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Replies: 83
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All-In [26968]
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In this thread, let's discuss whether God sinned
Feb 17, 2020, 2:00 PM
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by making man with free will to choose to sin.
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Heisman Winner [137894]
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Prodigal, you need to remember that even if you choose not
Feb 17, 2020, 2:02 PM
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to decide, you still have made a choice.
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Lot o points [155876]
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I will choose a path that's clear.***
Feb 17, 2020, 4:18 PM
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CU Medallion [58411]
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RIP Neil Peart***
Feb 17, 2020, 5:51 PM
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Hall of Famer [24760]
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Is sin (and hate, evil, suffering, etc.) necessary?***
Feb 17, 2020, 2:02 PM
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: Is sin (and hate, evil, suffering, etc.) necessary?***
Feb 17, 2020, 2:48 PM
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I think in order to experience love their has to be the possibility of hate.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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If the randomness of suffering in the world doesn't change
Feb 17, 2020, 2:50 PM
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your mind, nothing will.
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: If the randomness of suffering in the world doesn't change
Feb 17, 2020, 2:59 PM
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What does that prove?
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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If God loved man as much as believers say
Feb 17, 2020, 3:16 PM
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Why would he allow so much suffering?
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Unless he can't prevent it.
Feb 17, 2020, 3:54 PM
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Which goes back to the problem of an all-powerful AND all-loving God. An all loving God would not allow unnecessary suffering, and if it's necessary, then God must not be all powerful. Or so it would seem.
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: Unless he can't prevent it.
Feb 17, 2020, 5:04 PM
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He can change it, in fact does in some cases (divine intervention). He allows suffering, death, life, joy and many other state of being. You may think it to be weird or easily misunderstood, but he allows things to happen to show his power, to make the affected
( individuals, families or sinners in general) look to him for worship and to have humans share empathy and develop fellowship.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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So, you agree that God allows unnecessary pain and
Feb 17, 2020, 5:09 PM
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suffering.
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: So, you agree that God allows unnecessary pain and
Feb 17, 2020, 5:12 PM
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Is it unnecessary of something-better mat come of it!’v
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CU Medallion [58411]
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It sounds like you think pain and suffering are
Feb 17, 2020, 5:15 PM
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necessary, since something good may ultimately come from it. Is that correct?
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: It sounds like you think pain and suffering are
Feb 17, 2020, 5:25 PM
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necessary, since something good may ultimately come from it. Is that correct?
Not necessarily. Good can influence good, bad can influence good and good can influence bad.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Again, it's simple.
Feb 17, 2020, 5:56 PM
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By any definition we understand of love, an all loving God would not allow unnecessary suffering. You agree with that, right? Yes or no?
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: Again, it's simple.
Feb 17, 2020, 6:04 PM
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It is more complex than that. My short answer is no. He does allow if. But what is his purpose?
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CU Medallion [58411]
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He does allow it. Does he have to allow it, or is it
Feb 17, 2020, 6:13 PM
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his choice to allow it?
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: He does allow it. Does he have to allow it, or is it
Feb 17, 2020, 6:53 PM
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Yes, he allows it. As he stated in the beginning in the Bible. We will be made to suffer.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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So he allows unnecesssay suffering, suffering that he could
Feb 17, 2020, 6:55 PM
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eliminate in a flash. That's all I'm looking for.
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: So he allows unnecesssay suffering, suffering that he could
Feb 17, 2020, 7:05 PM
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Is it unnecessary? I agree, it is a bit harsh for a couple of dummies mistakes in the garden, but I’m not going to be the one to tell him he was wrong for making their decision lol.
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: If God loved man as much as believers say
Feb 17, 2020, 4:18 PM
[ in reply to If God loved man as much as believers say ] |
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If there is hate there is going to be suffering. If there is love there has to be hate. I’m not saying that proves anything but I can’t really imagine it any other way.
It’s also a reality of this world that we grow through pain and suffering in every aspect of our lives. So maybe the sufferings of this world are for our good.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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But if God were all powerful, why would the hate and
Feb 17, 2020, 4:38 PM
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suffering be necessary?
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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it's not necessary...
Feb 18, 2020, 12:29 PM
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it's the by-product of individuality and the ability to do as we choose.
How easy is it to get the family to agree on a place to eat? Imagine billions of self-interest seeking people on the planet.
I address the idea of a planet of robots below.
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Rock Defender [53]
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Why did God create a world in which pain and suffering
Feb 17, 2020, 5:05 PM
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are necessary tools?
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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without pain and suffering...
Feb 18, 2020, 12:01 AM
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we would not know joy and ecstasy. Nobody likes pain and suffering, but if all we experienced was joy we would become numb to it. If we constantly experienced joy how would we describe it. Would there be different level of joy to compare it to? Would the joy you experienced be different between finding $5 and winning the lottery or having sex? Would a lower level of joy become like pain. At the expense of sounding unspiritual, would you really choose to have a constant ######?
On a completely base level, think about football. Winning feels good, but after 29 straight wins, winning becomes a little ho-hum. Oh it's still good, but you aren't celebrating like you did on win 8, 9, or 10. It takes losing to remind you how good winning is.
That's why Dabo says it's about the journey. We aren't made to live on the mountaintops.
But back to the original thought. Joy and pain aren't just so we can experience the difference so we don't go numb to the constant joy. Rather God wants to show himself as a comforter in the times of pain.
I also know this leads to questions as to what about the people who do not "recover" from the suffering and pain like the little girl in Cayce. That is tough. I do not have an answer for that than I belief this life is temporal and that God is merciful even for people like that in the next. I believe God is more troubled by evil like that than we are.
One more thought:
Human nature is to resist change. When we are comfortable we do not change. People who were always comfortable and always happy would have no reason to get off the couch or whatever it is that brings them comfort. There would be no advances or new inventions or anything new if we were constantly happy and comfortable. The old adage is "necessity is the mother of invention." If we were all happy and comfortable all the time life would be boring. We probably wouldn't have relationships because there would be no need to travel outside our own comfy, self-sufficient bubbles.
We wouldn't have sex and procreate because we were already in complete ecstasy.
We wouldn't watch ball games or movies because our entertainment would be complete.
Nobody would play games because there would be no need to feel any different.
No need to make movies, etc. etc. etc.
Message was edited by: franc1968®
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Using this world, and this reality as a frame of reference,
Feb 18, 2020, 10:23 AM
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yes, we can not know joy and ecstacy without pain and suffering. We can't imagine or comprehend it any other way. Anything else defies reason. I totally get that. That is our reality, and we are limited by it's constraints. My question, and my point, is why would God be limited in such a way? What prevents him from creating a reality in which there could be joy and ecstacy without the pain and suffering?
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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I think he COULD do that...
Feb 18, 2020, 12:23 PM
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as you say this is our reality and our understanding of that reality is limited or finite.
So I cannot begin to describe or understand what that would be like in this "alternate reality" you describe. So my judgment on that reality based on what I know is that would be boring and not musch of an existence.
I believe based on the reality we have that only a Cruel Master would create robots who could not be creative and make their own choices and could not experience the gamut of emotions. Everyone would be the same. We could not pick and choose friends and partners. There would be nothing unique so we could not define beauty and ugliness. We couldn't enjoy the differences in each of our children. The list goes on and on of the benefits of living in such a world as ours.
The alternative sounds horrible to me. But again, I can only measure this "alternate reality" by my point of reference and what I understand.
And one more issue: Whose utopian standard are we going to have in the alternate reality where everything is perfect? Is it mine? Is it yours? Is it a god's? Perhaps as non-thinking robots everybody has the same utopian standard.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Using this world, and this reality as a frame of reference,
Feb 18, 2020, 3:54 PM
[ in reply to Using this world, and this reality as a frame of reference, ] |
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I cannot use the absence of evidence as evidence of anything. You suggest that if God is all love He would not allow suffering. I don't agree with that.
If there were no suffering, there would be no love, no joy, no anything. We would be robots absent any sense of right and wrong. If there were no evil there could be no good men.
God chooses to allow this world to progress on it's own. Choosing not to end suffering doesn't mean God isn't 'all love' at all in my view.
It is a mystery why God created earth, or man, or love.
Faith is the belief in something unseen. It is, to believers, a knowing that is just as real as the chair I sit in. Faith is purely subjective and God cannot be 'proved' empirically.
I think the mistake that non-believers make is they think that believers just 'pretend' there is a God. But to a believer, it is a knowing. It's purely subjective but it is real nonetheless.
6,800,000.000 people on earth believe in God and 'Religion' is historically a big problem. I don't believe that God is constrained by religion. But that's another conversation.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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I get that a lot, and I understand why people say that, but
Feb 17, 2020, 3:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: Is sin (and hate, evil, suffering, etc.) necessary?*** ] |
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it doesn't really answer the question, so let me ask it another way. In our world, in this reality, love and hate are different sides of the same coin, so to speak. Or maybe opposite ends of the same spectrum. The question is, what exactly is it that prevents God from creating a reality in which we can experience only love, without the hate? What greater power is this which limits God?
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: I get that a lot, and I understand why people say that, but
Feb 17, 2020, 4:06 PM
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Now you’ve changed the definition of love. The love that we know and experience is genuine.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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By what definition of love is allowing unecessary suffering
Feb 17, 2020, 4:33 PM
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acceptable?
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: By what definition of love is allowing unecessary suffering
Feb 17, 2020, 4:40 PM
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Now you’re moving the goal posts. So we’ve established that the love that we experience in this world, which is genuine and the product of free choice made by an individual, could not exist without the possibility of hate. Are we in agreement there?
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CU Medallion [58411]
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You aren't hearing anything I'm saying.
Feb 17, 2020, 5:03 PM
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I am not moving the goal posts. You are saying that God created this world, a world in which hate and suffering are necessary. I am saying an all loving, all powerful God would not create such a world, not by any definition of power or love as we understand it.
I agree that in this world, a little pain is good for us sometimes. It helps us learn and grow into something better. Along those same lines, hate makes us appreciate love. I totally agree with that. I also know, and I think you would have to agree, that if God is all powerful, there would be nothing to prevent him from creating a world for us in which hate and suffering are completely unnecessary, and we would possess al of the desirable attributes without having to learn that way.
Think about it this way. If you have children, you know they are going to experience varying degrees of hate and pain in their lives. It is inevitable. Our hope as parents is that these hardships don't totally overwhelm them, and that they will learn and grow from these experiences. However, if we could live in some alternate reality, in which our kids (and ourselves) could experience and appreciate love and happiness to the absolute fullest extent without the pain and hate, we'd certainly give it to them. If that were possible, pain and hate would serve no purpose toward a greater, higher goal. Are you telling me that God is incapable of creating such a reality?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: You aren't hearing anything I'm saying.
Feb 17, 2020, 5:07 PM
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Lot o points [155876]
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I think Belinda Carlisle actually said that.***
Feb 17, 2020, 5:09 PM
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I'm pointing out that evil, pain, suffering, hate, etc. are
Feb 17, 2020, 5:52 PM
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CU Medallion [58411]
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To say they are necessary means that God does not have
Feb 17, 2020, 6:00 PM
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the power to change it, to eliminate them. Else they are not necessary.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: To say they are necessary means that God does not have
Feb 17, 2020, 6:21 PM
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CU Medallion [58411]
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God made them necessary, which would mean he could
Feb 17, 2020, 6:47 PM
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make them not necessary, which in effect means they are not necessary. Which means that God allows unnecessay suffering, and actually created a world in which it would flourish. PS: Thanks for hanging in there this long. I asked a simple question and have not gotten a straight, direct answer yet. My answer is that I don't know, and I can't answer that question myself, but I believe that God is a spiritual being operating on a spiritual level which is connected to but seperate from the physical world in which we live. My faith is simple too. I believe because I see the good and the love and the mystery in the world, and feel the presence of something much bigger and greater than myself.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: God made them necessary, which would mean he could
Feb 17, 2020, 7:30 PM
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: You aren't hearing anything I'm saying.
Feb 17, 2020, 5:16 PM
[ in reply to You aren't hearing anything I'm saying. ] |
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I hear what you’re saying. But what you’re saying is unfathomable. Way more unimaginable than a talking snake or a man rising from the dead. We would not be individuals with free will if all we could do is love each other. That would not be love at all.
So your statement that a loving God wouldn’t create a world where pain and suffering is necessary is false if the only way that love can exist is along with pain and suffering. And we see that that love exists. It’s a reality.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Are you saying that because it seems unfathomable to
Feb 17, 2020, 5:25 PM
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you, it can't be, that God couldn't do it? To you (and me) a world in which love exists without hate is unfathomable. An all powerful God could do it, however, else he's not all powerful.
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: Are you saying that because it seems unfathomable to
Feb 17, 2020, 5:52 PM
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But you’re not asking him to create the love we know.
You’re asking him to create something totally different.
Do you not see that flaw in your argument? You’re actually changing the definition of love.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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What is your definition of love?***
Feb 17, 2020, 6:01 PM
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Re: What is your definition of love? Is there a kind of love
Feb 17, 2020, 6:06 PM
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that tolerates unnecessary suffering when it can be eliminated in the blink of an eye? If I see somebody suffering, and it is totally unnecessay, and I can put a stop to it in an instant, but instead I allow the suffering to continue, I would be evil.
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: What is your definition of love?***
Feb 17, 2020, 7:04 PM
[ in reply to What is your definition of love?*** ] |
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Whatever it is it's an action that has to be freely chosen by an individual with the free will to choose it, not a default setting.
If your dad said to on your 18th birthday....son we've got a mail order bride for you to marry that will love you the rest of your life, would that be the same as you going off to college and eventually meeting someone for yourself?
In the world you are describing we would be a bunch of robots.
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CU Medallion [58411]
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Using this world as a frame of reference, yes, we'd all be
Feb 17, 2020, 8:59 PM
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like robots. I'm just saying that if God is all powerful, he could create a world that would defy everything we believe and think we know. He would be able to create a world in which there was only love, and in which we would not be robots.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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apparently not.
Feb 18, 2020, 2:06 PM
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You can't control the masses with that kind of stuff.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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All-In [26968]
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I'll answer that the act of creating man with
Feb 17, 2020, 2:09 PM
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free will to sin is not an act of sin, but an act of love. We talk about freedom and how much we cherish it. This is true freedom, and God gave it to us, special.
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Oculus Spirit [97711]
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He knew exactly what he was doing.***
Feb 17, 2020, 2:25 PM
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All-TigerNet [11189]
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Let's not...
Feb 17, 2020, 2:36 PM
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and say we did.
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All-In [43665]
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Alternate option: Let's do
Feb 17, 2020, 2:53 PM
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and let's do it on the P&R bored. And by let's I mean let yous. Or them. Let'm.
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CU Medallion [56067]
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I think it's really unfair to create skeptics and then say
Feb 17, 2020, 2:58 PM
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"Believe in me or burn for eternity."
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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I agree, it is unfair...
Feb 17, 2020, 11:47 PM
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I don't know the answer to that. It is a head-scratcher (to put it mildly). Why God would create us and then put the temptation there - provide a chance for us to do the wrong thing. Seems like a trap.
Many people look at the Bible as a set of rules, but the Bible teaches that we can't keep the rules. None of us. So it is possible that the rules are there not necessarily to show us how bad we are, but to show us how good God is by loving us. Most people quote John 3:16 without the context of verse 17: "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."
But those of who are believers believe that God is more concerned with a relationship than keeping rules. Most religions send people on a quest of trying to be good, trying to find a god, so that god will accept us. The Bible teaches that God reveals Himself to us. It says he's not hard to find if you look.
So to me, what DannyByGodFord says is accurate. If there was not sin, we would not know God's mercy. If there was not dark, we would not know light. If there were not evil, we would not know good.
Hardly satisfying answers for the true skeptic, but based on my study, this makes the most sense for something we really cannot understand.
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All-In [38181]
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Of course ... literally
Feb 17, 2020, 3:51 PM
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1. Make man.
2. Give them free will.
3. Slaughter 99.9% of them for using it.
4. Randomly favor one group.
5. Never speak or write a single word.
6. Legalize slavery and ban shrimp.
7. Kill thyself for a weekend.
8. Hide.
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CU Medallion [56067]
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Create Earth for man.
Feb 17, 2020, 4:12 PM
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75% salt water.
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Heisman Winner [137894]
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But, there are so many delicious things in that water
Feb 17, 2020, 4:33 PM
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that we can hunt to extinction, so we should be thankful for that.
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Oculus Spirit [93662]
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Made for IVs for beings which are what 98% water and...
Feb 20, 2020, 1:02 AM
[ in reply to Create Earth for man. ] |
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so dependent upon salt?
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All-In [48078]
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Re: In this thread, let's discuss whether God sinned
Feb 17, 2020, 6:43 PM
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Man invented the concept of god, so this thread is idiotic. You might as well open a thread talking about the virgins you get after blowing yourself up..
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: In this thread, let's discuss whether God sinned
Feb 17, 2020, 7:06 PM
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That would be sweet wouldn't it? I would blow my self up in a heartbeat if I knew that were true.
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110%er [8984]
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slow ur roll lol***
Feb 17, 2020, 7:27 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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All-In [48078]
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Re: We will all find out one day won’t we
Feb 17, 2020, 7:32 PM
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We already know. All religion is man made bullship.
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110%er [8984]
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ask danny what he gonna do with virgins
Feb 17, 2020, 7:33 PM
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after he all blowed up
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: We will all find out one day won’t we
Feb 17, 2020, 7:37 PM
[ in reply to Re: We will all find out one day won’t we ] |
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I don’t think the early Christians made it up. It’s a proven historical fact that A LOT of them were killed for simply refusing to recant their faith.
Maybe Jesus just had access to some really good shrooms and he tricked them into believing he was god. Whatever the case was they believed he was pretty special.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: We will all find out one day won’t we
Feb 18, 2020, 4:48 PM
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Early Christians fell for man made bullship. They are no different than now. Jesus is the same as the Easter Bunny.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: We will all find out one day won’t we
Feb 18, 2020, 5:13 PM
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All-In [26968]
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Legend [15492]
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Re: In this thread, let's discuss whether God sinned
Feb 17, 2020, 9:06 PM
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If you have a child and he robs a bank. You are not guilty of bank robbery.
If you take a herd of horses and release them into an open range, you are not responsible for which direction each goes in.
God gave man free will, for without it we could not choose God.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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I feel like having kids helped me grasp this concept more...
Feb 17, 2020, 11:34 PM
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although I have no grasp of it.
As a parent, I see some of myself in my kids. This is like God with us, we are created in his image.
I don't want to control my kids. When they do good, I am pleased. When they do wrong, I am disappointed.
There is no joy in forced allegiance.
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Oculus Spirit [93662]
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Have you ever paid for something they broke?
Feb 18, 2020, 8:23 AM
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Was it something you bought to start with and then replaced after warning them not to mistreat it?
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All-In [42151]
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God sinned when...
Feb 18, 2020, 7:33 AM
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I saw him at an oyster roast down here a few weeks ago, eatin' shellfish.
Nothing against those cold IPAs he was pounding, though.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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From the answers in this thread, God is definitely an egoist***
Feb 18, 2020, 10:36 AM
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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Well he refers to himself as "I AM"...
Feb 18, 2020, 11:42 AM
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Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. He has no beginning and no end. So I guess yeah. Who am I to judge?
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All-In [34486]
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Why I don't know. I'm not even positive
Feb 18, 2020, 1:21 PM
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whether or not God exists.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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I wonder who the next God will be that folks believe in
Feb 18, 2020, 2:05 PM
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en masse, when they are laughing at our current version of God. Kinda like we do with the Mayans, or Ancient Greeks, or ancient Romans.
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: I wonder who the next God will be that folks believe in
Feb 18, 2020, 2:16 PM
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Worship of the God of the Bible actually predates all of those. So you should ask yourself why he has survived while no one cares about the rest of them anymore.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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Thats what you believe.
Feb 18, 2020, 4:30 PM
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Probably not what they did.
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Oculus Spirit [93662]
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You just made my prayer list.
Feb 18, 2020, 7:38 PM
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J/K, you've been there a while.
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