 9, 2020, 11:22 PM
 

Separation of church and state, you know.

link

No, I don't, but when Gov't declares Anglicans their only...

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Posted: May 9, 2020, 11:24 PM
 

I'll pay closer attention.

I do hate stupid people, so I appreciate you reminding me.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[1]
Posted: May 9, 2020, 11:35 PM
 



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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[2]
Posted: May 9, 2020, 11:52 PM
 

Lord Lord Lord. And I mean this as a prayer.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

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Posted: May 9, 2020, 11:54 PM
 

Courts have consistently ruled that ‘separation of church and state’ does not require state employees to be or act like atheists.

State employees have the right to practice their religion in a way that doesn’t infringe on others’ rights to do the same.

Since the ultra liberal Warren court, NO ONE has interpreted the First Amendment like you just did, except for people ignorant of the law. Unfortunately there are still a lot of lazy professors teaching their lazy students that lazy concept, that religion has been outlawed in government employment. Nothing is further from the truth. Dabo knows his rights better than you do.

In fact, public employees have MORE guaranteed freedom to practice religion than private sector employees do. Even though a public sector employee has limits on how aggressively he/she can practice their religion, particularly from a supervisory position, the right to practice the religion cannot be deprived by any supervisor to any employee. Period.

In the private sector, any boss can deny religious speech they disagree with, so long as they follow due process.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[2]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 9:04 AM
 

RW,

I have no problem with Dabo being a Christian, but when he (an employee of the state) proselytizes to his players then he has overstepped his job.

"If I get a young man that comes to Clemson and he doesn't know anything or he's searching and I don't cultivate that . . . Shame on me"

And here is how you can tell that he is overstepping. If we were talking about a muslim coach pushing his religion to his players, many of y'all would go ballistic. Just because you believe the same as the coach doesn't make it right.

Again, I have no problem with a coach BEING a Christian and I don't expect him to hide that fact. But he doesn't get to preach Christianity to his subordinates.

I am even fine with him letting his little light shine and inspiring people with his example, but he does not get to proselytize to hos players. That does not interfere with his religious freedom. I think the Supreme Court has agreed with that.

link

Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

emoji_events [10]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 9:18 AM
 

All of the kids who end up signing with Clemson know where Dabo Swinney is as a leader , where he is as a proponent of Christian belief .
In your response to RW you made it sound almost like they were being misled in a way , I think that's unlikely if not nearly impossible .
If the gang want to be in your gang because they like your gang's ways , then everyone else can go kick rocks .
Nobody's getting hurt here , and no laws are being broken .

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DB23


Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 2:02 PM
 

Tigerdug,

My impression of you has been that you are willing to give the other guy his due.

What about the player who wants to come to Clemson University, but is of a different persuasion and is uncomfortable with the Christian proselytizing of the coaching staff. Does he have to choose between his conscience and the school he wants to attend ?

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

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Posted: May 10, 2020, 2:57 PM
 

If only there had been non-Christian players under Dabo that made statements on that very topic to inform your ignorance.

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dhg

Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team


Posted: May 10, 2020, 4:23 PM
 

You’ve said this before.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 9:16 PM
 

Dabo is only doing what God tells us to do as good Christians. He tells us to go and spread his word and to share the gospel with as many people as we can. Sorry if you don't believe all of it, but one day EVERY person will bow and proclaim Jesus Christ the son of God.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[1]
Posted: May 11, 2020, 9:39 AM
 

Maybe so. I know friends of mine who declined employment or left a job because of the environment they were working in.

This is why ever player is not a good fit for Clemson. I am positive they know the culture of the program and Dabo’s strong Christian Faith early in the recruiting process. I would have to say without a doubt that Dabo has a successful formula. The results speak for themselves. Just take a close look at Dabo’s success on and off the field.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team


Posted: May 11, 2020, 9:45 AM
 

He might . It's a very personal and important thing , spirituality.
I'm not saying that you're wrong in what it is that your hitting on here , but it's probably equally true that there isn't really anything being done by Dabo and Clemson football that justifies any action by either the NCAA or any othe governing body .
Whether we agree with it or not , no harm no foul in this thing is how I interpret it .

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DB23


Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[2]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 1:19 PM
 

Just be happy we have a good football team and that players leave as better men ready for life. I am not religious, but who cares if others are. Whatever makes people happy and grounded.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team


Posted: May 10, 2020, 2:46 PM
 

Carlsbad

I don't care what others believe, unless they use their position of power to proselytize to their subordinates. Then I do.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[2]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 2:48 PM
 

People make their own choices. They are adults on the team generally. They can become religious or not. Nobody gets hurt.

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I get where you're coming from, but it's a catch-22

[2]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 5:06 PM
 

God has been very clear in His Word that He wants us to go forth and spread the Word. As Christians, part of our duty is to try to reach as many people as possible in sharing the word of God.

It would be an infringement on Dabo;s religious freedoms to not allow him to fully practice his faith. The most important aspect to his faith is that he spread the good word and not turn his back on his God. Dabo has made promises to God to do so. You can't force him to break a promise to God.

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Re: I get where you're coming from, but it's a catch-22

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 8:32 PM
 

Willard

If he doesn't want to break his promise - he could coach a church team.

link

So, you would fire him for being Christian?


Posted: May 11, 2020, 9:51 PM
 

Seems unconstitutional. But, I'm no professor.

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Re: I get where you're coming from, but it's a catch-22

[1]
Posted: May 11, 2020, 3:46 PM
 

????????????????????

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Wow. Use the tablet for a few other things and the whole

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Posted: May 10, 2020, 8:22 PM
 

thread blows up.

Tobias, congratulations on your impressive credentials. I respect your accomplishments, even while I wonder what you’ve done with them.

I’m not responding to this entire thread, but just the one you directed to me. I probably won’t be able to match your smug, condescending tone, but I’ll do my best to demonstrate that you are incorrect in your assumption that every smart person should know that “separation of church and state” should prevent Dabo from sharing the Gospel with players who seek spiritual help.

You write: ‘I have no problem with Dabo being a Christian’—that’s good, but your acceptance of an act of God is irrelevant to everyone but you; why not say something equally irrelevant like, ‘I have no problem with it raining tomorrow‘? Neither Dabo nor God asked for your approval.

You write: ‘but when he (an employee of the state) proselytizes to his players then he has overstepped his job.’

“‘If I get a young man that comes to Clemson and he doesn’t know anything or he’s searching and I don’t cultivate that...shame on me.’”—Two responses: 1) why did you intentionally misstate Dabo’s intentions? The word “proselytize” means to attempt to convert a person who currently practices one faith to another, yet Dabo clearly gave an example of “evangelizing” someone who is searching, not “proselytizing” someone who practices a different faith.

Please don’t try to tell me you didn’t know there was a difference. You misstated it in order to demonstrate that IN YOUR OPINION, there is no difference.

If you truly believe that a young man who is searching should not be allowed to hear spiritual good news from someone who can help him, in a free society that will gladly give him all the bad news and bad advice he can handle— then you need to come to Jesus yourself before you set foot in the classroom again. Seriously? A young man wants help, and you don’t think he should be allowed to get it from his coach?

2) if you are concerned about potential coercion, your concern is potentially valid. That’s why the limitations exist. I think even Dabo and Kathleen would admit that 11 years ago, his zeal to help young men might have occasionally gone beyond the fuzzy line of the limitations, and if he were coaching at a high-visibility program like an SEC or Big Ten school his words and actions would have been more heavily scrutinized. But that was a long time ago, and Dabo has gotten lots of good legal advice from people way more qualified than you in order to refine his program and methods.

You write: ‘And here is how you can tell he is overstepping. If we were talking about a Muslim coach pushing his religion to his players, many of y’all would go ballistic. Just because you believe the same as the coach doesn’t make it right.’—This is fallacious. Because we agree with his faith, he must be wrong? Those must be some interesting classes you teach.

Are you saying that our agreement with him must inevitably empower him to abuse his position? As though he has no accountability to DRad, the President, the BoT or the taxpayers of SC: Dabo’s only spiritual accountability is to the fans of Tigernet. Whatever your point is, the logical step you skipped in explaining it is fallacious.

I agree with you on what you’re possibly implying, but not on the reason: if we had a Muslim coach, or a Wiccan coach sharing their faith with our searching young men, many of us would freak out. But we would never try to say that coach didn’t have a constitutional right to believe AND SHARE their faiths. We would suggest—legally—that our coach needs to represent the values of the community in order for us to support him. That might result in the clearest dialogue on faith the academic community has ever heard.

You write: ‘Again, I have no problem with a coach BEING a Christian and I don’t expect him to hide that fact. But he doesn’t get to preach Christianity to his subordinates.’—So you again condescend to letting a Dabo be whatever he wants to be, so long as he keeps it private.

You write: ‘I am even fine with him letting his little light shine and inspiring people with his example, but he does not get to proselytize to his players. That does not interfere with his religious freedom. I think the Supreme Court has agreed with that.’—Condescension #3. His LITTLE light? No, Dabo’s light shines coast to coast, in households of recruits and fans and even rival fans, on ESPN and FoxSports and CBS, in the White House and the doghouse, because he serves Christ. The little light would be yours, because whatever your faith is, you hide it under a bushel. (Unless you’re a nonbeliever; then it’s understandable why there is no light to shine, bushel or no bushel.) And again, you misuse ‘proselytize’.

Put simply, Evangelism is a central tenet of the a Christian faith. Therefore, it is unreasonable to expect a Christian to abstain from evangelism. Having said that, a state employee must honor the free expression of all faiths, and those with authority must communicate by word and action that no one under their authority will gain or suffer from their response or lack of response to faith.

Your entire argument is based on the presumption of coercion. This is legally untenable. It is a 50-year old presumption with lots of evidence to the contrary.

link

Who are you to tell anyone...


Posted: May 10, 2020, 11:31 PM
 

what they can talk about, preach about or debate about? And who are you to tell a coach that he can’t have a relationship with his assistants or his players which includes discussion of spiritual issues? Dabo isn’t forcing anyone to believe as he believes or worship as he worships. Do you hear anyone associated with the football program claiming they were in any way coerced into religion?? No, you have not.

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@RW - the OP is obviously a troll, but it did remind me of

[3]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 11:02 AM
 

what my daddy (the Rev) used to say: "I'm less concerned with schools taking school sponsored prayer away from schools, but more concerned about parents removing parent sponsored prayers from their homes."

He also used to say: "In order to have free practice of religion, we have to put up with a lot of junk..."

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Re: @RW - the OP is obviously a troll, but it did remind me of


Posted: May 10, 2020, 12:08 PM
 

Amen! I was raised in a Christian home and was forced at times to attend church as a kid when I would have rather played with my friends.

Mom ( Now in the Presence of God ) and Dad thank you for forcing me to do things you knew were so important in my future. I did not see them as being important as a young kid but I learned there importance when I accepted Christ as my Savior at 12 years old. It changed my life forever.

It is really sad that kids are not exposed to the Bible as I was growing up. We are now suffering the consequences for turning our backs on God with Hurricanes, severe storms, pandemic’s, crime, immoral lifestyles like that of Harvey Weinstein and other perverted people, child molesters, murders, and other crimes.

There are many false religions, false pastors, people who claim to kill in God’s name but are wrong.

I remember having religious programs even through HS. My kids were fortunate to have attended an elementary school where the principal was a very good Christian man. Every morning he would sit out front no matter the weather and greet every kid who attended that school. He know most every child by name as well as the parents to. He had a positive impact on many people. You don’t see those type of schools anymore. And many kids do not get Biblically feed at home either.

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Re: @RW - the OP is obviously a troll, but it did remind me of


Posted: May 10, 2020, 8:46 PM
 

I have a Muslim friend named Gabriel who invited me to visit his mosque for a tour.

We even knelt in the back while they were saying the 2 pm prayers—I truly hadn’t realized Mecca was <
I told him that he knew I was a Christian. How would all of his co-worshippers feel if I prayed in English in the name of Jesus? About what my Christian brethren would think if he came to our church and prayed in memorized Arabic to Allah during our Sunday service!

I am 100% in favor of EVERYONE practicing their faith freely. I believe that is what the Founders intended.

However, my Christian faith also says that Jesus is the Son of God and the only Way to heaven. So I recognize that each person has the right to choose their faith—including None—without that affecting my belief and responsibility to share the one Way to the Father. Dabo CANNOT just shut up and enjoy his faith selfishly. Neither should any Christian.

Most Christians understand this. It is outsiders who pretend we are childish in these thought processes.


Even the patron saint of the anti faith community, Thomas Jefferson, appealed to our Creator for the rights to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness and the right to rebel against tyranny. He also believed “I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much Liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.” Freedom of religion was one of the primary liberties he was referring to.

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Well, if his schooling of U of SC is any indication, he

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 12:22 AM
 

would do an excellent job.....

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Maybe you can point me to where and in which constitution

[3]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 1:05 AM
 

the phrase "separation of church and state" is used?

I'll give you a hint--it is not the US of A Constitution.

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Re: Maybe you can point me to where and in which constitution

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Posted: May 10, 2020, 7:23 AM
 

The original poster is under the age of 30 guaranteed. Has been spoon fed a falsehood about the constitution and has never taken the time the check the activist professor. If he’s older , well then bless his little uneducated heart.

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He should check out the 1936 USSR Constitution, specifically

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 8:32 AM
 

ARTICLE 124.
"In order to ensure to citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the state, and the school from the church. Freedom of religious worship and freedom of antireligious propaganda is recognized for all citizens."

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Re: Maybe you can point me to where and in which constitution


Posted: May 10, 2020, 9:27 AM
 

Well Tardog, I am not sure how you could be wrong on so many things in such a short post.

I am over sixty and of an independent and inquisitive mind.

My bachelor's degree is in the Social Sciences with a strong dose of both American History and American Government. I am a James Madison Fellow and as such studied Political Science at the graduate level at the University of Georgia. I have spent 22 years studying and teaching American Government, Macroeconomics, American History, and Psychology at the high school and college levels.

Perhaps you could explain to us how you came by your understanding of the US Constitution.

link

You must be in academia. Only those in academia can't seem

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Posted: May 10, 2020, 9:42 AM
 

to understand the plain language of the constitution......putting words into it and interpreting it as if it is written in a foreign language.

Message was edited by: TigerFanX2000®


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Nailed it

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 11:56 AM
 

Sad thing is he is equally clueless about the economics that he teaches as well. I’ve decided that he’s just a guy that is bitter about a lot of things in life.

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Re: Nailed it


Posted: May 10, 2020, 2:48 PM
 

T3

Anyone who disagrees with you is stupid and bitter - got it !

link

Penumbras are your favorite, aren’t they?***


Posted: May 10, 2020, 3:00 PM
 



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I don’t think it’s just me


Posted: May 10, 2020, 3:12 PM
 

I haven’t seen anyone agree with you yet.

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Re: You must be in academia. Only those in academia can't seem


Posted: May 10, 2020, 2:04 PM
 

Academia - those guys who have spent their whole lives studying their area of expertise. What a bunch of bozos.

link

the rest of us actally do something***

[2]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 3:27 PM
 



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Re: Maybe you can point me to where and in which constitution

[2]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 9:53 AM
 

Impressive resume, is this the academic version of "lifting free weights"

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Re: Maybe you can point me to where and in which constitution


Posted: May 10, 2020, 10:04 AM
 

I forgot to explain to Tobias how I came to my understanding of the constitution. You asked so here goes. I’m an American patriot who read it!!!

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Re: Maybe you can point me to where and in which constitution


Posted: May 10, 2020, 2:05 PM
 

Do you think that I have not ??

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Re: Maybe you can point me to where and in which constitution

[4]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 3:04 PM
 

It sounds like you have read it, but don’t exactly like what it plainly says.

It sounds like you want things differently but gosh darn it that was made difficult by the Founders for some reason. So you prefer the Black-Robed Activist route of just getting what you want via a few judges.

So, it sounds like you aren’t all in on the US Constitution.

It also sounds like the others here have characterized you correctly.

You would be the one on the right in the picture below:



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dhg

Re: Maybe you can point me to where and in which constitution


Posted: May 10, 2020, 4:38 PM
 

I believe you’re a smug atheist who teaches high school. Do you share your atheist beliefs with the students?

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Re: Maybe you can point me to where and in which constitution


Posted: May 10, 2020, 8:40 PM
 

dhg,

First of all, I wouldn't be so quick to categorize my spiritual beliefs with so little evidence.

Secondly, i do not share my spiritual beliefs with my students - that would violate the separation of church and state.

Thirdly, I DO share my belief in the US Constitution.

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dhg

Re: Maybe you can point me to where and in which constitution


Posted: May 10, 2020, 4:25 PM
 

Did you come to this site just to offend? When you payed out your resume, I didn’t see a Clemson degree or even attendance. Go away. I like dabo!

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Re: Maybe you can point me to where and in which constitution


Posted: May 10, 2020, 8:49 PM
 

1. I only laid out my educational history because someone questioned my knowledge of US History and Government.

2. My Bachelor Degree is from Clemson University. So maybe you should go away.

3. I like Dabo, too. I just don't like him violating the US Constitution.

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Re: Maybe you can point me to where and in which constitution


Posted: May 10, 2020, 9:18 AM
 

SumGuard,

The US Constitution is a very short document - less than 5000 words. Often Constitutional scholars study other writings to clarify or flesh out its meaning - the Federalist Papers, Constitutional Convention diaries, letters of the Founding Fathers, etc. This is where the phrase itself comes from - a letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Baptists of Danbury Connecticut:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties." Thomas Jefferson

I will also point out that the word religion appears only twice in the US Constitution and both times with the word NO attached - "no religious test shall ever be required" (for office)and “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”

One last thing, you know what else is not in the Constitution - the word Bible - not once.



link

Re: Maybe you can point me to where and in which constitution

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Posted: May 10, 2020, 9:38 AM
 

The constitution prohibits the government from enforcing a state religion upon me. It does not allow the government to prohibit my practice of Christianity. It does not and shall not require me to be silent. It is true that the word bible does not appear in the constitution. However, it requires a massive denial to not see the influence of the Bible all over our founding as a nation.

link

Re: Maybe you can point me to where and in which constitution


Posted: May 10, 2020, 2:19 PM
 

Tardog,

I never once suggested that Dabo or you could not be Christians - or that you had to be silent about being Christians. But the article explicitly states that Dabo thinks it is part of his job to turn his players onto Christ. It is not.

Over the years, I have never said a thing about Dabo's well-publicized religion until I read this article which makes it clear that he is proselytizing to his players. Coaches, teachers, & other employees of the state cannot use their positions of power to advance one religion over another. It is now clear that this is what Dabo is doing.

I will repeat - the way that you know this is over the line is that if Dabo was a muslim coach doing exactly what he is admitting to in the article, y'all would be up in arms about him indoctrinating his players.

Tardog, one more thing - I understand how you see the Bible's influence in the Constitution because you seem to think that all truth and justice is derived from the Bible. I disagree. I think it is perfectly possible to be good and just without any reliance on the Bible. I also think that Dabo could help his youngsters grow into fine young men without proselytizing to them.

link

Please don’t fall for his “Bible” red herring.

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 3:09 PM
 

How often does Abortion appear in the Constitution? Yet that completely fabricated “right” is vigorously protected whereas the 2ndA is under constant attack by the very same people that believe abortion is inviolate.

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Re: Please don’t fall for his “Bible” red herring.


Posted: May 10, 2020, 8:51 PM
 

swimming

Actually the right to terminate a pregnancy is covered by the 4th Amendment right to privacy.

link

Totally wrong, again, professor.

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 10:46 PM
 

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularity describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

You know how you were trying to make some point by saying the word “Bible” isn’t in the Constitution?
Well, well.

One last thing, you know what else is not in the Constitution - the word abortion - not once.

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

emoji_events [6]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 9:44 AM
 

or PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF.

Thank you for debunking your own argument.

Dabo has NEVER mandated or even implied that everyone in his program should be a Christian In order to be a part of his program. He also has never backed away from freely exercising his faith either. Unfortunately it seems that the FREE EXERCISE OF HIS FAITH is your problem. I’m sure you’re a decent person but you have really got some things wrong here. You can’t silence people and dictate how they should exercise their beliefs just because you don’t agree with them.

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Re: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion


Posted: May 10, 2020, 2:20 PM
 

16, Please see the above response to Tardog. I don't want to be redundant on this board.

link

You still miss the point.

[3]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 3:12 PM
 

Believing a certain way and trying to win others to your persuasion is what EVERYONE that I have ever known tries to do. It’s what you’re doing right now. The only way you can stop people from doing it is to take away their rights guaranteed in the constitution. Persuading people is not unconstitutional. Mandating that people think the way you think about religion or suffer legal consequence is unconstitutional. Mandating that people think the way you think about religion or suffer consequence within a public organization such as a university or football program is unconstitutional. Dabo has done none of those things. Again, it is not unconstitutional to influence people with who you are and what you believe be it religion or anything else. If you don’t agree with Dabo that’s fine but you have no right to silence him or strip him of his ability to influence people with his faith.

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Re: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion


Posted: May 10, 2020, 8:51 PM
 

hers claim they have a free-speech and free-exercise of religion right to express their religious views; after all, the First Amendment was adopted in part to ensure individual religious freedom. The schools counter that they must silence teachers’ religious expression on school grounds to avoid establishment-clause violations. The schools claim that if a teacher conveys his religious views to a student, a reasonable observer would view that as the state endorsing religion.

The cases outlined here feature the clash between teachers and school officials over teachers’ religious liberty. Federal courts have often sided with school officials, recognizing that public schools, as arms of the government, must take care not to appear to indoctrinate students in religious matters.

The courts have been clear that public school teachers cannot teach religion to their students or read the Bible to the class as a way of promoting their faith. (See Breen v. Runkel, 1985, and Fink v. Board of Education, 1982.) “It is clear that teachers cannot distribute religious material to students, lead students in prayer, join students in Bible readings and encourage students to attend the teachers’ church,” says Jeremy Leaming, spokesman for Americans United for Separation of Church and State. “In the classroom, the job of a teacher is to teach secular subjects.”

In its 1999 decision Marchi v. Board of Cooperative Educational Services, the 2nd Circuit ruled that school officials could order a special education teacher to refrain from using religious references in his instructional programs. Dan Marchi, who converted to Christianity, had modified his teaching program to discuss subjects like God, forgiveness and reconciliation.

“For his part, the employee must accept that he does not retain the full extent of free exercise rights that he would enjoy as private citizen,” the 2nd Circuit wrote. “A school risks violation of the Establishment Clause if any of its teachers’ activities gives the impression that the school endorses religion.”

In Downing v. West Haven Board of Education (2001), a federal district court determined that high school administrators did not violate the First Amendment rights of teacher Ella Downing when they ordered her to remove or cover up a T-shirt reading “JESUS 2000 — J2K.”

“In short, whatever First Amendment rights were implicated by Downing wearing her T-shirt must give way to the defendants’ legitimate concerns about a potential Establishment Clause violation in a public school,” the court wrote.

In Helland v. South Bend Community School Corp. (1996), the 7th Circuit ruled that school officials did not violate the First Amendment rights of a substitute teacher who proselytized in elementary school classrooms. The teacher claimed that school officials removed him from the substitute-teaching list because of his religious beliefs. School officials countered that they had a right to remove the teacher to avoid establishment-clause problems.

The 7th Circuit sided with the school officials: “A school can direct a teacher to refrain from expressions of religious viewpoints in the classroom and like settings.”

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Re: Maybe you can point me to where and in which constitution


Posted: May 10, 2020, 2:01 PM
 

You know who cares about you and what you have to say ..... everyone on this board so go to your little dawggy board and talk about criminal justice they are in real need of that discussion as there are always arrests on the foolsball team!

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Re: Maybe you can point me to where and in which constitution

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 5:36 PM
 

What part of..."shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion" do you not understand??

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When did Dabo become a congressman? News to me.

[3]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 7:31 AM
 

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

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Re: When did Dabo become a congressman? News to me.


Posted: May 10, 2020, 9:20 AM
 

Dabo is free to practice his religion. As an employee of the state, he is not free to force it upon others, especially those who are subordinate to him.

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Re: When did Dabo become a congressman? News to me.

[3]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 9:50 AM
 

You seem to think he forces his religion on the players. The players have always said differently, even those of different faiths.

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Re: When did Dabo become a congressman? News to me.


Posted: May 10, 2020, 2:22 PM
 

Noodle, could you point me to an article that backs your position. I am unaware of one.

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Re: When did Dabo become a congressman? News to me.

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 3:47 PM
 

Well, don’t let your ignorance stop you from opening your mouth.

Don’t you academics do your own homework?

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Re: When did Dabo become a congressman? News to me.

[4]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 1:09 PM
 

What evidence do you have that Dabo is forcing his religion on anyone? Do you think Dabo speaking of his faith, the power of prayer, or how God has blessed him is coercive? You may not like it but it doesn't make it coercive.

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Re: When did Dabo become a congressman? News to me.


Posted: May 10, 2020, 2:24 PM
 

Afdawg

Yes I think when the boss proselytizes to his charges, that is coercive. Perhaps he does not intend for it to be, but it is. He has ALL of the power in the relationship with his players, so it is easy to cross that line.

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Re: When did Dabo become a congressman? News to me.

emoji_events [5]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 4:57 PM
 

Sounds like you're saying no person in a public position of power can talk to a subordinate about issues related to their faith without being unconstitutionally coercive. Do you really believe the founders were trying to prevent those types of conversations?

"If I get a young man that comes to Clemson and he doesn't know anything or he's searching and I don't cultivate that . . . Shame on me." That doesn't sound coercion; that sounds like care, consideration, compassion, and coaching.

Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists was in the context of their concern that that the government would establish a state religion/denomination and infringe on the religious liberty of its members. I don't understand how you interpret his response to mean that anyone employed by a governmental entity is constitutionally banned from answering questions about his/her faith from anyone within his/her sphere of influence.

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dhg

Re: When did Dabo become a congressman? News to me.


Posted: May 10, 2020, 4:27 PM
 

And for his supporters he is free to say what he wants in the locker room to his players. You one the other hand aren’t wanted here.

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Where is the proof he has "forced it on others"?

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 5:39 PM
 

Making it available to others is quite different from "forcing it on others"!

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Re: When did Dabo become a congressman? News to me.


Posted: May 12, 2020, 10:37 AM
 

Please link where Dabo has EVER “forced” religion on anyone?

Do you know the difference between sharing and forcing?

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I’ll be laughing my head off, when you’re burning in ####


Posted: May 10, 2020, 7:33 AM
 

https://youtu.be/lOfZLb33uCg

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There's something in these hills.


Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 7:34 AM
 

Hmmmm! Hmmmmm! A progressive that enjoys the benefits of free speech to irritate those that appreciate FREEDOM OF CHOICE! It seems that one here is highly jealous of the benefits of Church.....
Let me conclude in kind thought....im turning my other cheek to your thought....but in humor!
Go Tigers!

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[3]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 7:35 AM
 

Perhaps you should practice speration of the boreds?

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 8:03 AM
 

For TooBias

https://g.co/kgs/YcQtTf

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team


Posted: May 10, 2020, 9:27 AM
 

Maybe he already does...not church and state...but in fact a state church...not a Church of England, or a Church of Rome! Leave Dabo alone...you should be such a leader!

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 10:03 AM
 


Separation of church and state, you know.


People of various religious beliefs & faiths (including non-believers) have worked and played under Dabo’s leadership.There is no religion test or requirements. Period. He treats ALL of them well and works hard for their benefit; he works to lead, coach and mentor them well. And, I’d wager they’re largely better for having had Dabo in their lives.

He loves God and shows that by the way he loves others. That you find that objectionable says so much about YOU without diminishing Dabo one bit.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team


Posted: May 10, 2020, 2:28 PM
 

Hifidog,

He loves God and shows that by the way he loves others.

That has been my understanding of his relationship to his players for years and i have not said a word about it. in fact, I enjoyed and endorsed it.

However, in the article in question, it becomes quite clear that he is doing more than that. he is preaching to the kids and that violates the separation of church and state. it's a simple as that. the article finally shows, by his own words, that he is trying to indoctrinate his players into his own faith. Not allowed.

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dhg

Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team


Posted: May 10, 2020, 4:29 PM
 

Not allowed? What are you going to do about it?

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

emoji_events [9]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 11:15 AM
 

Maybe we should check our academic class rooms where many professors attempt to convert students to their way of thinking, quite often in a subtle manner and sometimes in a not so subtle manner. Some of our Journalism schools are suspect when we look at the background of many professors. The spotlight shines on Dabo because of his success and his not trying to hide his beliefs under a bushel. Whatever the reason, Dabo's actions translates to success. Maybe we need to shine the spotlight on professors in the classroom.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team


Posted: May 10, 2020, 2:32 PM
 

Joe

This is called whataboutism. It is an attempt to distract form one wrongdoing by pointing out another.

IF professors are trying to indoctrinate students into their religious beliefs, then they should be called on it - just as Dabo should. Your questions only serve to indict Dabo as well.

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List of player or parents or recruits that have felt marginalized by Dabo’s faith?

[2]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 11:18 AM
 

I understand the Constitution very well thank you. But whether it’s you or the FFRF why do you think it’s your mission to enforce your religion or lack thereof on anyone else. There’s not a problem from the inside ask the players. The problem is invented by you and Mikey Weinstein to enforce what you think is right on everyone else.

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Re: List of player or parents or recruits that have felt marginalized by Dabo’s faith?


Posted: May 10, 2020, 2:43 PM
 

lovingit,

I have no intention of changing your or anyone else's religious beliefs. Mikey and I are merely pointing out that some government institutions seem to operate on the assumption that everyone in them are Christians. This is not so and government money shouldn't be expended as if it were so.

All Mikey and I want is for people of other faiths or of no faiths to be treated equally - that Christians do not get extra privileges - that's all. Some Christians are so used to thinking that they are the only real Americans, that this call for equal treatment seems like an attack, when it is merely the end of the silence about unequal treatment.

BTW, Mikey Weinstein graduated with Honors from the Air Force Academy and served in the Air Force JAG Corps for ten years. I am proud to be mentioned in the same sentence as him.

link

I went to the Air Force Academy. I graduated from there. I was never

[4]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 3:45 PM
 

“Evangelized” by any professor or officer. I also went back to teach there. I never evangelized anyone. But I was there when the FFRF came in and basically tried to tell me I was wrong for being a Christian. When someone asked me what I did over the weekend, I told them I went hiking on Saturday, church on Sunday. And that was wrong. I was there when Mikey came in. I know him all too well. In my opinion, he is a malicious, nasty person with an agenda that is his own and not for the people he supposedly represents. If he is all inclusive and fair, has he ever represented a Christian who was wronged?


Message was edited by: lovingit®


Message was edited by: lovingit®


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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team


Posted: May 10, 2020, 11:31 AM
 

You don’t like it then leave toby

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team


Posted: May 10, 2020, 2:43 PM
 

jbc

Brilliant !!

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[4]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 11:42 AM
 

Separation of Church and State seems to be working well. We have drug addiction problems, mass murders by teenagers shooting up schools, lack of moral value around the world. Numerous unwed mothers, government officials who could not tell the truth if you paid them too. A society of self- absorbed people who will go into debt to get that new car, new boat etc... but will not hesitate to ask for government assistance.

We have a 12 to 1 ratio of liberal professors to conservative ones. Many of our kids get a lot of their liberal ideas from these professors. IMO you either take the Bible as a whole to live by. I don’t think you can pick and choose what you believe and what you don’t believe. Many Christians try to live life that way in today’s world.

The Bible has just become another book to many. It’s puzzling as to why it’s typical when something like the Covid Virus hits we have a lot of God loving , praying people. When it passes many of those people fade back into the back ground. You just can’t turn God on and off like a TV. You are either a Christian or you are not. Billy Graham once said he would estimate that 60 to 70 percent of people who are active in churches today, are unsaved. That’s a lot of people. In these uncertain times I personally will be soul searching to make sure my relationship with Jesus Christ is where He wants it to be. I pray many others will do the same.

I am by far no holy roller, self appointed saint or sinless person. In fact I have much work to do everyday to make sure my life is where it God wants it to be. It hard work and I applaud Dabo for taking a stand on an unpopular issue. In the end it will be God who judges Dabo not other men, not the NCAA or some other organization.

I commend Dabo for standing up to those who are trying to bring him down or find flaws in his character. Dabo has flaws just as we all do. Because he is a Christian God forgives him for those flaws. But he like all Christians still suffer the consequences of our sin. God holds us all accountable for the decisions we Mike in life.

I am All In Dabo! Preach on if that is what many want to call it.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team


Posted: May 12, 2020, 10:49 AM
 

Dang that’s some good stuff man. Great post!

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 12:01 PM
 

I have a better idea, Why don't you let Dabo coach football and you take another course to add to your long list of accomplishments, it's called "Mind Your Own Business 101".

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You picked the wrong day of the week, the wrong Coach and

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 12:50 PM
 

the wrong board to have this discussion today. I hope you said your prayers before you went to bed last night when you posted this.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team


Posted: May 10, 2020, 2:52 PM
 

Well, dang, here I was thinking you had good intentions. I thought you were going to say if the NCAA didn't have football this year maybe enough schools could establish church teams and we could be the Newspring Tigers this year. Should have known it was another political post.

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Maybe a self described teacher should not attack religious freedom


Posted: May 10, 2020, 3:04 PM
 

You could resign in protest? ??

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Re: Maybe a self described teacher should not attack religious freedom

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 3:20 PM
 

Tobias I’m guilty as charged. I do believe all truth and justice comes from the Bible. So did our founders. By the way, please help me understand something. If Dabo is trying to be a Christ witness to his players why does anyone think it’s for any reason other than he loves them and wants the best for them?

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Re: Maybe a self described teacher should not attack religious freedom


Posted: May 10, 2020, 4:04 PM
 

Tardog said:

Tobias I’m guilty as charged. I do believe all truth and justice comes from the Bible. So did our founders. By the way, please help me understand something. If Dabo is trying to be a Christ witness to his players why does anyone think it’s for any reason other than he loves them and wants the best for them?




The Constitution and The Bible are inconsistent.

I am the Lord thy God. Thou should have no gods before me. -- certainly that is against The Constitution.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors goods. -- against the foundation of Capitalism, Constitution don't control through.

Keep holy the Sabbath. -- How many businesses are open on Sunday?

etc etc

The Constitution and The Bible have 2+ consistencies: Murder, Steal and False Witness (under oath) These prohibitions were used in successful societies/law codes long before Jesus gave his Ten.

***************************************
Yes I believe Dabo is doing what he believes is best for his players, but he fails to recognize the rights of them and their parents.

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Re: Maybe a self described teacher should not attack religious freedom

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 4:15 PM
 

Wow!! Just wow!!!

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Re: Maybe a self described teacher should not attack religious freedom

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 4:17 PM
 

So the constitution is God? Jesus gave the Ten Commandments and the constitution mandates that people keep their businesses open on Sunday? Got it.

BTW wanting what others have is communism/socialism not capitalism.





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Re: Maybe a self described teacher should not attack religious freedom

[3]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 4:29 PM
 

I feel sorry for the stupids in this thread.

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Re: Maybe a self described teacher should not attack religious freedom


Posted: May 10, 2020, 4:27 PM
 

Gun toting thugs are a current product your program produces.

Overstep, please. Your trashy program has bigger fish to fry before you’re eligible to criticize another, for perpetuating Christianity to free will young adults that chose to come to Clemson knowing what they were choosing.

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Re: Maybe a self described teacher should not attack religious freedom


Posted: May 10, 2020, 4:35 PM
 


Gun toting thugs are a current product your program produces.

Overstep, please. Your trashy program has bigger fish to fry before you’re eligible to criticize another, for perpetuating Christianity to free will young adults that chose to come to Clemson knowing what they were choosing.




A kid should not have to choose to not go to a public school because he will then have one religion shoved on him.

A religion should not take over a public institution. My granddaughter prays in school and I pay for that excellent Catholic school, that is choice.

Oh, can you show how gun toting thugs are connected to anything? Studes show that the more religious states, and nations, have the most violent crime.

link

Here’s a repost just for you

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 4:50 PM
 

Believing a certain way and trying to win others to your persuasion is what EVERYONE that I have ever known tries to do. It’s what you’re doing right now. The only way you can stop people from doing it is to take away their rights guaranteed in the constitution. Persuading people is not unconstitutional. Mandating that people think the way you think about religion or suffer legal consequence is unconstitutional. Mandating that people think the way you think about religion or suffer consequence within a public organization such as a university or football program is unconstitutional. Dabo has done none of those things. Again, it is not unconstitutional to influence people with who you are and what you believe be it religion or anything else. If you don’t agree with Dabo that’s fine but you have no right to silence him or strip him of his ability to influence people with his faith.

Furthermore these kids choose to play for coaches largely based on who that coach is and what they believe. If they don’t like it they go elsewhere.

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Re: Here’s a repost just for you


Posted: May 10, 2020, 4:59 PM
 


Believing a certain way and trying to win others to your persuasion is what EVERYONE that I have ever known tries to do. It’s what you’re doing right now. The only way you can stop people from doing it is to take away their rights guaranteed in the constitution. Persuading people is not unconstitutional. Mandating that people think the way you think about religion or suffer legal consequence is unconstitutional. Mandating that people think the way you think about religion or suffer consequence within a public organization such as a university or football program is unconstitutional. Dabo has done none of those things. Again, it is not unconstitutional to influence people with who you are and what you believe be it religion or anything else. If you don’t agree with Dabo that’s fine but you have no right to silence him or strip him of his ability to influence people with his faith.

Furthermore these kids choose to play for coaches largely based on who that coach is and what they believe. If they don’t like it they go elsewhere.




No one wants to silence him or stop him from influencing people with his faith.

It is, however, now a violation to use his PUBLIC paid office to influence those that answer to him.

CASE LAW, maybe an atty will explain it.

link

Go back and read my post.

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 5:07 PM
 

Everyone influences those around them. Coaches influence their players with who they are and what they believe. That is not illegal. It is illegal to silence Dabo about his faith just as it would be illegal for Dabo to mandate his faith on those who answer to him. Again Dabo mandates his faith on no one so what you are saying is that Dabo’s right to speak about his faith should be stripped from him because he holds a public paid position? That is clearly what you are saying and you are both legally and morally wrong.

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Re: Maybe a self described teacher should not attack religious freedom

[2]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 4:52 PM
 

You don’t know your own trash program I see. Your trashy players arrests for toting guns isn’t the best look for a program supported by someone condemning another program for spreading Christianity.

Might want to clean your own kitchen before sharing your unwanted and half-witted opinion.


You just look embarrassingly uneducated.

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FOUND THE ONE PERSON THAT AGREES

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 4:38 PM
 

I'm sure there are some coots that agree as well

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Re: Maybe a self described teacher should not attack religious freedom


Posted: May 10, 2020, 9:01 PM
 

Tardog,

Many of our Founding Fathers were men of faith, and yet they still took pains to separate church from state. many of them - or their fathers - had left Europe because they were p[ersecuted for not being of the "right" faith. they want to make sure the new America government would not replicate that injustice. So because they were men of faith, they kept their religious beliefs out of the government. This is what I have been trying to promote here.

I have ascribed no malicious intentions to Dabo. I am absolutely sure that he thinks he is doing his best for his players. But he is violating the US Constitution and I am against that.

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Dabo is not in violation of the constitution.


Posted: May 10, 2020, 9:28 PM
 

Everyone influences those around them. Coaches influence their players with who they are and what they believe. That is not illegal. It is illegal to silence Dabo about his faith just as it would be illegal for Dabo to mandate his faith on those who answer to him. Again Dabo mandates his faith on no one so what you are saying is that Dabo’s right to speak about his faith should be stripped from him because he holds a public paid position? That is clearly what you are saying and you are both legally and morally wrong. You cannot strip him of free speech just because he is a football coach and you don’t want to hear about his faith. Telling people about what you believe is NOT a mandate that people believe it.

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Re: Maybe a self described teacher should not attack religious freedom

[2]
Posted: May 11, 2020, 6:49 AM
 

Tobias you and I will go in circles on this issue and never agree. I would like to say something to you though. I went back and read my original response to you and I was very rude to you. I sincerely apologize for that. I mean that.
On a lighter note, if my friends could see me now??!!? I , a Tar Heel, am on the Clemson boards defending Dabo! Lol. But as I’ve said in another thread somewhere I’m a fan of college football. I respect the heck out of Dabo and what he’s done with your program and how he leads those young men. God bless and good luck on the coming season.

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Re: Maybe a self described teacher should not attack religious freedom


Posted: May 11, 2020, 9:17 AM
 

Well said. To many coaches use players for the football talent once that is gone to some coaches the player is taking up space.

That’s not how things are done at Clemson. It’s not just football but it seems to me Clemson takes care of all of their student athletes.

And just watching Dabo, Tony and the rest of the coaches, they really care about and love those guys. Even after they leave Clemson. TB caught a lot of the same criticism because of his Christian Faith. I applaud Dabo for being more vocal about than any other coach in college football. Many others may judge him but in the end their is only one Judge that really matters!
I hope and pray that all of you, as well as your families are safe and healthy.


Message was edited by: wueagle86®


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I am sure they would win as well. Probably not the pay


Posted: May 10, 2020, 4:39 PM
 

though.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 4:59 PM
 

Separation of church and state has been good for the church and disastrous for the state.

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Maybe Dabo missed Matthew


Posted: May 10, 2020, 5:02 PM
 

Matthew 6:5 - 6:6

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

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Re: Maybe Dabo missed Matthew

[4]
Posted: May 11, 2020, 1:25 AM
 

I still can’t get over you saying Jesus gave the Ten Commandments.
That was a good one.

What would be cool is if you could understand how Jesus boiled them all down to just two.

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Re: Maybe Dabo missed Matthew

[3]
Posted: May 11, 2020, 1:53 AM
 

Classic troll. Manipulating bible passages now...

Probably a coot. Too stupid even to be a corn dog.

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Re: Maybe Dabo missed Matthew


Posted: May 12, 2020, 11:02 AM
 

And it’s also in Matthew when Jesus talks about how people are going to misuse the Bible to persecute believers.

This right here is a textbook example of that. Never could you have twisted scripture so badly to fit your agenda of persecuting a believer than you just did. Congrats.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 6:14 PM
 

There are much bigger things in life than football......why do you thing most of these guys want to play for Dabo......It has very little to do about football but very much to do with their faith.....they come to play for Dabo because most of them are already Christians ......just listen to what most of these guys say WHY they commit to Dabo.......it is all about their faith man......God bless Dabo, Clemson University, all these young men, and YOU brother.......Go Tigers!!!!

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team


Posted: May 10, 2020, 9:03 PM
 

I don't think we would be recruiting top 5 classes if we were going 6 and 6.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[2]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 9:54 PM
 

Dabo will be the first to tell you he has been successful because of his faith, family, and then football........he would not be where he is today if he left any of these 3 things out.......Dabo has his priorities straight and in the correct order.....and his players love, respect, and want to play for him for these very reasons.......Go Tigers!!!!!!!!

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 6:50 PM
 

Quote: "All Mikey and I want is for people of other faiths or of no faiths to be treated equally - that Christians do not get extra privileges - that's all. Some Christians are so used to thinking that they are the only real Americans, that this call for equal treatment seems like an attack, when it is merely the end of the silence about unequal treatment."

That may be the dumbest thing you have said, and that is saying a lot. There is nothing to indicate that Dabo is treating Christians any differently or that Christians are generally treated better in America. Where in the world did you get that notion. If anything, as a group, they are the target of an ever increasing secular society. As a matter of fact, if we are being attacked by society, then we are probably doing something right. I remember a few years ago, maybe when Dabo was the receivers coach, that we had a Muslim wide receiver. Dabo never did anything to make him feel unwelcome or uncomfortable.

Dabo knows that it is not his job to turn young men into Christians. He can't. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. But he knows it is his duty as a Christian to express his beliefs and hope they fall on willing ears. He says his job is not to turn young men into Christians, but to coach football ..... and that is what he does.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[1]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 7:43 PM
 

Wouldn't that pay less? Not looking for Coach to seek a pay cut at the pinnacle of his career with a shot to win championship #3 this year. But that's just me.

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Maybe you could just be a UGA fan and quit pretending

[3]
Posted: May 10, 2020, 8:24 PM
 

to be a Clemson fan. At least then your personal attacks against CDS would make sense.

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John 3:16; 14:1-6


Re: Maybe you could just be a UGA fan and quit pretending


Posted: May 10, 2020, 9:05 PM
 

Yeah, I've only been a Clemson fan since I was 7.

link

That explains a LOT

[1]
Posted: May 11, 2020, 8:06 AM
 

since you must only be 10 now.

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John 3:16; 14:1-6


Re: Maybe you could just be a UGA fan and quit pretending

[2]
Posted: May 11, 2020, 2:05 PM
 

Perhaps we all have more time on our hands than is helpful? Here's my take for what it's worth. Separation of church and state was intended to prevent the state from coercing one to belong to a particular faith if any or force one to give money to a particular faith. It was never intended to strip one's right to express one's faith.

The court rulings have been inconsistent too. Are you likewise concerned that our money still has In God We Trust? Are you disturbed that in a courtroom, people are still sworn in stating they are telling the truth,"So help me God?" Are you bothered that Congress has paid chaplains to open sessions of Congress with prayer for well over 200 years? Does the Inauguration with the Chief Justice swearing in the President with a Bible offend you?

Dabo has been the head coach for 10 years. His continued retention of that job rests with winning consistently and keeping the program out of trouble.He has done both. Do you honestly believe Dabo would risk his job to play a professing Christian over a Muslim, Jew,Buddhist, Hindu, or Atheist, if the non Christian performed at a higher level? I have to believe there have been plenty of non Christians that have played for Dabo. Perhaps a few of them can come forward and state how they have been scarred from Dabo sharing his faith.

Ken Hatfield and Tommy Bowden likewise were very devout and open about their faith and freely shared it, so it would appear Clemson football coaches have been an irritant to you for sometime.

If Dabo forced a player to attend church, chapel, or pray, I too would be opposed to that. Is there any proof he has done so? I do understand that perhaps a player of marginal ability might feel the need to participate in order to bolster his chances for gaining some measure of playing time, but again, I feel the coaches all fully recognize their job is in the balance and therefore put the most skilled players on the field regardless of faith.

Dabo is sharing his faith. He is not forcing anyone to become a Christian. I truthfully can not for a moment believe that Dabo would not respect a player's wishes if the player told Dabo that while he respected Dabo's beliefs, he did not share those beliefs and would ask that Dabo not share his faith with him again.

It is my understanding that Jack Leggett, our former baseball coach is an atheist and was not shy about expressing his lack of faith to his players. I could be wrong about that, but have heard that. I doubt he would have played a fellow atheist over a non atheist if the believer was a better player. Would you be ok with a coach attempting to poke holes in a player's beliefs?

I'm ok with both Dabo and Leggett expressing themselves as long as the coach backed off if asked to do so. I may be wrong, but I feel both did and would do so.


Where would all this end? There are superior/subordinate relationships in virtually all workplace environments whether public or private. Would you move to prohibit any superior from sharing their faith, whatever it is, with a subordinate?

There are way too may bigger fish to fry than to worry over how Dabo's faith may be a negative influence.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team


Posted: May 10, 2020, 11:07 PM
 

You know, there's a big difference between "would you like to come to church" and "you have to come to church"

Get over your personal problems with religion and stop putting a negative light on our program. Your examples are ridiculous and logic is flawed. Your Muslim comment especially, knowing the demographic we live in. Do you really not think there would be scandals of forced practices or favoritism by now if it was as deeply rooted as you think?

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[3]
Posted: May 11, 2020, 1:33 AM
 

As if a member of a fan base known for yelling “suck that Tiger ####, #####” at underage female Clemson fans after the game could ever have the ability to put our Program in a negative light.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[3]
Posted: May 11, 2020, 10:51 AM
 

15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
1st Peter 3:15

To the OP...if you’re being genuine..
Go back and read the whole article ...
He clearly said his job is to win football games not make sure kids are believers...

I’m kind of surprised no one has pointed this out - and I’m assuming you’re a non-believer.. you wouldn’t catch it ...but to me ...once Dabo used the word.. “searching” to reference a kid it’s clear to me what’s going on ..

And it’s no different than how I live my life in my secular non-football coach life ...

Going back to the verse I quoted ... that verse presumes that you live your life in such a way that people know what you believe and will ask you questions ...
Dabo is more overt than I am - I suppose ...
But I’m open enough in my faith - that I’ve encountered numerous instances of people “searching” for answers ...and once they let that be known - they are in fact inviting dialogue ...
At that point - I absolutely have an obligation to respond and will....

I haven’t once pursued proselytizing at my job... but in the course of 30+ years working (including my very first job) I have shared my faith many many times and will continue to do so.....

Dabo doesn’t award starting positions based on how faithful a kid is ...he does it based on who the best players are ...but Dabo is open enough about his faith that he and our program naturally attracts kids from faith driven homes ...

There are many college programs available to top recruits- and Dabo doesn’t hide his beliefs- it that makes a kid or a family uncomfortable they are perfectly free to pursue other opportunities- either initially or through the increasingly available transfer portal ..

What you’re espousing isn’t separation of church and state it’s an attack on Dabo’s right to express his religion...

No kid is required to be a Christian to get a scholarship, to start, or to even play...

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team


Posted: May 11, 2020, 2:34 PM
 


Separation of church and state, you know.

Maybe you should stop publicly endorsing Thomas Jefferson's religious prejudices.

We don't want to be coerced into believing one's religion is private just because Jefferson thought so.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team


Posted: May 12, 2020, 6:24 PM
 

RW

Would you take Jesus; word for it ??

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[1]
Posted: May 12, 2020, 10:00 PM
 

Favorite quotations by persons who don't know their Bibles or comprehend the concept of a context.

Do you even know who the hypocrites were he was referring to? Hint: they're not alive today. He was not just being pejorative for the sake of being obnoxious, which is how most quoters use it today.

Did you know that just preceding your missed point comes the verse Dabo loves that you mocked earlier? Matt 5:14-16 "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid. No one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket, but rather on a lamp stand, and it gives light to all that are in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven."

Do you remember mocking Dabo's 'little' light?

Do you believe that your misapplication of the Sermon on the Mount, his introductory message, trumps the Great Commission, his final one?

It reads,, "All authority has been given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore and make disciples of all nations..." Matt 28:18-19

"Authority " means the right to hold someone accountable. Think about that: Jesus has the right to hold every person accountable for every time they disobeyed him, regardless of why and regardless of the fact that many were never informed.

Because he will hold every person accountable, he wants us to tell every person what his commands are.

Doesn't sound like he wanted us all to be private and mouse like, does it?

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[1]
Posted: May 11, 2020, 6:23 PM
 

This was a very “spirited” thread.

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Re: Maybe Dabo should coach a church team

[2]
Posted: May 11, 2020, 8:15 PM
 

Been here done that. The FFRP tried to investigate Clemson a few years ago to get a player to turn on Dabo for pushing his view. It didn't happen. We had a receiver trying to remember his name, Arron Kelly I believe is a Jehovah's witness or Christian Scientist. Cant remember but stated he was never pressured in anyway. BTW pretty sure he coached his sons church basketball team so he has checked that box. That one pays pretty good in the everlasting life. The one he does for a living pays better in this one.

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You’re my reminder that common sense is almost done with***


Posted: May 11, 2020, 10:19 PM
 



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You’re my reminder that common sense is almost done with***


Posted: May 11, 2020, 10:19 PM
 



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Or maybe atheists could s t f u***


Posted: May 12, 2020, 10:49 AM
 



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Re: Or maybe atheists could s t f u***


Posted: May 12, 2020, 6:22 PM
 

Sorry morbid, those days are over. You will have to deal with us rationally - if you are able.

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